Monk Feedback

[AstralUniverse]

If doing 20 monk / 10 fighter you gain 1 AC, two pre epic feats to use, an extra APR and a soft +1 to dex/str all at the cost of 20 skill points and 1-2 AB.

Yes and also +3 damage.

[underowl]

And to the monk changes, as a char who is playing a dex level 30 monk the changes do make the character worse as losing that 6AC is very drastic when surrounded by mobs. I think it discourages going pure as ironically you now need to start looking at dips for either more AC or other goodies to give mostly monk builds a boost. COT/fighter mix does seem the way to go from my attempts to rebuild. My suggestion would be to keep some of the AC buffs for monk levels but maybe start them at 15 monk and every 5 thereafter. That would strength monks a chance and have +4ac for pure at 30 rather than +6. Or could just do +1 AC every 10 levels of monk as an alternative.

Addressing your first point, you are worse as an AC tank now than you were before, yes. That is the one nerf that was made. That was the one thing we all sat down and went, "Hmmm. This right here is what's preventing us from making other changes that allow Monk to be a competent melee class." So it was removed.

Now you're forced to make choices that boost those pesky other numbers like AB and Damage (curse those things).

As for Pure? AstralUniverse pointed out above that Pure is still the highest AB iteration. This will continue to be the case. You can dip Fighter or CoT too, yes, and that will drop your AB usually by 1 or 2 while giving you an APR, some saves (if CoT), and I think 3(?) extra damage. And possibly +1 AC. I don't remember all those numbers off the top of my head.


We spoke about possibly offering a modicum of that AC back, but the decision was not to. We don't want to broach the memery of high-AC, high-AB, E-Dodge, Blinding Speed, high-damage nonsense Monks again and we feel that even giving them +3-ish AC back would move us in a poor direction toward that.
[/quote]

The thing is on a pure 30 monk you dont get any more damage than before and you lose 7AC. The extra 1 AC is because dex 26 wis 16 does not net the same AC as dex 22 wis 22 (which was end stats for pure with ki strike 4 and 5). At least that extra 1 AC should be given back to pure monk imo.

In return you get 2AB and epic dodge which is great, but is only effectively 5 ac versus one opponent and doesn't help at all if you are fighting multiples. (the other changes are bug fixes so im not counting those).

That to me is a big net loss for pure 30 monk and means people wont want to play it. I would have preferred pure 30 monk keeps the AC but got AB or damage nerfed a bit as that is more thematic with what a monk should be.

There are some pretty cool builds opened up with the change though with fighter COT mixed in, just not pure monk which is a shame.

[Archnon]

At this point, maybe I should just start a new thread for this but I am going to put it here.

I was wondering if the team had considered redoing the monk unarmed attack bonuses from the old ki strike feats given the 16 wisdom change for 4 and 5. Right now, you get:

+1 at 13
+2 at 18
+3 at 24
+5 at 28

So in order to get a +5 fist weapon, you would need 24 levels and 2 epic feats. Now, typically +5 weapons come in the level 24-28 range with no feats. Rogue at 24, Ranger at 26, Paladin at 26, etc.

I was going to suggest a simple change:
+1 at 13
+2 at 18
+3 at 20
+4 at 24
+5 at 28

Then you can hit +5 fists with either 20 levels and 2 epic feats or 24 levels and 1 epic feat. It might make taking fists just a little more viable given that is the core idea of the class. The damage scaling does not need to change for this.

[Nevrus]

The combat mastery ab bonus is soft and doesn't count for DR. You would still need 2 epic feats to hit +5.

[AstralUniverse]

At this point, maybe I should just start a new thread for this but I am going to put it here.

This is the place for feedback and questions about the new Monk. Feel free to use this thread for such suggestions and reflections from your player experience.

[Archnon]

The combat mastery ab bonus is soft and doesn't count for DR. You would still need 2 epic feats to hit +5.

So do you still get qi strike 1, 2, 3 on the normal progression? What counts towards Dr for monk?

[AstralUniverse]

You get DR pen from ki feats and from your weapon ab modifer - they do not stack - the higher counts. So if you have gloves with +3 ab and ki +3, it's +3 anyway. If you have improved ki +5 then it's +5 (not +8 either).

[Archnon]

You get DR pen from ki feats and from your weapon ab modifer - they do not stack - the higher counts. So if you have gloves with +3 ab and ki +3, it's +3 anyway. If you have improved ki +5 then it's +5 (not +8 either).

Thanks. I had thought combat mastery replaced the qi feats. My confusion. Then my point is no longer valid

[Baseili]

After toying around with a few builds and seeing the bonuses, especially of the 20 monk / 6 fighter / 4 CoT which we'll no doubt be seeing a lot more, it seems that a pure unarmed monk gets very little so to give a little back I'd like to suggest the soft +2 AB at monk 28 be converted to a hard AB bonus.
The benefit of this? 28 monk gets an additional APR to be on level with the aforementioned 20/6/4 build and a potential extra 2 AB from a truestrike potion. It technically would only need to be 1 hard AB to gain the extra attack but felt the +2 at 28 would be a neater change code-wise.

[underowl]

I like that suggestion, would give an incentive back to go pure.

I'm still struggling a bit with the concept of removing the inherent monk AC entirely especially when the new swashbuckler class keeps its inherent AC progression but with full BAB, higher damage output ,and epic dodge. Would seem to be a much better option now to high swash rather than high monk.

I just rebuilt as a monk/COT/fighter though and can confirm it is pretty fun to play with and so far solos at level 30 pretty much the same (or maybe slightly better?) capability than the 30 monk version

[dallion43]

Removed per request.

[underowl]

Pure monk is 7AC worse off than before. It loses 6AC from the changes to remove +1 every 5 levels and also loses an extra 1AC because dex 38 wis 28 nets 1 less AC than dex 34 wis 34.

P.S what is "brace"? i dont understand entirely how that build gets to 63

edit - sorry, i see its not the 30 pure monk version because of the SR sitting at only 30. Assume this is a COT/fighter version with 20 monk only

[AstralUniverse]

I dont want to enter the rabbit hole of SB comparison arguments because I did not play SB... but come on guys.. SB doesnt get nearly as much damage as monks, they dont get all these immunities and an option to invest in spell resistance. You cant compare these classes like that. Swashbuckler is designed to be more tanky in terms of ac and hp than a monk.

I would also like to remind you all that Epic dodge is 90% of time better than 5 ac. Because it doesnt trigger on attack rolls which would miss anyway and it CAN trigger on natural 20s which would hit you throguh any ac score. You can just die if you start spamming healing kits in the middle of a bunch of mobs with high ab more easily than before if you are not careful - you now have less braindead class to play - but you are not weaker by any means.

And good job on that I can only assume is a monk/ftr/cot combination, that's posted above. It looks very nice.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I dont want to enter the rabbit hole of SB comparison arguments because I did not play SB... but come on guys.. SB doesnt get nearly as much damage as monks, they dont get all these immunities and an option to invest in spell resistance. You cant compare these classes like that. Swashbuckler is designed to be more tanky in terms of ac and hp than a monk.

I would also like to remind you all that Epic dodge is 90% of time better than 5 ac. Because it doesnt trigger on attack rolls which would miss anyway and it CAN trigger on natural 20s which would hit you throguh any ac score. You can just die if you start spamming healing kits in the middle of a bunch of mobs with high ab more easily than before if you are not careful - you now have less braindead class to play - but you are not weaker by any means.

And good job on that I can only assume is a monk/ftr/cot combination, that's posted above. It looks very nice.

The problem is monk really only takes off in epic lvls + proper gear and has only one way to stat.

And swashbuckler being designed to be more tanky doesn't mean monk originally was not ac and SR wise.

I mean it doesn't matter. If people really want to, they can go monk swash buckler now and still follow their heart's desire minus speed never ever being uncapped. But it really shoukd not be surprising at all that people are upset how monk has been handled. You might as well delete the class and make a new one for newcomers as the class doesnt represent base nwn in term's of the class' iconic stereotypes: speed, ac, SR

All three have been stabbed and, or gutted. Do we have a viable punching class that gets shoehorned lvl 3 dips for ubab which is inherently really funky to begin with? Yes we do, but is it a monk? Well i guess, but there should be no surprise at all at people's reactions.

Unlike all the new classes that went through beta testing, this morphed class was intentionally forced with pre-meditated stat reassigns (which is really nice of the DMs!) To achieve a certain philosophy upon the class, a philosophy that many long time monk lovers have never been the biggest fans of.

Yes the end game numbers all add up, but why commit to a class that requires you to tri enchant half your stuff just to be on the same level competition while getting a serious lack of cookies like scaling a.c. up to level 20 just so you can play a class that doesnt even embody what you consider to make monks monk anymore?

*edit*

Current monk is fine, I am just explaining why there is going to be obvious long term haters both spoken and unspoken. I personally would prefer if class was designed ground up to be flexible like swash buckler to allow epic dodge as an option for dex but still allow a str path.

[AstralUniverse]

The problem is monk really only takes off in epic lvls + proper gear and has only one way to stat.

What?

I dont understand how you come to this conclusion when monks STILL have higher ac than sword-n-board fighters from the moment they have +1/+1 stat gear. lvl 10 monk is 2 ac lower than before. Its not a big deal. You will now need to use your expertise a bit more.

I said I wont talk about swashbucklers. If you think you can make a fun unarmed monk as a swashbuckler - good luck. Its a different class that does different things so I dont even care if it turns out stronger in some ways even as unarmed, but I would find it weird if it were really true.

About Monk haters - spoken and unspoken.

After the movement speed was taken away, all the previous monk players became a little bit of monk haters (I'm one of them). Now, while I cant speak for others, I've stopped being a monk hater when I realized its a way more functional class, on par with the rest of the classes, while still holding its unique properties and immense building versatility. I truly have sympathy for at least two long time monk player friends of mine who never cared about the mechanical prowess of the class and played it for the RP and considered the movementspeed a great RP enabler and just pure fun. But times are changing and it's time to let this hate go, for me. I hope others will let it go too.

[underowl]

Ok I have what i think is a reasonable suggestion to give back something to pure monk and that is remove improved whirlwind as a free feat at 25 and replace it with a new feat that gives +3 untyped AC called perfect balance. That gates the ac gain at 25 monk and IMO would mean 30 monk looks good again versus fighter/cot dips. There still incentive to go from 25 to 30 because 28 gets lots of goodies and 30 gets an epic bonus feat.

[Freyason]

The problem is monk really only takes off in epic lvls + proper gear and has only one way to stat.

My level 9 halfling unarmed monk is ripping through content, are you saying it's gonna get easier?

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

Wiki:

Lvl 3: gains feat - Monk Speed (Grants a +10% bonus to movement speed at lvls 3, 6, 9, 12, and 15, capping at +50%)

Is this correct or out of date?

[Freyason]

It's correct

[AstralUniverse]

Ok I have what i think is a reasonable suggestion to give back something to pure monk and that is remove improved whirlwind as a free feat at 25 and replace it with a new feat that gives +3 untyped AC called perfect balance. That gates the ac gain at 25 monk and IMO would mean 30 monk looks good again versus fighter/cot dips. There still incentive to go from 25 to 30 because 28 gets lots of goodies and 30 gets an epic bonus feat.

Honestly, as I've stated in the past here and there... and there... and there too...

I hate improved WW. I think it is worthless and that whoever added it to Monk simply had no idea what they were doing, unless their intention was "I will downgrade one of the Monk's abilities 5 levels later after receiving it".

PLEASE remove improved WW
OR
Easy 2da mode to make it an instant action like normal ww.

I do not agree that monk needs any of their lost ac back at lvl 28. With the ab/damage monk can reach now, and with epic dodge in mind, any more ac than this and we would just get dangerously close to the iteration that broke the game.

Is this correct or out of date?

The entire Monk page in the wiki includes the recent update and everything seems correct.

[Archnon]

Thinking about this some more, it seems like even with this shift, there is very little reason to go unarmed for the monk class, even with a pure monk hitting 1d20 damage. For two-weapon, the quarterstaff will still be preferred, or the naginata for strength builds. These get +2 ab and 2 extra attacks per round. Plus they end up with a better crit range, mostly because you can't keen a glove. Not to mention, if you use weapons you suddenly get a set of gloves to add stats to instead of damage. You can also add stats to your weapons, though it is not advised. Perhaps:

-Give monk EWF unarmed at level 21-30 (somewhere)
-Make it so that monk can either get +1 to critical range or +1 to damage multiplier at level 21-30 (somewhere)


Monk's unarmed caps out at 19-20X2 with improved critical. The closest comparison would be bows, which also can't be keened and also cap out at 19-20 but have x3. Further, the 1d20 does not make up for the difference here as you can add a lot of damage to arrows with templates. Just something i'm thinking about.

[underowl]

Monk getting free X3 crit or higher crit range on gloves would make monk fist build too o.p I think. damage is not really that much of an issue with fist builds although your point is valid that q.staff or kama builds also attractive options (especially with ranger crossed).

It would be good though if code could be fixed so unarmed monk could take WM and get x3 fist higher crit range through 7 WM. Nwn has always just been coded badly so gloves don't get treated in same way as other melee weapons

[AstralUniverse]

Monk getting free X3 crit or higher crit range on gloves would make monk fist build too o.p I think. damage is not really that much of an issue with fist builds although your point is valid that q.staff or kama builds also attractive options (especially with ranger crossed).

It would be good though if code could be fixed so unarmed monk could take WM and get x3 fist higher crit range through 7 WM. Nwn has always just been coded badly so gloves don't get treated in same way as other melee weapons

I think both mechanically and thematically monks are already weapon masters of their body. It doesnt have to be identical to how the weapon maser class works mechanically. If you add WM-monk synergy in nwn suddenly you will see people with high saves, high hp, immunity to most crowd control and probably 150-200 damage crits (because I already crit 100+ right now on a monk/ftr and not so rarely) and going weapon master would become the only way to do unarmed monk. I wouldnt want that, personally. What could be nice in that regard is if whirlwind for-free would be at lvl 16 again, to bring back some of the lost monk/wm synergy with weapons.