Arelith

Thematically it makes sense for henchman and party members, and doesn't make sense for summons and enchanted creatures because those creatures are already under complete and total control*

* I don't know how Druid summons work canonically.

Personally, I'd also limit the skill to henchmen and other players.
Not only do summons not need this buff, they're also generally extensions of their summoner's will rather than independent people whose morale (and thus battlefield performance) could be affected by a skilled commander.

I dont believe we need to be making summons any stronger. As pointed out, the boost to summons appears to most benefits classes that didn't even need the help.

As the team is already considering weakening summons (as they are most certainly OP at present IMO), this change surely only complicates matters further. If you weaken summons but boost them with a must have skill, are you really doing anything other than needlessly increasing the skill point tax?

With that said, I appreciate the attempt to make persuade (now leadership) a worthwhile skill. The boost to party members and henchmen seems like a good direction. I'm surprised a bonus to certain skills wasn't rolled out in this first incarnation, namely discipline.

Now that I think about it, I dislike how Leadership ties together 4 separate things:

- buffs to party members
- buffs to henchmen/summons
- more gold from bounties
- more votes

+ all other related class abilities.

The extra votes being tied with buffing summons seems all a little too much. I'm usually someone in favour of collapsing skills into one another, but ... for those classes that need Persuade/Leadership already, this really just makes this skill incredibly awesome. Which maybe is the point, but -

I'd want to either a) axe the buff to summons (make it just henchmen/party members), or b) move the votes to a feat like Epic Reputation or c) move gold from bounties to Appraise.

Seven Sons of Sin wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:11 pm Now that I think about it, I dislike how Leadership ties together 4 separate things:

- buffs to party members
- buffs to henchmen/summons
- more gold from bounties
- more votes

+ all other related class abilities.

The extra votes being tied with buffing summons seems all a little too much. I'm usually someone in favour of collapsing skills into one another, but ... for those classes that need Persuade/Leadership already, this really just makes this skill incredibly awesome. Which maybe is the point, but -

I'd want to either a) axe the buff to summons (make it just henchmen/party members), or b) move the votes to a feat like Epic Reputation or c) move gold from bounties to Appraise.

I'm inclined to disagree. It may include all those things, but only in very small doses. Few summons benefit from leadership as it stands, and the bonuses to party members are very minimal. The most worthwhile part is the extra gold or votes for most classes, aside from necromancers, warlocks, and blackguards. It doesn't do much for Gate since those mobs are already hasted, and if I recall, the elemental summons don't have the prerequisite intelligence. If we're going to remove some things from it (and I can see the point about it being very broad in focus currently) we should improve some of the other aspects.

So I’ve been playing around on a goblin tribal shaman with persuade and I’m loving the flavor. Finally the great and wise shaman has some flavor for not only boosting his tribals but also boosting his fellow goblins in a second synergy. I’d agree- ditch the summon benefit and leave it to henchmen and party members.

The APR is actually quite handy as far as not needing to worry as much about haste on my tribals- but I generally haste them anyway. I’d actually be a fan of removing the APR for henchmen and giving them something sweet like adds the keen affect to henchmen weapons lol

a shrouded figure wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:10 pm The APR is actually quite handy as far as not needing to worry as much about haste on my tribals- but I generally haste them anyway. I’d actually be a fan of removing the APR for henchmen and giving them something sweet like adds the keen affect to henchmen weapons lol

Because you admit to Hasting them anyway, this is why I think it's fine as is. It adds a benefit without it being a huge boost. They get the extra APR they would from Haste that lasts rounds per level, without the speed and AC bonus. It adds incentive without being game-breaking. In PvP one of the first things people are doing if they can is Haste/Mass Haste so it's not much of a benefit there which is just fine.

Security_Blanket wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:55 pm

a shrouded figure wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:10 pm The APR is actually quite handy as far as not needing to worry as much about haste on my tribals- but I generally haste them anyway. I’d actually be a fan of removing the APR for henchmen and giving them something sweet like adds the keen affect to henchmen weapons lol

Because you admit to Hasting them anyway, this is why I think it's fine as is. It adds a benefit without it being a huge boost. They get the extra APR they would from Haste that lasts rounds per level, without the speed and AC bonus. It adds incentive without being game-breaking. In PvP one of the first things people are doing if they can is Haste/Mass Haste so it's not much of a benefit there which is just fine.

The difference being that with the APR boost you can drop the summon in your opponent's face and settle for a regular haste (that unlike mass haste is wandable and widely accessible to most builds) on yourself while they are struggling with the summon (...and that's assuming that the PvP's not already over at this point). This change does more to PvP tempo than might appear at first glance.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:34 am The difference being that with the APR boost you can drop the summon in your opponent's face and . . .

Plenty of summons do not meet the requirements to benefit from Leadership. If PvP is your concern, the most powerful summons come into play with Haste on them as is.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:34 am. . . settle for a regular haste (that unlike mass haste is wandable and widely accessible to most builds) on yourself while they are struggling with the summon (...and that's assuming that the PvP's not already over at this point). This change does more to PvP tempo than might appear at first glance.

What's stopping your opponent from using the same tricks on you? I don't think the boost is near as big as you might think it is, not when considering the things already available. If it gave players an additional APR that doesn't stack with Haste I'd be inclined to agree. Talking about how OP you are making some summons that no longer get as big a benefit from Haste (after sacrificing the needed skill points to do so) seems redundant when you have players dropping Gate and Epic Dragon Knight.

I really hope summon creature will not be nerfed. I'm already sinking feats to make it more useful, I don't want to have to have a skill as well.

Security_Blanket wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:16 pm

-XXX- wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:34 am The difference being that with the APR boost you can drop the summon in your opponent's face and . . .

Plenty of summons do not meet the requirements to benefit from Leadership. If PvP is your concern, the most powerful summons come into play with Haste on them as is.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:34 am. . . settle for a regular haste (that unlike mass haste is wandable and widely accessible to most builds) on yourself while they are struggling with the summon (...and that's assuming that the PvP's not already over at this point). This change does more to PvP tempo than might appear at first glance.

What's stopping your opponent from using the same tricks on you? I don't think the boost is near as big as you might think it is, not when considering the things already available. If it gave players an additional APR that doesn't stack with Haste I'd be inclined to agree. Talking about how OP you are making some summons that no longer get as big a benefit from Haste (after sacrificing the needed skill points to do so) seems redundant when you have players dropping Gate and Epic Dragon Knight.

The same "both sides can do it, so it's OK" argument can be used to justify an entire list of vanilla mechanics that are generally considered unbalanced and have been altered for Arelith.
I'll list a specific example - vanilla timestop scrolls. Both sides can use them, so it must be OK, right? Wrong! Without getting into further specifics, I'll just say that it does precisely what leadership does in my above example - it condensates tempo by allowing you to achieve the same result in fewer rounds.
Condensing tempo is provably bad for PvP - it makes the encounters too short, unfun and often one-sided.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:48 pm Condensing tempo is provably bad for PvP - it makes the encounters too short, unfun and often one-sided.

Security_Blanket wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:16 pm Talking about how OP you are making some summons that no longer get as big a benefit from Haste (after sacrificing the needed skill points to do so) seems redundant when you have players dropping Gate and Epic Dragon Knight.

The strongest things you are going to have summoned in your face will not be getting an APR boost.

Security_Blanket wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:25 pm

-XXX- wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:48 pm Condensing tempo is provably bad for PvP - it makes the encounters too short, unfun and often one-sided.

Security_Blanket wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:16 pm Talking about how OP you are making some summons that no longer get as big a benefit from Haste (after sacrificing the needed skill points to do so) seems redundant when you have players dropping Gate and Epic Dragon Knight.

The strongest things you are going to have summoned in your face will not be getting an APR boost.

Excluding Warlock & Blackguard summons, right?

Ork wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:59 pm Excluding Warlock & Blackguard summons, right?

If they don't already have Haste, I thought they weren't going to benefit for balance reasons. Wouldn't make much sense either for a Pit Fiend to feel inspired by his mortal summoner.

Since you can lead through intimidation, why not split bonuses between the two skills? A certain amount of Leadership is needed for henchmen but then the bonuses to party can come from Leadership or Intimidate, whichever one is higher. Or maybe they give different bonuses, Leadership gives defensive bonuses like saves, ac, regen, etc. Then Intimidate can give bonus ab, damage, save vs fear, etc.

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If they don't already have Haste, I thought they weren't going to benefit for balance reasons. Wouldn't make much sense either for a Pit Fiend to feel inspired by his mortal summoner.
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i think if a summon isnt hasted thats when it benefits from the 1 extra APR. It just doesnt stack with haste.

As mentioned, blackguard and warlock summons benefit from this. Vampires too.

That is my biggest pet peeve with this otherwise very neat update - it buffs the Blackguard class both directly and indirectly.

Directly because they have infinite castings of unhasted top tier summons that will get full benefit from leadership.

Indirectly, because they're one of the ridiculously high AC build classes that just doesn't care abou how many attacks enemy summons have.


Seeing how leadership is planned to be implemented for them to count as a class skill, I assume that this is all intentional.
I just don't understand why they'd deliberately buff a class that is already considered OP, especially when built around DEX. It's nothing major, but kind of feels like adding the proverbial insult to the injury.

Somewhat I'm going to assume and hope that the leadership feature had been in the pipeline before the div/dex meta became apparent and that there's a nerf planned to these builds.

-XXX- wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:09 am
That is my biggest pet peeve with this otherwise very neat update - it buffs the Blackguard class both directly and indirectly.

Directly because they have infinite castings of unhasted top tier summons that will get full benefit from leadership.

Indirectly, because they're one of the ridiculously high AC build classes that just doesn't care abou how many attacks enemy summons have.

While technically true that blackguards have infinite castings of Epic Fiend - the ability is on a 6 minute cooldown.

Can we see this dex blackguard build that's doing the heavy lifting in this argument?

I strongly suspect it's nowhere near as good as we are lead to believe.

CNS wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:28 pm Can we see this dex blackguard build that's doing the heavy lifting in this argument?

I strongly suspect it's nowhere near as good as we are lead to believe.

You'd be wrong. 51ab. 75ac. And a pocket WM. You're able to easily max STR due to a free +4 from bull str that stacks, so the damage isn't bad either.

Ork wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:53 pm

CNS wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:28 pm Can we see this dex blackguard build that's doing the heavy lifting in this argument?

I strongly suspect it's nowhere near as good as we are lead to believe.

You'd be wrong. 51ab. 75ac. And a pocket WM. You're able to easily max STR due to a free +4 from bull str that stacks, so the damage isn't bad either.

So again, what's the build?

Fully off the top of my head a, say, 16 bg/4 rogue/10 whatever (it's pdk but I'm not adding pdk math to this because I'm supposed to be working)

10 base+13ish dex+4 haste/bspeed+3 helm+3 vest+6 tower (parry if you're nasty)+1 boots+4 barkskin+6 tumble = 50 encounter ac (blinding speed lasts long enough for most fights for sure).

+8-9 depending on your initial stats, from div shield. You can push dex and cha higher by dumping con since healpots are a thing and magic executes aren't.

59ish ac, IE it to 69 (nice) while your summon yotes people.

DISCLAIMER: this was put together with no references, from memory, without some of the necessary math like armor skin etc. Probably there's an edodge version. Pdk boosts make it stronger.

If you do not get your own 5% speed buff from leadership then everybody's moving a bit faster than you.

CorsicanDoge wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:46 pm If you do not get your own 5% speed buff from leadership then everybody's moving a bit faster than you.

Owned.
In all seriousness maybe this could apply to the leader but only if they've got players, not npcs?

+1 small, +1 shield pot, +1ma, +2 armor skin, & +1 dex with halfling