Arelith

If noted already above, I apologize - I will admit to not reading every comment.

I recently visited the Oasis in Sibayad after a long hiatus. It is littered with potted plants. From a pure RP standpoint, unless someone is RPing that they come out and water the plants frequently, not sure how they survive in a desert. I have actually enjoyed finding some statues and "hidden" outdoor bases before. But mind should be given to the reasonableness of a fixture in the location it is placed. Just like the dessert flower pots, things like a fabric couch in the forest will most likely have mold, animal excrement, and other problems in a very short period of time unless meticulously cared for.

SkipiusEsq wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:24 pm If noted already above, I apologize - I will admit to not reading every comment.

I recently visited the Oasis in Sibayad after a long hiatus. It is littered with potted plants. From a pure RP standpoint, unless someone is RPing that they come out and water the plants frequently, not sure how they survive in a desert. I have actually enjoyed finding some statues and "hidden" outdoor bases before. But mind should be given to the reasonableness of a fixture in the location it is placed. Just like the dessert flower pots, things like a fabric couch in the forest will most likely have mold, animal excrement, and other problems in a very short period of time unless meticulously cared for.

While I have been reading this thread every other day, I came back to it today to finally make a reply for this very reason.

There is no two ways about it. The Oasis in Sibayad looks like absolute garbage from a roleplay standpoint. Admittedly, yes, a strong opinion, but the likely intended aesthetic of the deserts of Sibayad have been totally ruined. Everyday it seems to be gradually getting worse with the amount of potted plants and statues littering the zones.

Someone needs to grab the creator of all these fixtures, look at them, and tell them to stop because it is just becoming too much. It needs to come from an administrator, because very few characters can justify making this approach IC.

I'm seeing some people suggesting elaborate systems and mechanics to deal with this issue. Please, let's not complicate things so needlessly. The fixture system is simple and it works very well as it is, no need to turn it into a big headache for everyone just because Bob and Joe are ruining your immersion with their potted flowers. Report it and let the DMs handle it. These are my two cents.

There was a flower garden in Wharftown that was just as ugly and out of place. Thankfully it seems to slowly be disappearing.

Good Character wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:20 pm While I have been reading this thread every other day, I came back to it today to finally make a reply for this very reason.

There is no two ways about it. The Oasis in Sibayad looks like absolute garbage from a roleplay standpoint. Admittedly, yes, a strong opinion, but the likely intended aesthetic of the deserts of Sibayad have been totally ruined. Everyday it seems to be gradually getting worse with the amount of potted plants and statues littering the zones.

Someone needs to grab the creator of all these fixtures, look at them, and tell them to stop because it is just becoming too much. It needs to come from an administrator, because very few characters can justify making this approach IC.

Yeah I do think excessive "beautification" can be a detriment to the game. Some areas are meant to be harsh and ugly and brutal and the people who are attracted that area like it that way. I understand someone's RP might be about bringing beauty to the world but "eye of the beholder" and all that.

Party in the forest at midnight wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:07 pm

Marsi wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:14 am The most offensive fixture-spam I find is the concerted effort of a player or group of players who, for lack of meaningful numbers or influence, wish to assert their existence and legitimacy in a safer, unimpeachable and more asynchronous way. They're persistent and can ensure the longevity of their creations for literal years. They too will (ironically) police the areas they've colonized from the placement of outsider fixtures, as if they are the true custodians. If you try to dismantle their sick little hive, good luck. It will cost your character all their cachet, and keep them engaged in a protracted whinging fest. It will be all for nothing because the fixture colonists will simply wait out their opponents, and move back in as soon as they move on.

Lowering a fixture limit doesn't really stop these kinds of players. In fact it makes it easier for them to take over an area. It's something that a System™ can't really mediate. Fixture spam, much like quarter hogging, is something we should be more comfortable to report and call out, even if it's technically not against the rules.

I like how everyone is dancing around naming places, but the problem players are so notorious for doing it I have a good idea of where you mean. I thought it was really cool when I was a new player, like there was some sort of active group doing something in the space. But I never saw them, and have never seen or heard of them- Except when they come to defend their fixtures and get angry at anyone else RPing there.

In short, it may be a little too on the nose to confront so openly. Always sensitive to beard the lion in his own den, as it were.

I speaking at this moment not as a developer talking of feasibility - I am not a coder. I do lore, npcs, and areas sometimes.

But I feel that a system we have for fixtures already - plant fixtures in particular could offer a better way of handling them.

I think most places we could turn off fixtures - and instead paint targets / waypoints / whatever that are "fixture area only."

Used in shared places where there are say multiple quarters this would be extremely helpful because we could paint the rooms with the tag and then instead of shared space alone - each painted tag could only have X amount of fixtures and so we never have to feel guilty to putting stuff places.

I think settlements should largely have their own tags tied to the government at large.

Everything else, barring areas that are public interiors like theaters, could just be turned off from fixtures or only one or two could be placed.

I think the only system that will work is one that is controlled by scripts and painted triggers like farming. We no longer have farm plots in our floorboards - the idea could be expanded to normie fixtures to help keep things simple, fair, and uncluttered.

I absolutely adore fixtures and its part of what makes Arelith great and hope they stay largely the same. Just... you know. Limited.

One thing that tends to take me out of the immersion is when you see signs advertising shops. Whether they are along roads, in towns, or other interiors, they amount to nothing more than billboards. Ugly, invasive, big, and dumb billboards. I like to play on Arelith to RP and for the escapism - But getting bombarded by fantasy ads really takes me out of it sometimes.

I mean... speaking purely of my own opinions here...

I think that when deciding about whether or not something should be automated or not, we need to ask several questions.

1) How wide spread is the problem?
2) How serious is the problem?
3) How easy to police is the problem?
And also
4) By automating the problem, how much creative capacity are we taking away from the players.

For me...

1) We don't tend to get any reports about fixtues in stupid areas. I can't think of any we've had recently anyway.
2) So either it's not wide spread or it's not serious enough that people actually think to report it.
3) It's pretty easy to police. We can notice the issue ourselves, DM side (or even player side) and/or players can report it. It's not exactly something that is hidden or secret or such.
4) The big one for me - whilst I sort of get that it's wierd having say, 30 fixtures in a dungeon... it's also really cool when you find that secret message board someone has hidden away somewhere... or that tiny, pilgrimaged shrine some pcs use, or that small grave - hidden in a corner to a forgotten player.

For me, then, I would honestly say that it's just something people need to report more, and/or we need to be awear of more.

1) How wide spread is the problem?
- - Personally, I don't see it being widespread. Sure there are some areas of contention where there is just a glut of useless, cookie cutter fixtures but large and short? Not really that big of a spread, and something that coudl be handled on a case by case basis.
2) How serious is the problem?
- - Not. Seriously its one of the last problems on the list when comparing it to all of the other day to day issues in the game.
3) How easy to police is the problem?
- - Really easy. There are already numerous available solutions that don't involve auto-nuking fixtures with set time limits.
And also
4) By automating the problem, how much creative capacity are we taking away from the players.
- - An astronomical amount. Because of the amount of fixtures that do sit relatively unattended for lengthy periods of time, you have items that span back over a decade, fixtures that, honestly are parts of the landscape now and add alot of personality to the world around us. I can't stress it enough that just because one or two people think that this issue is a problem, it would not stifle the entire system.

We should focus on repairing what we have, not rewriting the system to suit the complaints of a few people.

1) We don't tend to get any reports about fixtues in stupid areas. I can't think of any we've had recently anyway.

I think that's because most people, instead of reporting just bash or steal the fixture.

The problem I have is the double standard imposed on fixture spam versus fixture bashing. If Billy fixtureman sets up a 30 fixture camp on his own over the course of a day that's alright, but if Johnny fixture hater comes along and bashes the fixture camp he's probably going to get a talking to by the DM's when Billy reports him and get asked to try to engage Billy with some roleplay rather than just taking the initiative to remove the trash fixtures while Billy is under no obligation to interact with anyone as long as he has the resources and crafting points to keep putting up fixtures.

Nitro describes the situation perfectly.

What I want to add is that, giving DMs yet another task is probably a bad idea, especially as it does nothing but add subjectivity (which should be eliminated as much as possible), extra workload and extra time for cases to be resolved. It's reactive rather than preventive. Moreover, reducing the number of reasons for players to report is always welcome. Players don't enjoy writing reports. They don't play a game to write reports. The fewer reports and the fewer reasons to write one, the better.

The one question that should be asked in these situations should really be: why wouldn't we automate it?

If something gets reported often, yes, we might have reason to believe there's a serious issue at hand. But a low number of reports does not at all necessarily guarantee that the problem is not a serious one. To base the severity of a problem on the number of reports on it is a fallacy. In this particular case, players just bash fixtures or steal them. It's faster and takes way less time and effort. In fact, if I was to report every single time I saw a (bunch of) useless fixture(s) that shouldn't be there, I would have zero actual playing time left. Besides, there have definitely been cases where a DM wrongfully picked the side of the player who cluttered the area(s) with (a) dozen(s) dull, out-of-place, description-less fixtures, instead of the side of the basher (with the typical excuse being that bashing fixtures is "not nice").

Red Ropes' proposal seems like a very solid one to me, with only good sides to it: (1) people can keep placing fixtures, (2) areas won't be made as ugly by players, (3) areas won't have unused, outdated fixtures lingering for months/years too long, (4) there's a minimal amount of work for DMs and players in terms of case reports and (5, bonus) my screen won't be completely turquoise in every area every time I press Tab. The ideal outcome.

A lot of the suggestions posed here would "solve the problem", but they'd also make fixtures pointless for the people who make them. I know I'm more sentimental than others about player stuff, but I think the freedom Arelith provides is a big draw for most of us.

I don't agree with the notion that fixtures are an after-the-fact eyesore polluting the "original vision" of the landscape, that any amount of them is inherently a bad thing. That feels very cynical to me. The design philosophy has likely changed, but I recall Artos actually stating that areas were designed with players in mind and how they might inhabit them.

There is absolutely a breaking point where the wild and romantic quality of an area is tarnished and domesticated by too much stuff but fixtures can give a place a meaning, a point, and a history in a way that developer-placed items almost can't.

Geofencing fixtures just totally neuters the drama and power they can have. A finely made public fixture can become a place of pilgrimage, a recurring set-piece inherited character to character, or simply a connection to the past. Factions have been created over them. Creating a distinction between where fixtures can be placed and where they can't waters down the "possibility" of an area. It delineates space that is for ad hoc storytelling and space that exists only for utility (travel/ grinding). Not to mention the scope of fixtures become constrained by the imagination of the developers setting the tags.

To be more constructive-

There was a suggestion a while ago that asked we limit fixtures per character, globally and also by area. This serves every use case in my mind. Quality fixture builders aren't constrained or discouraged, fixture colonists have to take extra, and more easily punishable, steps to get around character limits, and everyone thinks twice about putting down that pointless sign or alchemy table. It wouldn't even need to be a very high number - a great fixture builder might only produce five or so "worthwhile" fixtures in their career. Factions require a lot of fixtures so it would mean the leader is forced to delegate property rights, and that small factions can't have an outsized footprint and try to play fixture imperialism. As much as I detest message board bureaucracy, they and other information store fixtures like bookshelves should probably be exempt.

If we must automate the policing of fixtures, I think a non-intrusive way it could be done is that, on a player or area level, the sudden placement of many fixtures throws up a flag internally for investigation. It would be immediately obvious whether an eyesore fixture garden is at hand or a player collective are putting together a cool library or something.

I don't really like the idea of fixture deterioration, but I think it could be implemented well. Let domestic fixtures like chairs, tables and workstations deteriorate fairly quickly, while more impressive/ resource-heavy fixtures take longer or don't deteriorate at all. I wouldn't want something like a painting or a statue ever disappearing, but I don't think I've ever seen consequential roleplay revolve around a wooden chair. The problem with out of control fixtures is that there's very little buy-in. With deterioration, the time you have to spend maintaining your creations hinges on how many you create, or how many players find your work interesting.

Deterioration, ironically, would actually give a lot of meaning to a faction like the Knights of the Road. Fixture maintenance becomes a public service in a real sense instead of a strange hobby!

Nitro wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:27 am

1) We don't tend to get any reports about fixtues in stupid areas. I can't think of any we've had recently anyway.

I think that's because most people, instead of reporting just bash or steal the fixture.

The problem I have is the double standard imposed on fixture spam versus fixture bashing. If Billy fixtureman sets up a 30 fixture camp on his own over the course of a day that's alright, but if Johnny fixture hater comes along and bashes the fixture camp he's probably going to get a talking to by the DM's when Billy reports him and get asked to try to engage Billy with some roleplay rather than just taking the initiative to remove the trash fixtures while Billy is under no obligation to interact with anyone as long as he has the resources and crafting points to keep putting up fixtures.

Having to file reports on the forum instead of in-client is itself going to filter out a lot of them for things that are perceived of as “not that big a deal”. Perhaps that’s desirable to the team, as it decreases their work load, but it also means I’m less likely to bother fighting executive dysfunction long enough to report someone running around named “Naruto Sasuke”

I skimmed through this thread and did not see this posted so I'll put it up here.

The one thing that drives me crazy is these fixtures I see lately where the NAME of the fixture is like 2 paragraphs long. The name of your fixture should not be

"A beautiful statue depicting an elven warrior in full regalia and wielding a shining sword. The warrior stands facing in the direction of the rising sun as if to greet it each morning with a smile on his face.

At the base of the statue is a small plaque with the inscription "yadda yadda yadda. . . "

Keep all that in the description!

Cybren wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:03 pmHaving to file reports on the forum instead of in-client is itself going to filter out a lot of them for things that are perceived of as “not that big a deal”. Perhaps that’s desirable to the team, as it decreases their work load, but it also means I’m less likely to bother fighting executive dysfunction long enough to report someone running around named “Naruto Sasuke”

I wonder if an in-game "-report" command would be useful? Or it might just increase DM workload unsustainably.

Marsi wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:59 am
To be more constructive-

There was a suggestion a while ago that asked we limit fixtures per character, globally and also by area. This serves every use case in my mind. Quality fixture builders aren't constrained or discouraged, fixture colonists have to take extra, and more easily punishable, steps to get around character limits, and everyone thinks twice about putting down that pointless sign or alchemy table. It wouldn't even need to be a very high number - a great fixture builder might only produce five or so "worthwhile" fixtures in their career. Factions require a lot of fixtures so it would mean the leader is forced to delegate property rights, and that small factions can't have an outsized footprint and try to play fixture imperialism. As much as I detest message board bureaucracy, they and other information store fixtures like bookshelves should probably be exempt.

I love this suggestion. This is the best one so far.


I'm hesitant to report fixtures. I did once when they were NPC ignoring and nothing came of it, and sometimes when I report actual issues I'm told "This isn't a problem but we'll look into it anyways," and it's really disheartening to get a reply like that. Fixtures I can actually do something about personally, unless someone is going obscenely over the top with dumping flowers everywhere.

Baron Saturday wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:16 pm

Cybren wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:03 pmHaving to file reports on the forum instead of in-client is itself going to filter out a lot of them for things that are perceived of as “not that big a deal”. Perhaps that’s desirable to the team, as it decreases their work load, but it also means I’m less likely to bother fighting executive dysfunction long enough to report someone running around named “Naruto Sasuke”

I wonder if an in-game "-report" command would be useful? Or it might just increase DM workload unsustainably.

something I meant to put on the suggestion forum before it got locked was having a -report function in game that allows you to enter a brief description of the behavior you are reporting, and then a forum bot PM's you so you can add more detail. (similarly -recommend can do the same thing for positive behaviors)

I think there certainly is good question being skirted around in this conversation -

"What makes a good fixture?"

Maybe there are people out there who would have hated Dante's Akadian shrine in the Skull Crags as being out of place, obtrusive, and "why on earth would the viper monks let this crazy cleric build build these giant weird stones?"

I wish there would be an enforceable descriptions on fixtures, and enforceable minimum limit. My definition of "litter" is lack of vision, and lack of care to make the thing for an audience. Make it unique, you know?

Also I wish we could differentiate between "aesthetic" fixtures and others. Like potted plants look pretty. Flowers look pretty. These fixtures also are some of worst criminals of "litter." If it were me, I'd cut them all. But maybe we can start restricting fixtures that are primarily used for an aesthetic purpose.

For whatever reason, we probably all unanimously agree that a description-less Statue is more egregious than a description-less Flower Pot.

When I go cleaning up litter fixtures I usually target signs, excessive lamp posts along roads, border markers well beyond borders, and flowers if there's more than a few of them. Maybe furniture too if it's haphazardly plunked down, like chairs being left around randomly in front of dungeons. The more of the same fixture plunked down in an area, the more likely I am to clean it up. I really dislike abandoned "guard camps" that nobody ever RPs in, but those have enough fixtures in them that it's harder to clean those up. Guard camps are basically border markers, except with more fixtures. It's land claim via fixtures.

I usually don't touch altars, message boards, book shelves, graves, or things that add to an area. Generally art is pretty tasteful, but, I don't want to say I'll never remove it, because some guy will someday decide to put 60 statues in a zone.

Altars are a bit complex. I'm a lot more forgiving about default name/undescribed altars. If it's hidden or out of the way and has the default name/description, I get it, you worship Cyric and don't want your altar to be bashed. But if it's plunked down in the middle of the road, that's another story. But even then, maybe this is how a priest is trying to spread their cult- leave evil altars around. With all of the other fixture spam around, I don't really waste my 24 hour cleanup cooldown on an altar when there are advertisements in need of yeeting.