Specialist Wizards

[Hunter548]

Necro will get a few modification as well as Garr working on something new for ESF. I'll work on the tyrantfog and I should probably just cut WoF since it never seems to do anything ever.

If you swapped the levels you get the tyrantfog and the zombie warrior, that would probably be the best answer. The zombie warrior is, honestly, too strong for the level you get him (level 5) while the Tyrantfog is passable but a downgrade from the warrior for some inexplicable reason.

[Skarain]

To clarify, For what little it is worth, i enjoy the 2 min duration scry over 1 minute one as a Sorcerer Illusionist/Diviner who have no option to remake for a longer duration.

I use Scry both to find people and to.... well, divine on people. Especially since I do have Illusion aswell, 2 minutes make it more possible to observe for potential reactions when you use your -project_image projection in "Tricky" ways. Or as you said, 1 minute when divining people is too short.

Would hate to see the 2 minutes reverted back to 1, but there may be people in the other camp who think otherwise. Ultimately, there are several different Diviner types who use their skill in different ways, each with their own preference.

[Aren]

Necro will get a few modification as well as Garr working on something new for ESF. I'll work on the tyrantfog and I should probably just cut WoF since it never seems to do anything ever.

If you swapped the levels you get the tyrantfog and the zombie warrior, that would probably be the best answer. The zombie warrior is, honestly, too strong for the level you get him (level 5) while the Tyrantfog is passable but a downgrade from the warrior for some inexplicable reason.

Tyrantfog has more DR, and the disease cloud works wonders for tanking. (I do agree that it is a downgrade, but it has its uses)

[-XXX-]

In my experience as a diviner (I played a fairly well known one), I felt that the 1 minute was way too short and felt extra lame every time I had to scry more than once in a row. I never felt I wanted to scry someone for only 20-30 seconds. I think I'll send it back to 1min but give the option for 2 minutes or 4 minutes (for diviners only).

I find myself using -scry to simply locate someone most of the time. The extended duration is a detriment when using scrying for that.
Having an option to adjust the scrying duration would have been great!

Furthermore, between the introduction of a cooldown and the addition of more scryproof areas, I think that it might be also the time to revisit scrying counterplay, since one of the means to block scrying is a low level spell that most PCs use as one of the default wards for their grinding setup - so yes, most scrying attempts get blocked unwittingly and by accident.

Why can't we have a similarly available (also scrollable, wandable, potionable...) spell that specifically serves for just that sole purpose instead?

[Party in the forest at midnight]

In my experience as a diviner (I played a fairly well known one), I felt that the 1 minute was way too short and felt extra lame every time I had to scry more than once in a row. I never felt I wanted to scry someone for only 20-30 seconds. I think I'll send it back to 1min but give the option for 2 minutes or 4 minutes (for diviners only).

Furthermore, between the introduction of a cooldown and the addition of more scryproof areas, I think that it might be also the time to revisit scrying counterplay, since one of the means to block scrying is a low level spell that most PCs use as one of the default wards for their grinding setup - so yes, most scrying attempts get blocked unwittingly and by accident.

Why can't we have a similarly available (also scrollable, wandable, potionable...) spell that specifically serves for just that sole purpose instead?

This would be very nice. It is extremely frustrating playing a mundane and having to use an imp invis wand every 7 minutes on myself and anyone I'm talking with. Any sort of item that lets me ward an area against scrying even for 30 minutes would be a nice improvement.

[-XXX-]

In my experience as a diviner (I played a fairly well known one), I felt that the 1 minute was way too short and felt extra lame every time I had to scry more than once in a row. I never felt I wanted to scry someone for only 20-30 seconds. I think I'll send it back to 1min but give the option for 2 minutes or 4 minutes (for diviners only).

Furthermore, between the introduction of a cooldown and the addition of more scryproof areas, I think that it might be also the time to revisit scrying counterplay, since one of the means to block scrying is a low level spell that most PCs use as one of the default wards for their grinding setup - so yes, most scrying attempts get blocked unwittingly and by accident.

Why can't we have a similarly available (also scrollable, wandable, potionable...) spell that specifically serves for just that sole purpose instead?

This would be very nice. It is extremely frustrating playing a mundane and having to use a [redacted] wand every 7 minutes on myself and anyone I'm talking with. Any sort of item that lets me ward an area against scrying even for 30 minutes would be a nice improvement.

IMO you WANT something that wards your character (not the area) for the cases when you wish to go through multiple areas unobserved.
I was merely pointing out that ATM there's a low level spell that both does it all AND negates an epic feat as a byproduct.

[Nitro]

I'd consider just giving scry the P&P treatment. Make it an actual spell, add a will save component and other spells to block scrying. Give spell focuses in divination bonuses to either the will save or penetrating anti-scry spells/locations, or both.

[DangerDolphin]

I'd consider just giving scry the P&P treatment. Make it an actual spell, add a will save component and other spells to block scrying. Give spell focuses in divination bonuses to either the will save or penetrating anti-scry spells/locations, or both.

This was in the original draft but removed because people tend to use scry as a gank tool and for outing low level necromancers/warlocks instead of to listen in on roleplay.

We won't be adding ways to penetrate scry protection unless it's reworked to hide location information (In which case we can also extend duration, make it possible to cancel, etc)

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Scrying is an awful mechanic that makes it difficult to do cloak and dagger on a non-caster. Making it harder to block scrying will make that worse. And I took abjuration specifically to block scrying, I'll be unhappy if -ward no longer can do that.

[Nitro]

This was in the original draft but removed because people tend to use scry as a gank tool and for outing low level necromancers/warlocks instead of to listen in on roleplay.

We won't be adding ways to penetrate scry protection unless it's reworked to hide location information (In which case we can also extend duration, make it possible to cancel, etc)

Add scry as a spell, remove it from ESF: Divination, will save component with a DC that increases with focuses.
Add Nondetection as a spell, blocks scrying.
Give ESF: Divination the ability to partially penetrate nondetection, giving audio (chat log) only, still needing to get through the will save.

EDIT: Keep -ward as an epic abjuration cookie to completely block scrying.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Rogues inherently have bad will saves. It is extremely painful trying to do cloak and dagger on a rogue because of a 7 minute timer on imp invis wands, you're proposing that rogues can not do cloak and dagger anymore. To do cloak and dagger RP, you need to be able to have secrets. And if you think that people don't learn things from scrying, you've never seen peoples' notebooks full of scry spy records, you've never watched people gang up together to scry every name they know. Running a thieves guild on a rogue means people are going to learn your name and scry you all the time. And scrying can penetrate disguises, so that's not even an option either.

[DangerDolphin]

Please break off into another thread to discuss scrying any further, and focus on other aspects of specialist wizards here for now, so we don't derail Xerah's thread. Thanks!

[Scylon]

Just a couple of notes:

I wouldn't mind seeing Enchantment get high bonus to DCs. If I'm investing into mind controlling mobs I want to be sure it will work.

Necromancy is a it lack luster. I'd rather a 4th summon (like elemental swarm) or a special stream. (skeletons?)

Also Conjure loses far to much from transmutation to make it worth the investment right now. might need a bone.

[Gouge Away]

Just a couple of notes:

I wouldn't mind seeing Enchantment get high bonus to DCs. If I'm investing into mind controlling mobs I want to be sure it will work.

Perhaps an increasing chance to break through an enemy's clarity or mind blank too?

Also Good Hope as a signature spell doesn't seem on the level of Tensers, True Sight, Greater Missile Storm... Would Dominate Person or Mind Fog or something be better?

[Scylon]

Perhaps an increasing chance to break through an enemy's clarity or mind blank too?

Also Good Hope as a signature spell doesn't seem on the level of Tensers, True Sight, Greater Missile Storm... Would Dominate Person or Mind Fog or something be better?

I think breaking immunity to mind spells might be a over the top. maybe a 2nd effect for them that is "lesser" if a target is otherwise immune so they are not totally helpless?

regarding the "spell". I'm thinking a unique enchanter only dominate other spell that on the CD can work on anything, getting up to a level 9 DC, and an extra bonus if you hit level 28.

[Skarain]

Actually, Good Hope is very powerful. However, it requires a group. You "Enhance" your companions, willing or not.

Assuming max leadership ranks, Good Hope is +2 AB, +2 Damage, and at least +5 to...skills and saves(?). In a group setting, that difference matters and allows you and your friends be a lot more efficient.

Even "Epic Save feats" only grant a +4 bonus, and one spell grants party-wide +5 to ALL, not just one save. And Good Hope is not on Breach list so removing it is more difficult.

ESF bonus: Crushing despair gains 2+1 per 10L for a debuff; good hope gains 2+1 per 10 base leadership+Skill Foci ranks for skills/saves; and +1 per 15 base leadership ranks to AB/Damage

I am not entirely sure what "+Skill Foci ranks for skills/saves" mean. You get +1 per SF: Leadership and ESF: Leadership?

[Kalopsia]

ESF bonus: Crushing despair gains 2+1 per 10L for a debuff; good hope gains 2+1 per 10 base leadership+Skill Foci ranks for skills/saves; and +1 per 15 base leadership ranks to AB/Damage

I am not entirely sure what "+Skill Foci ranks for skills/saves" mean. You get +1 per SF: Leadership and ESF: Leadership?

Xerah could probably give more detailed information here, but to me this sounds like base ranks + ranks gained from (epic) skill foci. So the theoretical maximum is 46, which translates into a +3 AB/dmg bonus and +6 to skills & saves (in addition to all the bonuses from Leadership skill).

[Deryliss]

I've been playing a specialist abjurer since a few days after the update was announced, and boy, it's pretty rough. I wasn't quite ready for how much of a sting the loss of Conjuration would be.

Along with the loss of summons (which I was mentally prepared for) ,it's the loss of nearly all 'old reliable' damaging spells that are all inside conjuration. Melf's Acid Arrow is the only wizard infinicast that fills that general purpose spammable role (burning hands has serious problems, such as destroying bodies and loot). Losing flame arrow, black tentacles, acid fog, cloudkill, and a few other mainstays was a serious blowback on top.

Now all this is fine, and is core NWN behaviour, and is not really the issue. I think the issue is the Abjurer benefits (while theoretically strong) don't really translate well to actual play except for the free feat (AD: Abj) and the CL bonus passive, and they certainly are not making up for what is lost by losing the conjuration school.

The signature spell (Globe of Invulnerability) just isn't very good, especially being that it casts not extended and only lasts rounds/lvl on a 3 minute cooldown. That said, it may be the best low level 'abjuration' spell, and I'm unsure what to suggest here, but it definitely is a feature of the path that I have quickly stopped using.

The real treat is, of course, the +2 breached effects with greater dispelling and mords. This is probably the headliner that makes people look at Abjuration and say "yep, that's good, carry on", but in practice the bonus is difficult to capitalize on given that dispel effects are friendly-fire enabled. It's a bonus that works in a cinematic pvp environment where the two opposing parties are lined up across from each other and the mages can open up with a quick mass dispel to weaken the opposition, but in most scenarios you're risking causing as much damage to your own team as to the enemies.


The sadness is that none of this helps in a pve environment. Only yesterday I had to sit in the corner and watch as my party fought a desperate battle in Sibayad's black fortress, utterly unable to help other than making sure to refresh mass haste. Evocation spells are laughably insufficient on their own, and in Arelith there's no better use for spell slots than a pet and some buffs to enhance it with. I can't even risk throwing a greater dispelling in for the reasons mentioned above, as generally pve enemies don't rely on buffs to be badass, except in the case of 'gold' named enemies and the occasional cleric-type spamming stoneskin.


I'd like to finish off with a suggestion on what to change, but I'm a bit apprehensive about giving specifics as people's emotions will surely be strong around the power of mords in a pvp setting. I'd like to see something done that accomplishes both:

a) A clear pve 'goal' for the abjurer, other than being a haste-bot, since the loss of conjuration means the loss of every powerful pet option + nearly every spell that's actually worth the spell slot. This also applies possibly to the other conjuration-losing schools.
b) Being fairly balance neutral in a pvp setting, so as not to disrupt the delicate balance of the ward meta.


Some possible points of approach:
- A look at the non-conjuration, non-necromancy pets (the 'blade' line and the 'shades' line) as a way to make life a bit easier without conjuration around. Shades are such a good option but the rounds/lvl reduction in Arelith makes them nonviable, and Black Blade of Disaster is conjuration despite being probably the coolest fix for 'not having a pet but needing one right now because things are looking bad')
- Some way to avoid disrupting your own party's wards? (perhaps make the bonus breach effect only affect enemies, or even better but possibly pvp-troublesome would be having 'dispels no longer affect party members' as a passive instead of the CL boost, but I don't know if that's even possible)

EDIT: Removed the suggestion to replace Globe of Invulnerability.

[Deryliss]

A quick update: After a bit of leveling I went into the Deep Wells for the first time yesterday, and it only reinforced my opinion that there's something fundamentally broken with any wizard spec that bans Conjuration (absent Necromancy as a replacement).

With the immensely diminished opportunities for resting I found myself not only having to ration spell slot usage only for emergency situations but eventually running out entirely regardless. For a period of about an hour and a half realtime I was of no use to my party other than infinicasting Blindness/Deafness. The whole time I felt like a useless burden to my team, which consisted of gish builds with wand/scroll lore support and an infinicast sorcerer and thusly able to effectively thrive in the eternal slog of non-rested areas given an ample enough supply of coffee and wand charges.

The only upside is that I've somewhat changed my mind on Globe of Invulnerability. It's fine for what it does, and it will eventually last long enough for near-permanent uptime.

At this point I'm considering a remake from level 1 to swap to Enchantment or Illusion, which would be a shame given this is my Guldorand Advanced Start Award character, but I don't think this sort of play is going to be sustainable in the long run, especially for a character specifically created for exploring the Deep Wells.

[-XXX-]

A quick update: After a bit of leveling I went into the Deep Wells for the first time yesterday, and it only reinforced my opinion that there's something fundamentally broken with any wizard spec that bans Conjuration (absent Necromancy as a replacement).

With the immensely diminished opportunities for resting I found myself not only having to ration spell slot usage only for emergency situations but eventually running out entirely regardless. For a period of about an hour and a half realtime I was of no use to my party other than infinicasting Blindness/Deafness. The whole time I felt like a useless burden to my team, which consisted of gish builds with wand/scroll lore support and an infinicast sorcerer and thusly able to effectively thrive in the eternal slog of non-rested areas given an ample enough supply of coffee and wand charges.

The only upside is that I've somewhat changed my mind on Globe of Invulnerability. It's fine for what it does, and it will eventually last long enough for near-permanent uptime.

At this point I'm considering a remake from level 1 to swap to Enchantment or Illusion, which would be a shame given this is my Guldorand Advanced Start Award character, but I don't think this sort of play is going to be sustainable in the long run, especially for a character specifically created for exploring the Deep Wells.

I wholeheartedly agree with all of the sentiments above and more. IMO this stems from the team's decision to steer away from infini casting in favor of vancian spellcasting and is something that I have been fervently criticizing for years now.

While I can see that the decision was made with the emphasis on preserving PvP balance, the vast majority of the subsequently added PvE content shows no signs of any effort to even remotely accommodate the concept of vancian spellcasting - the dungeons are bigger, contain more spawns and are riddled with no rest areas.
Tackling it solo often means slowly dying inside while watching your summon to eat through hordes of hostile NPCs at the pace of a senile turtle (assuming that we're talking about monsters that the summon can still handle - otherwise there's the hard stop sign for you). Doing it in a party often comes with the realization that the character can contribute very little over the course of the dungeon crawl - even any magical wards provided often expire long before the expedition is over.

Traditional mages ATM feel like a socializer tailored classes meant to level primarily off RPR with some tools geared towards mercantile RP and the odd PvP encounter (yes, you can grind RDI and Aurilites to oblivion, but those are old and relatively short dungeons that can get boring after a while).
Arcane classes tailored for PvE seem to be the spellsword and true flame sorcerers.

[Skibbles]

[the posts]

Quite honestly what you're experiencing is probably just the average wizard in PvE.

Conjuration is incredibly important in the early levels, but once you get around into the epics you'll probably find that it's really not such a great loss as your summon creation IX gets obliterated in moments. Gate is nice, to be missed, but not crippling to be without.

You're playing the long game in other words.

Being a Wizard in PvE is, how do I say this, incredibly awful. The wizard's real value in PvE is jamming as much haste/mass haste/improved invis/zoo spells into their spellbook as they can and then standing around watching the fighters do the rest. There can occasionally be more nuance than that, but I'm speaking in general terms.

(Indeed as XXX put it while I was making this post: "Tackling it solo often means slowly dying inside while watching your summon to eat through hordes of hostile NPCs at the pace of a senile turtle," couldn't be more accurate.)

Wizard is a support class, like healer, and so their value ranges in importance.

It's not all bad, however, and you might find that the insane power of just one of your Mordenkainen's Disjunctions will make quite a lot of friends when you get to the higher levels.

[Deryliss]

I very much realize I'm preaching to the choir here, and I appreciate the replies

I can't thank enough the various players that have been enduring the presence of my wizard as little more than a mass haste totem, and I've been trying my very best to at least provide fun in-combat RP and the occasional clutch mind fog + confusion to justify my presence.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is.. if we're doing this cool overhaul of wizards, with the intention that more folks should be playing them, perhaps there's room for a deeper look at what wizards represent in the pve environment that isn't limited to a buffbot. For reference, I've played both a Healer-path Cleric and an EDR mono-druid, and those two were both much better summoners and much better buffers while having in-combat utility to boot through such wonders as Storm of Vengeance, Word of Faith, Stonehold, etc.

Though I do have one question that is more on-topic for the specialist wizard discussion, one which I'm hoping has an illuminated answer that I can't see due to inexperience and lack of knowledge - what exactly is the use case for the ultra-mords? The only thing I can imagine it as is as an opener for mass pvp while lines are still drawn and the chance for friendly-fire is minimized. Most pve encounters are messy jumbles and a danger-close ultra-mord is just going to strip your entire party's defensives. Further, with some exceptions, pve enemies seem to rely much more on hard stats and innate immunities than things you can dispel.

Once more, however, I very much appreciate the kind replies.

[Xerah]

As Skibbles said, the only thing you're not doing in those cases is moving your summon around. Wizard provides one of the most damage bonuses of any single class by a single casting of mass haste if you're hitting 3 or more melee/archers. That's enough to justify your presence. And that's really all you do in PvE anyway; for the most part, you don't want to do anything to draw agro, which is why blindness/deafness is actually pretty useful.

Also, you can target a character with mords that isn't going to hit your party.

I do think that leadership is an option with wizards. I know it's not a class skill but you can multiclass for it when you need it. I solo leveled a rogue on henchmen (Back when it was just the darrowdeep ones) and that work really well.

[Spriggan Bride]

I would say this. Enchantment is my favorite spell school but I would not play an enchantment specialist in its current incarnation.

(SNIP - I was wrong on that point!)

I think of and would be drawn to enchanters as mind-mages. Currently the specialty with Good Hope and leadership bonus makes them feel more like caster bards. I understand the appeal and that’s probably the intent of the design but I wouldn’t be interested in playing that way. That’s partly situational as I can’t usually play for more than a couple of hours at a time and epic large party dungeon dives never happen for me so I don’t heavily value playing support characters— when I party up it’s in small scrappy groups and I need to be offense as well as hastebot. But it’s also just because like I said that’s not what I want from a wizard specializing in my favorite school (and that’s okay - I will just play something else. I am not saying this to argue every little point just offer feedback where there seems to be a venue for it and say what I would like to see in an enchanter).

[Xerah]

Good hope is not a wizard spell. No wizard can cast it EXCEPT for an enchantment specialist. Enchantment specialists also cast a better version of it (bonus AB, damage, and saves).

Yes, the design is somewhere around a bard style flavour with the goodhope representing a type of bard song. Just like transmuter is trying to create a new design with it being an in-between wizard and spellsword.