Arelith

-XXX- wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:12 pm

Aren wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:48 pm Just remove it from monks. They are the main issue.
They already get 70 AC, silly saves and mind immunity.
Take away Edodge from monks. Please. Force them to do ye olde rogue/SD multi class split, if they want Edodge.
Make them choose between e-dodge and damage/ab.

Yeah, yet another thing that spins out of control with monks.
I wonder if we might have finally reached the point to have the "remove monks" talk.

Monks currently are so off the charts, it’s silly. I don’t and won’t advocate removal - but I sincerely think they have been given way too much. To my knowledge there’s even an approved suggestion to further give pure monks an extra feat at 28? (Unless that already has been implemented).

Ahh yes, the next mechanical boogeyman that must be purged for server “health” has been chosen! Let us move swiftly and without mercy lest high AC builds and epic dodge ruin the integrity of our role play!

Thank you for sharing Gron. It makes me feel better to know some in leadership find the lvl 30 pvp benchmark for balance a tedious and cold way to frame mechanical discussions on the server. I have been feeling this way for a long time. All this math representing pvp in a hypothetical vacuum by the top 5% of builds is driving sweeping changes. It’s like the server’s cultural obsession to theorycraft niche pvp scenarios, that many never even encounter, in the interest of advocating for mechanical changes.

I’ll be playing a cleric or a str build until I feel it’s safe to build something else that might not provoke the metaphorical nerf mob.

Heavy monk gets the same damage bonus on a dex build as a two hand str build. That's solely down to Arelith changes. If you're going to give them edodge, unbreachable SR, great AB on top of all the things they already have, perhaps don't give them the ability to also truck someone for 30-40 dmg a hit 6 times a round?

I mean monk dips and monk as a class has been a problem for so long that hasn't been addressed and has in fact been secretly backhandedly buffed by item nerfs (more AB on gloves for example).

Monks do need looking at, something has to give. They can't be good at everything as they are currently.

Jordenk wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:23 pm Ahh yes, the next mechanical boogeyman that must be purged for server “health” has been chosen! Let us move swiftly and without mercy lest high AC builds and epic dodge ruin the integrity of our role play!

Thank you for sharing Gron. It makes me feel better to know some in leadership find the lvl 30 pvp benchmark for balance a tedious and cold way to frame mechanical discussions on the server. I have been feeling this way for a long time. All this math representing pvp in a hypothetical vacuum by the top 5% of builds is driving sweeping changes. It’s like the server’s cultural obsession to theorycraft niche pvp scenarios, that many never even encounter, in the interest of advocating for mechanical changes.

I’ll be playing a cleric or a str build until I feel it’s safe to build something else that might not provoke the metaphorical nerf mob.

I just pulled my buddy into PGCC to have a look at the stats on his svirf monk/fighter.

65-68 AC (out of expertise, depending on buffs available), 48AB (46 in FoB), 30-40 damage per hit, 8 attacks per round (UBAB). 30-40 ref, fort, will. Mind immunity. E-dodge. Blinding speed. Wholeness of Body. Empty Body (cannot be purged), 32 SR (Cannot be breached). Immunity to disease and poison (negligible), never lose movement speed, IKD, Deflect Arrows.

As I understand it, pure monks are even better than this.

Aren wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:02 pm

Jordenk wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:23 pm Ahh yes, the next mechanical boogeyman that must be purged for server “health” has been chosen! Let us move swiftly and without mercy lest high AC builds and epic dodge ruin the integrity of our role play!

Thank you for sharing Gron. It makes me feel better to know some in leadership find the lvl 30 pvp benchmark for balance a tedious and cold way to frame mechanical discussions on the server. I have been feeling this way for a long time. All this math representing pvp in a hypothetical vacuum by the top 5% of builds is driving sweeping changes. It’s like the server’s cultural obsession to theorycraft niche pvp scenarios, that many never even encounter, in the interest of advocating for mechanical changes.

I’ll be playing a cleric or a str build until I feel it’s safe to build something else that might not provoke the metaphorical nerf mob.

I just pulled my buddy into PGCC to have a look at the stats on his svirf monk/fighter.

65-68 AC (out of expertise, depending on buffs available), 48AB (46 in FoB), 30-40 damage per hit, 8 attacks per round (UBAB). 30-40 ref, fort, will. Mind immunity. E-dodge. Blinding speed. Wholeness of Body. Empty Body (cannot be purged), 32 SR (Cannot be breached). Immunity to disease and poison (negligible), never lose movement speed, IKD, Deflect Arrows.

As I understand it, pure monks are even better than this.

That sounds terrifying, I don't like it. I don't have one in my char vault either. That said, I don't really care. Never seen one, never been murdered by one. Probably won't ever. Do I want to get murder stomped by a a murder machine that's immune to magic and moves like the Flash, no? That said it's not an existential threat to my quality of life here. Nerfing it would nerf countless other builds that AREN'T min-maxed to the nine hells and I don't care that there are PC's out there that can stomp me, it's really quite ok.

The fact that this is where the conversation goes is my point. It's in PGCC... ok? Until there's a pack roaming around on the server terrorizing everyone and ruining the game, who cares? In that case, DM action please. Thank you. Where is this ACTUALLY a problem. How are they disrupting the server or rp? They're not. Maybe one or two are jerks and pvp hounds. Deal with them individually. These anecdotes about these uber powerful min-maxed power builds are just that... representations of a small percentage of players and characters, that in many cases aren't even using these powerful builds in a fundamentally disruptive way.

Jordenk wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:05 pm

Aren wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:02 pm

Jordenk wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:23 pm Ahh yes, the next mechanical boogeyman that must be purged for server “health” has been chosen! Let us move swiftly and without mercy lest high AC builds and epic dodge ruin the integrity of our role play!

Thank you for sharing Gron. It makes me feel better to know some in leadership find the lvl 30 pvp benchmark for balance a tedious and cold way to frame mechanical discussions on the server. I have been feeling this way for a long time. All this math representing pvp in a hypothetical vacuum by the top 5% of builds is driving sweeping changes. It’s like the server’s cultural obsession to theorycraft niche pvp scenarios, that many never even encounter, in the interest of advocating for mechanical changes.

I’ll be playing a cleric or a str build until I feel it’s safe to build something else that might not provoke the metaphorical nerf mob.

I just pulled my buddy into PGCC to have a look at the stats on his svirf monk/fighter.

65-68 AC (out of expertise, depending on buffs available), 48AB (46 in FoB), 30-40 damage per hit, 8 attacks per round (UBAB). 30-40 ref, fort, will. Mind immunity. E-dodge. Blinding speed. Wholeness of Body. Empty Body (cannot be purged), 32 SR (Cannot be breached). Immunity to disease and poison (negligible), never lose movement speed, IKD, Deflect Arrows.

As I understand it, pure monks are even better than this.

That sounds terrifying, I don't like it. I don't have one in my char vault either. That said, I don't really care. Never seen one, never been murdered by one. Probably won't ever. Do I want to get murder stomped by a a murder machine that's immune to magic and moves like the Flash, no? That said it's not an existential threat to my quality of life here. Nerfing it would nerf countless other builds that AREN'T min-maxed to the nine hells and I don't care that there are PC's out there that can stomp me, it's really quite ok.

The fact that this is where the conversation goes is my point. It's in PGCC... ok? Until there's a pack roaming around on the server terrorizing everyone and ruining the game, who cares? In that case, DM action please. Thank you. Where is this ACTUALLY a problem. How are they disrupting the server or rp? They're not. Maybe one or two are jerks and pvp hounds. Deal with them individually. These anecdotes about these uber powerful min-maxed power builds are just that... representations of a small percentage of players and characters, that in many cases aren't even using these powerful builds in a fundamentally disruptive way.

I had him transfer his live character to PGCC. (And he is far from the only monk on the server).
This character has been around for less than a few months. It is not hard to achieve those numbers. He isn't even fully 5% geared, as I am to understand it. Not even close, in fact.

There is a non-zero number of EDodge monks I've personally seen use their near indestructible nature to coerce, threaten, attack, and push their power to force concessions or death on those that oppose their pursuits. Off the top of my head, I can think of three I've witnessed that did exactly this, two of which have had multiple instances of enforcing the theme by beating up detractors in fights where they were often outnumbered by at least 4 to 1.

The occasional person using PvP power to throw weight around is fine, it creates stakes and sometimes intrigue. When tied to story, fighting can enhance the drama of the tale. The issue with EDodge monks and Divdips is they have almost 0 counter. When they choose to throw their weight around, opposing people, nay, opposing groups have few recourses to do much about it.

The issue with EDodge isn't simply a complaint that so-and-so has bigger numbers than someone else, it's a matter of making numbers irrelevant when combined with WXYZ layers and layers of immunities to any other form of counterplay.

Sure, if all a character does is sit in a settlement, craft, socialize, and avoid conflict: Then these builds are not likely to be a problem for you. Thing is, other people are engaged in conflict RP (in some locales, it is hard to entirely avoid, such as Andunor), or run into raiders on the roads, and when THAT happens, it is important avoid having a handful of people set up as unkillable whirlwinds of bludgeoning attacks.

Bunnysmack wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:15 pm There is a non-zero number of EDodge monks I've personally seen use their near indestructible nature to coerce, threaten, attack, and push their power to force concessions or death on those that oppose their pursuits. Off the top of my head, I can think of three I've witnessed that did exactly this, two of which have had multiple instances of enforcing the theme by beating up detractors in fights where they were often outnumbered by at least 4 to 1.

The occasional person using PvP power to throw weight around is fine, it creates stakes and sometimes intrigue. When tied to story, fighting can enhance the drama of the tale. The issue with EDodge monks and Divdips is they have almost 0 counter. When they choose to throw their weight around, opposing people, nay, opposing groups have few recourses to do much about it.

The issue with EDodge isn't simply a complaint that so-and-so has bigger numbers than someone else, it's a matter of making numbers irrelevant when combined with WXYZ layers and layers of immunities to any other form of counterplay.

It sounds like there are two problems here. First and foremost, player mentality. It sounds like something that needs to be reported frankly. The second is the obviously over tuned nature of Monk. While your experience is likely not unique in seeing this behavior, I do not think it is an existential threat. Of all the conflict rp & pvp I've been involved in (which I think is substantial), I have not seen any of it "dictated" by class or build, but more so by numbers and player etiquette.

There will always be "a meta," power builders and those that have a mechanical, skill, numbers or resource advantage. My problem is everyone looking at screws and whacking them with a hammer. You cannot fix non-narrative, PVP driven jerks trying to pvp all the time with powerbuilds by using mechanical balance (disclaimer not saying ppl who min-max or power build are bad ppl at all). There will always be lowbies, casual players and people who are just "better" at winning PvP for any number of reasons. And per your comment, this char was spun up in a couple of months, so when the meta shifts it'll just be a new round of meta-current power builds.

I will try to state as clearly as possible the real problem I have with this balance for top tier pvp mentality below, then I'm goin to step away away from the convo cuz I can't really contribute anything more without repeating myself.

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In order to balance against that top 5% of power-built, oppressively optimized pvp machines, you need to make mechanical changes that will have WIDE REACHING impacts on OTHER builds played by CASUAL players that are not optimized in this way, and this will ruin the basic viability and/or fun of many other players. The goal you have of removing this power gap is fundamentally impossible. Better to enforce the rules (including be nice) than trying to level everyone out, because this is a player problem first and foremost. If we cannot agree on these premises, it's just an agree to disagree moment. In either case thanks for the discussion.
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TBH it's the APR part that irks me about the Monk class as a mere dip can push a whole variety of builds into overdrive. The most obvious here would be spellswords and rangers.


Still, AC > 60 + Epic Dodge is a bit too much. PvP balance put aside, these characters can pretty much just walk around the endgame PvE content, looting shrines left and right without ever touching a spawn. Throw improved evasion into the mix and they can even laugh at the meteor spam.

Jordenk wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:34 pm I will try to state as clearly as possible the real problem I have with this balance for top tier pvp mentality below, then I'm goin to step away away from the convo cuz I can't really contribute anything more without repeating myself.
__
In order to balance against that top 5% of power-built, oppressively optimized pvp machines, you need to make mechanical changes that will have WIDE REACHING impacts on OTHER builds played by CASUAL players that are not optimized in this way, and this will ruin the basic viability and/or fun of many other players. The goal you have of removing this power gap is fundamentally impossible. Better to enforce the rules (including be nice) than trying to level everyone out, because this is a player problem first and foremost. If we cannot agree on these premises, it's just an agree to disagree moment. In either case thanks for the discussion.
__

You make some good points, and I think I unintentionally used more heated wording on the matter than I meant to. I agree that perfect balance in a complex game is impossible, much like perfectly balancing competing concerns in real life. If perfect balance WAS achieved, it would result in an entirely bland gameplay experience with little in the way of customization.

Considering the discussion was in regards to EDodge itself, I was putting forth my opinions on the debate, as I do believe that it is an epic feat that should be purely the providence of Rogues/SDs, but if nothing changes and EDodge remains as is, I'll still enjoy Arelith just fine. PvP obsession definitely needs to be tempered, and I think you make a good point in regards to mindset about these debates. I disagree with regards to EDodge, but I can respect your point of view and see its merits.

Still, AC > 60 + Epic Dodge is a bit too much. PvP balance put aside, these characters can pretty much just walk around the endgame PvE content, looting shrines left and right without ever touching a spawn. Throw improved evasion into the mix and they can even laugh at the meteor spam.

This is also true. I've talked to people that ID'd a specific monk or two managed to positively crash the market value on runic materials for a while cause they could just speed-run epic dungeons with 0 difficulty over and over again.

Bunnysmack wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:53 pm

Jordenk wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:34 pm I will try to state as clearly as possible the real problem I have with this balance for top tier pvp mentality below, then I'm goin to step away away from the convo cuz I can't really contribute anything more without repeating myself.
__
In order to balance against that top 5% of power-built, oppressively optimized pvp machines, you need to make mechanical changes that will have WIDE REACHING impacts on OTHER builds played by CASUAL players that are not optimized in this way, and this will ruin the basic viability and/or fun of many other players. The goal you have of removing this power gap is fundamentally impossible. Better to enforce the rules (including be nice) than trying to level everyone out, because this is a player problem first and foremost. If we cannot agree on these premises, it's just an agree to disagree moment. In either case thanks for the discussion.
__

You make some good points, and I think I unintentionally used more heated wording on the matter than I meant to. I agree that perfect balance in a complex game is impossible, much like perfectly balancing competing concerns in real life. If perfect balance WAS achieved, it would result in an entirely bland gameplay experience with little in the way of customization.

Considering the discussion was in regards to EDodge itself, I was putting forth my opinions on the debate, as I do believe that it is an epic feat that should be purely the providence of Rogues/SDs, but if nothing changes and EDodge remains as is, I'll still enjoy Arelith just fine. PvP obsession definitely needs to be tempered, and I think you make a good point in regards to mindset about these debates. I disagree with regards to EDodge, but I can respect your point of view and see its merits.

Still, AC > 60 + Epic Dodge is a bit too much. PvP balance put aside, these characters can pretty much just walk around the endgame PvE content, looting shrines left and right without ever touching a spawn. Throw improved evasion into the mix and they can even laugh at the meteor spam.

This is also true. I've talked to people that ID'd a specific monk or two managed to positively crash the market value on runic materials for a while cause they could just speed-run epic dungeons with 0 difficulty over and over again.

Thanks for your response. And fwiw I was a little shocked when I saw monks were able to take epic dodge. I think your idea of having it be in the domain of the rogue class could a great way to limit the triple stacking of goodies without nerfing a feat that many others rely on and achieve powerful builds, but not goofy powerful ones.

This thread is derailed.

Respectfully, this thread has also turned into a monk balance rant which careens precipitously between factually inaccurate (c.f. never lose movement speed) and unhelpfully alarmist (c.f. unbreachable 32 sr!!!). I pray that none of this translates into actual mechanical changes, since this almost unbalanceable class is in one of the best balance positions ever. (Pure is doable, fisted is doable, weapons offer real choices, dips are neither ruined nor required, SD or Rogue isn't required, monk can class alongside other top tier options, etc., etc., etc.)

RedGiant wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:04 am This thread is derailed.

Not to worry, let's create a separate thread to discuss monk imbalances.

Jordenk wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:34 pm __
In order to balance against that top 5% of power-built, oppressively optimized pvp machines, you need to make mechanical changes that will have WIDE REACHING impacts on OTHER builds played by CASUAL players that are not optimized in this way, and this will ruin the basic viability and/or fun of many other players. The goal you have of removing this power gap is fundamentally impossible. Better to enforce the rules (including be nice) than trying to level everyone out, because this is a player problem first and foremost. If we cannot agree on these premises, it's just an agree to disagree moment. In either case thanks for the discussion.
__

There was much more that could be quoted as it was spot on in my view and worth exploring, but as a casual player, I wanted to pipe up on this last piece. I know some are focused on min/maxing and "winning" Arelith, but if that really is the goal I would suggest these players will never be happy. Once the formula is figured out, the game becomes boring and it's time to move on, but catering to this type of play leaves behind a path of whiplash for the population at large as everyone is caught up in it.

For example, hypothetically if we were to alter monks yet again, this would be the third time I would have a full relevel for my high level alt monk/shadowdancer in under 2 years. It's a bit tiresome and I'm glad I haven't invested any more time in him recently.

Maybe Arelith isn't meant for players like me who aren't willing to make a large investment of time and study to play, I'm still trying to figure that out. And maybe that's ok too, losing a few casuals here and there makes zero difference to the overall population.

However, again as a casual, I could care less there are builds walking about that could smack me down in seconds. I've been ganked a few times and after looking at the logs I saw I had exactly zero chance of winning the fight alone. It wasn't even close. But that's not why I play here, to be number one. I can get that elsewhere.

People have been trying with varying success to balance 3e for nearly 20 years. In contrast, old school D&D could be horribly unbalanced but the focus was more on the individual skill on each player to solve problems in unique ways regardless of class (there were no "builds"), all for the benefit of the party and the game. I tend to prefer that style of play and that's how I approach Arelith.

Anyway - yes, all tangentially related but I'm not interested in starting a separate thread on the matter. Again, still not sure what type of player Arelith is trying to attract and retain, but I would think the player base is better served if the larger and mostly silent majority (inferred since we only see the same few voices participate on these threads) is not overlooked when making mechanical changes.

For what it’s worth, this thread reads a lot more like...

“Hey guys, this is the trick to beating e-dodge” than it does “let’s fix thing breaking e-dodge, here’s a ludicrous suggestion to wildly increase the power of an already incredible feat”.

I think we were trolled.

One who plays a Role-Playing server and seeks any thing other then good events and RP within the community's, is trolling One-self.


Let go and move on. be free of stress and enjoy a good play at your local event's or a ale in the local Inn.

god's bless us all.

Ninjimmy wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:51 pm

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:24 am
Much better suggestion than to give e-dodgers immunity to niche combat feats most characters dont have

I generally agree with everything else here but I thought knockdown was almost certainly a lock in for most Strength Builds? It wouldn't even need to be improved, just the standard, one regular feat investment to counter an epic feat with multiple pre-reqs.

... I agree with literally everything else, I just think the sort of characters who E.Dodge is effective against are also probably the same pool who will have knockdown.

Not gonna die on that hill. I think *most* meta builds cant really afford it but maybe I'm basing my thought process without some silent meta shifts I havent noticed yet. My point was mostly that E-dodge should be nerfed or removed, not buffed.

AstralUniverse wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:08 pm

Ninjimmy wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:51 pm

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:24 am
Much better suggestion than to give e-dodgers immunity to niche combat feats most characters dont have

I generally agree with everything else here but I thought knockdown was almost certainly a lock in for most Strength Builds? It wouldn't even need to be improved, just the standard, one regular feat investment to counter an epic feat with multiple pre-reqs.

... I agree with literally everything else, I just think the sort of characters who E.Dodge is effective against are also probably the same pool who will have knockdown.

Not gonna die on that hill. I think *most* meta builds cant really afford it but maybe I'm basing my thought process without some silent meta shifts I havent noticed yet. My point was mostly that E-dodge should be nerfed or removed, not buffed.

That's fair enough, I'm not willing to commit to my stance of it being widespread either, I just know whenever I've run strength build I've been recommended or taken knockdown, but it's not like evidence.

And agree, E-dodge does not need a buff.

a shrouded figure wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:56 pm For what it’s worth, this thread reads a lot more like...

“Hey guys, this is the trick to beating e-dodge” than it does “let’s fix thing breaking e-dodge, here’s a ludicrous suggestion to wildly increase the power of an already incredible feat”.

I think we were trolled.

I wasn't trolling but I must come clean and admit I was motivated mainly by wanting to demonstrate that these changes are made not to fix exploits but primarily to balance PvP. Contrast the sentiment in this thread with the thread on the HiPs nerf. The engine limitation inherent in HiPs is derided as an "exploit" that requires fixing by entire disablement of the feat.

Knockdown and called shot effectively bypassing e-dodge is clearly a problem with the engine and the way the interaction is coded. Using those feats in knowledge of the engine limitation against an e-dodger in PVP as a means of "burning" the e-dodge is no less an exploit in my opinion than the much rarer low stealth HiPser who used HipS soley to flatfoot when they had no ability to make the hide check. Now the balance discussion around e-dodge (which this thread has of course become) should really be a separate issue to fixing bugs and exploits, but understandably the two are intrinsically linked.

Not sure how burdensome this would be on server resources, or even if it's possible, but what if e-dodge gave some substantial percentage of physical damage immunity once per round, or perhaps with a few rounds of cooldown? A hit still hits, but the edodger effectively avoids the worst of a blow.

It's the only way I can beat a dex build tbh it's either that or remove e dodge all together cause I'm a strngth build and high ac is already something I'm struggling to hit

For my own two cents, I would like to see Edodge restricted to rogues and SD, or at least removed from monks.

I have recently played a caster cleric and rage barbarian and neither can counter a monk build. The only defense is to cast a shield (acid sheath, death armor, elemental shield) and hope the attacker runs away or kills themselves upon you.

Out of pure curiosity, a created a glass cannon Arcane Archer with an AB of 59 to face an imported monk build on the test server. The results were disappointing. Even with a high AB the monks high AC (low 70's), invisibility, and edodge made hitting them near impossible expect on the first attack of each round, which the Edodge countered.

While I do not what to see monks go completely, I would like to see them lowered from the top of the food chain. One way to help this is to restrict thier use of Edodge.

I just hate when people use the monk strategy of fishing for 1's on a high APR and epid dodge. Oh and buying time for wholeness of body. That's just plainly not fun.

+1 for E Dodge removal, let the cavs reign supreme

This is a crazy idea that just popped in my head so it's not well thought out but...

True strike Feat for strength based characters. Instant action, once per 10 minutes or whatever. I'm honestly not even sure that would break the strangle hold dex has on the meta, but at least it would allow for some what of a counter without the potion drinking animation that tells your opponent they need to run for 9 seconds.

Way off the original topic I know, but I had nothing to say on that that wasn't already said.