Arelith

D&D attributes are extremely silly if you think about them for more than a second. A character with 18 STR is supposed to be the peak of mortal physique compared to an average 10 STR bloke. And how does this translate into the game? A meagre +4 difference to a d20 dice roll. A tiny 20% increase in the chance to complete any strength related task.

It gets even sillier when you put in skills into the equation. A scrawny halfling with 6 STR and 20 points in Jump can easily leap three to four times the distance of a muscled adonis with 26 points in STR and no points in jump.

So in short, don't think too hard about how people roleplay their attributes. You do you and let them do themselves.

No one complaining about all the high CHA characters that are absolutely repugnantly uncharismatic.

Hazard wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 9:04 am No one complaining about all the high CHA characters that are absolutely repugnantly uncharismatic.

That’s actually an interesting point! Maybe you’ve seen a trend of exactly what you’re describing. I haven’t, but I’d be very curious to hear of it, actually!

Mind, there’s one catch to approaching this from the opposite side. If you have a talent or skill, you can choose not to employ it. If you don’t, you don’t get such a choice.

On a different note, I’ve seen some suggestions that we should more or less ignore the character sheets when RPing, as they’re just numbers on a page. The thing is, it’s a game built around those numbers and what they mean.

Flexibility is good, mind. Everyone has their moments of brilliance, and ones where they’re just off from their usual performance. Those numbers are supposed to represent who your character is. What exactly they mean can be open to a great deal of interpretation, as this thread has shown. Tossing that aside entirely, though, is declaring that you don’t have to play by the same rules that everyone else agreed on, and seems kind of disrespectful to everyone you’re playing with, to me.

Kriegos wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:07 am

Hazard wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 9:04 am No one complaining about all the high CHA characters that are absolutely repugnantly uncharismatic.

That’s actually an interesting point! Maybe you’ve seen a trend of exactly what you’re describing. I haven’t, but I’d be very curious to hear of it, actually!

Mind, there’s one catch to approaching this from the opposite side. If you have a talent or skill, you can choose not to employ it. If you don’t, you don’t get such a choice.

On a different note, I’ve seen some suggestions that we should more or less ignore the character sheets when RPing, as they’re just numbers on a page. The thing is, it’s a game built around those numbers and what they mean.

Flexibility is good, mind. Everyone has their moments of brilliance, and ones where they’re just off from their usual performance. Those numbers are supposed to represent who your character is. What exactly they mean can be open to a great deal of interpretation, as this thread has shown. Tossing that aside entirely, though, is declaring that you don’t have to play by the same rules that everyone else agreed on, and seems kind of disrespectful to everyone you’re playing with, to me.

Yeah I have to say, it rubs me the wrong way when people say that the stats on the character sheet don't matter.

Even the Wiki states that you're expected to roleplay what's on your sheet.

Roleplay Rule article wrote:You are expected to roleplay your character sheet to the best of your abilities. If your character becomes more Intimidating over the course of time on the island, I'd expect to see some points dropped into Intimidate. We have skills for a reason (beyond how much AC you can add with Tumble).

Honestly I headcanon a lot that Charisma should instead be a stat called Presence.

Presence would make a lot more sense with stuff such as manifesting powers from your bloodline (Sorcerors), Paladin influence and so forth, while accomodating things which are considerent uncharismatic (such as intimidation and the like). Charisma sort of feels more suave to me than it is for the things it represents.

You can be absolutely attractive and still very shy and awkward; many incredible orators and demagogues were barely considered attractive, yet had an incredible stage presence and were good at making people feel things.

What matters is that you're RPing your character having that flaw (or boon), in some sense. No one likes a perfect character.

I think what people might be trying to convey by saying that one does not need to RP their stats isn't a flippant dismissal of the system but more likely that people would prefer to interpret their own stats while you can interpret yours.

Besides - unless you're physically asking out of character what someone's CHA is then you don't know it. If you examine them, and it says low, you don't know if it's a character with insane bluff manipulating the feedback to appear meek.

All else is metagaming I'd think.

Edit:

Another thought might be about including soft buffs to take the notion of CHA=physical to its extreme conclusion.

Theoretically any character besides -4 CHA races can get to 20 CHA which is God-tier hotness (whatever that may be). Does this mean that drinking a potion of eagle's splendor instantly changes a character's entire appearance?

What about crafting a set of CHA gear on top? Can someone, theoretically in RP, change their face from 'not to hawt' by changing clothes and putting on some rings?

At what point does it all fall apart and just not really matter?

I think the bottomline is: Don't be a mary sue.
If a character has obvious strengths they should have glaring weaknesses. Not because of realism, really. But because the flaws make an interesting character.

The ability system helps to facilitate that, and it is a core part of the setting we play so it shouldn't be ignored. Charismatic people are better at being sorcerers and bards, smart people wizards and rogues etc, etc. But there's all kinds of dancing around you can do with the ability system especially with charisma.

Skibbles' drow is a great example. A pretty princess in all the prettiest bling illicitly gained money can buy but it didn't take my snotty princess long to realize she hates her guts, but begrudgingly respects her skill as a wizard.

Personally I don't mind if a hot general chugs down a charisma potion and gives a good speech or whatever. You may not have seen him/her chug down that potion and vomit from anxiety behind the stage, you can't tell. I have more lols about overly graphic description of 'attractive' qualities than the dyssynergy between charisma score and looks.

It should also be said that, very often, characters with well played low charisma, however it is portrayed, tend to draw a lot of other people to them because of it.

I say this from experience, both from playing low charisma characters, and being drawn to others' characters that were awesome because of it.

I am more dexterous than the literal emodiment of shadows.
I am stronger than the most strong being in the forgotten realms.
I am wiser than chosen avatars.
I am more smarterest than a elder brain.
I am more charismatic than embodiments of beauty and charisma.
I rival in stats some gods, if not outshining some minor ones.

Asmodeus wouldn't be able to reach the heights of our adventurers.

If you were to only roleplay according to your stats this would leave to a very narrow, very boring box of PCs or have players not enjoy their mechanical build because they wanted to play a charming swashbuckler instead of a awkward and/or hideous pirate.

Orogs.
These guys get +2 charisma.
Pure force of presence.

Skibbles wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:53 am Theoretically any character besides -4 CHA races can get to 20 CHA which is God-tier hotness (whatever that may be). Does this mean that drinking a potion of eagle's splendor instantly changes a character's entire appearance?

What about crafting a set of CHA gear on top? Can someone, theoretically in RP, change their face from 'not to hawt' by changing clothes and putting on some rings?

At what point does it all fall apart and just not really matter?

One, I think what some of us are saying is it's really not about physical "hotness". Charisma is something else like force of will, magnetism and so on. I'd just let players describe how they want and if that means there's physically attractive 8 charisma characters out there so be it. It's a fantasy world, maybe everyone is abnormally good looking, that certainly seems to be the case in fantasy books and comics and movies so why not here too. Even more so if you get into anime and Final Fantasy and the like in which everyone, even the ugly are designed to be incredibly beautiful and a lot of players seem to draw on this for inspiration so +shrugs+. I think it can be a bit weird how some go overboard with loving descriptions but que sera sera. I find plain or ugly more interesting myself and would always gravitate towards others who go that route so I'm not saying this to be defending my right to play an 8 cha goddess I just think it's best for all to leave physical attractiveness out of the charisma equation because it's a battle that won't be won.

Two, sure. It's the trope about the mousy librarian letting down her hair and suddenly she's the most beautiful woman in the room. Or Clark Kent taking off his glasses and becoming Superman,.

Discuss lithe and Drowess next, yes?

Kenji wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:00 am Discuss lithe and Drowess next, yes?

this makes me HIT THE DESK

We need ugly phenotypes

msheeler wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:32 am We need ugly phenotypes

But gnomes already exist?

Kenji wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:00 am Discuss lithe and Drowess next, yes?

i'm going to commit a war crime

MissEvelyn wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:14 amYeah I have to say, it rubs me the wrong way when people say that the stats on the character sheet don't matter.

Even the Wiki states that you're expected to roleplay what's on your sheet.

Roleplay Rule article wrote:You are expected to roleplay your character sheet to the best of your abilities. If your character becomes more Intimidating over the course of time on the island, I'd expect to see some points dropped into Intimidate. We have skills for a reason (beyond how much AC you can add with Tumble).

this was probably written by jjjerm 15 years ago and copypasted across the various forums and wikis as they have inevitably exploded over the years

that paragraph, as written, is laughably obsolete in 2021

I'd argue that the vast majority of things written by jjjerm should probably be revisited and, arguably, discarded. It wasn't exactly the best period of Arelith's history, nor should it be taken as the gospel truth or gold standard of what the server should be - both as a game and a community.

Many of them have been already.

I've played three low CHA characters (granted, one of them I've played a lot more than the others), all of whom were somewhere between "average" and "cute" for their race. I enjoy the challenge of playing low CHA without relying on physical appearance alone (or bog-standard rudeness) to convey it. Here's how I've dealt with it:

Character 1 (ranger): Almost entirely unable to argue, let alone win an argument. Would panic, go into Stealth, and try to run away (regardless of whether that was remotely feasible or not) rather than answer difficult questions. When unable to run, would be unable to speak and only able to respond by nodding or shaking her head or gesturing.

Character 2 (slave wizard): Painful levels of wallflower, zero sense of self-worth. Acts as if she was never taught how to have a proper conversation beyond "Yes Master" and "No Mistress."

Character 3 (noble wizard): Zero poise or filter, almost childishly so. Frequently puts her foot in her mouth (though, because she's got high INT, she realizes exactly what she's done as soon as it leaves her mouth and will cringe at herself).

The thing for me with playing low CHA characters is that, if a character has low CHA, they probably have decent INT or WIS, which means your character probably knows they aren't charismatic and is not going to try to play to a strength they don't have. Taking Character 1 as an example, I was able to justify in RP her skill and feat choices around the driving character motivation of "avoid having to make RPed CHA checks". Arguably, we all already do this when we create our character and pick a class/build that fits our ability scores, so I don't think this is bad RP.

All I really care about is that they roleplay good.

It's fine to play a physically attractive character with low charisma. We really don't hound people for not playing exactly what's on their sheet. However, I have found it strange that charisma is the only attribute that people argue over about like this.

Wouldn't the so-called physical stats (str, dex, con) do more to determine what you look like than your force of personality?

Drowboy wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:12 pm Wouldn't the so-called physical stats (str, dex, con) do more to determine what you look like than your force of personality?

Yes.

Amateur Hour wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:28 pm I've played three low CHA characters (granted, one of them I've played a lot more than the others), all of whom were somewhere between "average" and "cute" for their race. I enjoy the challenge of playing low CHA without relying on physical appearance alone (or bog-standard rudeness) to convey it. Here's how I've dealt with it:

Character 1 (ranger): Almost entirely unable to argue, let alone win an argument. Would panic, go into Stealth, and try to run away (regardless of whether that was remotely feasible or not) rather than answer difficult questions. When unable to run, would be unable to speak and only able to respond by nodding or shaking her head or gesturing.

Character 2 (slave wizard): Painful levels of wallflower, zero sense of self-worth. Acts as if she was never taught how to have a proper conversation beyond "Yes Master" and "No Mistress."

Character 3 (noble wizard): Zero poise or filter, almost childishly so. Frequently puts her foot in her mouth (though, because she's got high INT, she realizes exactly what she's done as soon as it leaves her mouth and will cringe at herself).

The thing for me with playing low CHA characters is that, if a character has low CHA, they probably have decent INT or WIS, which means your character probably knows they aren't charismatic and is not going to try to play to a strength they don't have. Taking Character 1 as an example, I was able to justify in RP her skill and feat choices around the driving character motivation of "avoid having to make RPed CHA checks". Arguably, we all already do this when we create our character and pick a class/build that fits our ability scores, so I don't think this is bad RP.

So - I'm going to go on a bit of a feminist tangent/rant here. But before I do I need to make some disclaimers
1) You play what the heck you wanna play.
2) This is in no way a personal attack. I think the above is actually pretty prevelent in how people play low charisma women and it does bother me sometimes.
3) If we look at what charisma is - over all - then I think the best example is ones ability to interact with the environment about you socially. Good looks help with this. Social skills help with this. Force of personality can also help with this. But the other big thing that helps with this is general 'social approval.' The ability to be liked, on some level, even if one is an inglorious B*****d. This latter point is pretty much outside a players controle - or at least very difficult to controle and I want to say I accept that from the get go.

That all being said.

Let's look at some phrases that may be seen as an insult to a woman
'She was ugly.'
'She was meek.'
'She was outspoken'
'She was child like'

Of those phrases, it's odd to see 'meek' or 'child like' used (at least in faction) as a derogitory term. In fact in a lot of media, those things are seen as good things. Wheres as uglyness is a cardinal sin for a women (there's few worse things you can call women than 'ugly' because so much of our self worth in society depends on it. If you doubt me just take a look at the amount of beauty products for women out there.)
Outspoken is also generally seen as a net negative. 'A mouthy B**tch' is a common enough insult. The idea that women who get angry, offer opinions, are not demure or mild in their tone - I'm sure you've witnessed it a fair bit. Don't get me wrong - this is a situation that's changing, both in terms of media and also in our own individual understanding. Things are definatly improving.

But I wanted to call attention to this because the examples above are, in a way, hyper-charismatic women. They arn't low charisma because they conform to very much society's sterotypical idea- if only subconciously (and this stuff is hard to shake) to what women should be.

Pretty.
Meek.
Childlike.
Existing for a big strong man to pick them up, protect them, make decisions for them, show them the world whils they lean on the man's shoulder like wide eyed arm ornaments, brimming with gratitude that the Big Strong Man gives their life love and purpose.

And you do still get some great characters out of this - after a fashion. But if every persons idea of the only way to play 'low charisma' woman is a pretty arm ornament it gets a little irritating. Especialy as a RL woman who - lets be honest - ddn't exactly win the game of good looks.

Again - it's your character. You play what the heck you want. But I would implore you to consider playing low charisma women as... something other than the above, as a woman it can get a little tiresome.

I would like to point out with the current need for maximized builds limits ones ability to play to their stats. Yes, you don't have to have a meta build, but if you have any desire for conflict RP and the mere chance at survival it is highly recommend.

So in short I am of the mind to worry less about the numbers and more about the RP. We are, after all, here to have fun and spin tales. I don't see why being completely true to the Stats is required.

I often find myself in life and on these forums trying and failing to make a more nuanced argument than can be heard. People want an answer that is as simple as ‘yes, is good’ or not, is bad’. I can’t provide that for Arelith very often. What I can say is,

Roleplay your stats both strong and weak.

and

Don’t police other players stats or their roleplay.

And I agree with Grumpycat above.

The REAL issue is all those Druids and Clerics with no wisdom!