Arelith

Just want to point out once again we have somewhere around 134 players per dm, so weeding out the “bad eggs” isn’t a solution unless it’s a vast minority of the cases.

I am regurgitating some thoughts a friend of mine had.

The primary issue with slaves as they are are as follows.

The RP is insular: Only the slave and the owner can interact with the mechanical system in place. It requires 2mil to be bought out with the owner, and if the slave determines to free themselves, it requires a lengthy quest that they must complete themselves. Aside from raising money, which may or may not go toward the buy out price, there's no way for anyone to help a slave.

Slave Culture IC: Slaves are viewed with hostility in Arelith because if they aren't trying to get free, then they 'must' be complicit and spying for the Underdark. This means having a slave walking around your city is dangerous. They could be harvesting names for scrying, finding out where people live, our being bait to lure people away to also be enslaved. Because of the nature of how the system works, the only "right" decision is to push the slave away. Whether or not this is good RP is not something I'll comment on, but I will observe it makes it very difficult for anyone outside the slave dynamic to interact with it.

The System is Obtuse: As earlier mentioned, only two people can participate in the system. It's old, clunky, and honestly could use an update.

Why even get rid of it?: The benefits to being a slave are considerable. You get access to UD and surface portals, you get to hang out with bad guys and good guys and be a double agent for either side with very little consequence or repercussion.


I agree with Griefmaker and others that being a slave should absolutely suck. I do not agree with making it cost an award to get a collar off. At that point, you might as well treat that character like a UD character and never show them any IC clemency or assistance. That really takes away from the thematic elements of what slavery rp can bring to the table. You might as well be an Outcast at that point. It's hard to pity a slave when you know there's nothing you can do for them, but are forced to have to turn them away or be hostile because it's the only pragmatic choice.

Someone brought up that it would be really cool if being a slave meant you were automatically locked to the UD (let's be honest, Sibayadian slaves don't exist.) Pepper in some other inconviences, but primarily, if you are a slave, you can't leave the underdark. Change the chainbreaker quest to an underground rail-road situation, the quest is all about doing things so you can break the magical barrier and escape back to the surface. Once on the surface, you have to book it to a settlement's guard faction, where there they can help you take the collar off for a fee of resources or a craftable item, something.

I would make it so the escape attempt could *only* happen when your owner is online, so they can wrangle up a bunch of slave catchers to try and catch you. I would also look at making the mini-quest involve the owner in some way to faciliate owner-slave interaction. Maybe during your escape, your collar makes you immune to -yoinks and so you can't use any portals, so you have to hoof it.

I think this is just super cool. Slaves become a football, and people can try to help them get to safety or try and drag them back. A slave on the surface now becomes a rarity that invokes the things you should be feeling when you see an escaped slave: curiosity, a call to action. An escaped slave on the run is an excellent story hook for everyone involved. It also means that players who want to remain a slave don't have to do mental gymnastics to justify why they don't just stay in the nice safe surface city instead of going back to the bad place.

I would honestly do away with the slavery system and replace it with a "lower caste" system where impoverished and desperate branded outcasts and people with no other choice but to accept being branded to be allowed to try to scrap a living in Andunor and require patronage from the ruling races.

There's a lot of evil RP that can come from the rich taking advantage of the poor without having to have them wear a "Collar". Honestly? Let's just admit the collar thing is now more associated with non-pg13 kinks than anything else and that it will always draw the wrong crowd.

I would prefer if the Prisoner system remained, and the slave system went away.

Skibbles wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:22 am I've had one of my most favorite character arcs be in becoming enslaved, dealing with the horrors of the UD, clawing their way to freedom, and then ruling the Devil's Table afterward as one of the most unforgettable experiences for myself and even some others that still reminisce about this story years later.

I remember that character vividly, having interacted with her on two characters, one an outcast, the other a founding member of House Xun'viir.

And while I think she was very creatively written, I also think there were aspects of that character's roleplay and the roleplay of the faction she created, including my own roleplay, that would toe the line under Arelith's current "PG-13" rules. Lots of torture, cutting, self-harm and mutilation, light-BDSM stuff, and other things that, eh, might get a sidelong glance from the DMs in 2022. I remember that the faction attracted one member who got banned for highly inappropriate roleplay that featured non-consensual sexual acts. Obviously the other members of the faction didn't condone that, but I also wonder if aspects of their roleplay made the player feel more welcome to engage in it than they would have otherwise.

I'm not decided on whether slave RP should be prohibited. I'm still very much on the fence. And part of that is because of the fact that Arelith seems to be gradually shifting from a PG-13 towards a PG rating, and I'm not sure how I feel about that either. But given the current norms for what counts as appropriate content on the server, I can easily see someone who feels differently using that character and faction as one more argument against keeping slavery on the server.

AstralUniverse wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 6:46 am

Wings of Peace wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:06 pm

AstralUniverse wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:02 pm moving this here from the other thread.

Ugh.. read that again.. but slowly...

I mean, should bad roleplayers be rewarded with mechanical cookies for being bad? The slavery system doesnt really enforce anything. It's an easy start, and quite easy to get freed out of, and even if you dont, it's still a constant source of RP (and income subsequently) and freedom of movement both in the underdark and the surface. If the system is there to prevent bad RP , it does the very opposite. So as I said, good writers dont need this system to make good slaves and bad writers dont deserve this system to have easier time.

Just going to point out that the 'Good Writers' argument reeks of No True Scottsman and is incredibly elitist considering you could apply it to basically anything facilitated by a mechanic.

You can call me an elitist all you want. That's fine and I accept it. But... Yes.. There is good RP and there is bad RP, and some mechanics contribute in a positive manner and some mechanics just fail in practice. This is an example to the latter, as history has been showing for years.

Amateur Hour wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:19 pm I am not referring to the slaves themselves in terms of roleplay. I am referring to everyone else who interacts with them. Roleplay is a two-way street. Without mechanical enforcement, other people can be jerks about someone choosing to roleplay as if they are owned by another character. "No you're not" can't really be argued against.

If the slave in question RPs that they are wearing a slave collar and are scared of their master then I dont see how it's different IC than actually wearing a mechanical collar. That's my entire point in this thread actually. The mechanical collar doesnt really serve any point besides allowing you to level in the underdark as a none-evil human and have portals both up and down, as well as constant influx of gear/gold/acquaintances, regardless of your RP. That's the issue I'm observing. The system does not reward RP at all.

You would think in that case that you could give a better response to my post than "It's this way because I said so." But I'm glad we agree I guess that it's not a real dismissal.

My personal issue is it's just bad taste to have something called slavery that in lore is supposed to horrific (a human enslaved by a drow ought to be the +worst fate imaginable+) but instead most slaves seem to be having an awesome time. It's such a rare thing that anyone RPs the misery a slave ought to go through- and I don't mean being afraid of a drow matron yelling at them or doling out a few lashes, everyone's afraid of that- I mean living in sheer terror day to day and not trusting anyone and most important +not+ being best buddies with their master and half the underdark. There's an ickiness to all the beautiful 18 year old human females enslaved and standing around the Hub like hip fashion models and seemingly not too afraid of anything that I don't think is appropriate at all. It's not what slavery in the underdark is supposed to be, it's a mockery of RL slavery that we're still reckoning with in society and it has an S&M-themed undertone that collides with the PG-13 guidelines. If players want to go there, fine, but mechanics are changed all the time to direct RP in certain directions and I think this is an area that needs to be examined-- how slaves and masters are really being played and if it's really in the spirit of what the (quite ancient) system intended.

I know great slave RP could happen but I don't think it is happening with enough frequency that this mechanic has to stay completely intact. Bringing up one awesomely played slave from 4 years ago doesn't mean we need a dozen sexy Cordor farm girls lounging around who are slaves but somehow outrank everyone because they're tied to underdark celebrities. Why not a similar but alignment neutral vassal system instead? It could be used for slavery if you want but then it could also be used by the Radiant Heart for their squires and many other factions to bond one lower class or rank character to a higher. Slavery could still exist but at least it wouldn't be outright encouraged and endorsed by the Arelith staff.

VibeKings wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 5:45 pm

Skibbles wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:22 am[...]Lastly I just find it weird how triggering 'slavery' is despite that large swaths of FR lore, including on Arelith, strongly features multi-generational genocide, where PCs regularly engage in casual ultraviolet murder, occassional dismemberment, and alignments are so opposed that it's perfectly acceptable to RP as though people and/or creatures aren't even sentient beings and simply monsters to be erradicated.

Murder=Okay as long as you say something first.
Genocide=Huge part of the setting, but make sure you say something first.
Slavery=Too far.

If we want to be consistent we'd be better off just removing the Underdark, or the entire enchantment school of magic - with most of its spells based on robbing someone of their consenting faculties in some form or another.[...]

I don't think many people have a problem with slavery existing in the setting, rather the way the system itself exists currently or that it allows you to enslave PCs, as far as a "bad taste in the mouth." I really don't think anybody is calling for a sanitisation of the setting so as to fall in line with modern post-industrial sensibilities. Like you said, nobody is calling for fighting monsters to be removed because violence is bad (even though IRL it's not controversial to say that it is). I'm really not convinced people want slavery removed because slavery is bad (even though IRL, it is). They have reasons they don't like it that are server, narrative, mechanic specific.

It is, however, quite fair I think to criticise the way the system works, or the manner in which slavery is portrayed on the module. By the latter I mean certain proscriptions on player behavior, an easy example of which is the "no romance/relationship/sex between master+slave" rule.

Yeah I can agree with that. I was only responding to the parts of my post that were quoted.

I'd be down for seeing the slavery mechanics modernized, with the creativity we see from the Devs these days, and lifted to a steeper RPR requirement that would quickly weed out the weirdness.

I really don't think the whole thing needs to just be axed when there are other things that can be tried first to preserve a narrative tool. It just seems like something should be tried first instead of giving up being the first option.

One of the primary reasons why I RP on Arelith is the fact that it has the Underdark setting, a place to play monsters, and I do think the presence of Slavery and the Slavery system do contribute towards the atmosphere of Underdark, in where slavery is commonplace. In my opinion, it works excellently in announcing the place as "evil", where personal freedom isn't quaranteed and danger lurks behind every corner.

I have played 4 different slaves with vastly different concepts over the years, either because I had a story to tell or I wanted to help to enhance the setting by playing believeable characters in their given roles.

While this thread is primarily about gievances, I do wish to say that please do not punish those wanting to tell a good story over the scattered few bad examples you may have come across over the years. Any concept can be played well or poorly.

If the theme of Slavery makes you uncomfortable, you have plenty of space on the server to interact which has nothing to do with slaves. It is a part of the FR setting and while horrific examples exist in real world, this is fantasy. I think it is healthy to know how to separate the two. I think it is a worse crime to try to whitewash everything that makes us uncomfortable than deal with the feelings and come in terms with it, especially in a game of makebelieve. Things above PG-13 are obviously an entirely different story, but slavery on itself is not above that, only certain parts of it if we go into extremes - but those can happen even outside slavery so let's not get into that.

Now.... Into the mechanical grievances of the slavery systems:

1.) External parties have a hard time helping a slave escape. The quest requires many steps that only Slave-characters really know about, and most I suspect complete the quest by themselves in fear of being ratted out by other slaves for wanting to escape.

At the same time, you stand before a difficult question. If breaking slaves free was easy, then the good-doers would do nothing else than that. I would probably mandate that you need a "properly outfitted forge", one found in Major cities (Guld, Cord, Brog) to break the metal and the arcane enchantments, so you at least have to take the slave to a safe place in where the collar can be broken.

Having an easier way of breaking the shackle is not neccessarily a bad thing, as it mandates the slave-owners to invent their own RP-based leverage to keep someone enslaved, such as arcane rituals, the Fear of what would happen if escapes, a Contract with a Devil, or poisons that start acting if not regularly getting an antidote, making breaking each slave free a little different from another - a RP-related quest rather than a hard, mechanically enforced one.

You still need OOC permission to enslave someone, so there should be no endless loop of capture > liberation > re-capture - unless the player was cool with such a story. It might lead into some more interesting conflicts and intrique between Slavers and Slavebreakers too, a greater tug-of-war than it currently is.

2.) Current Slave-owners have a really hard time let their slaves "go free".
Owning Slaves is a status-symbol. It displays wealth and power. If you are going to "free" your slave, you do it because you have made a deal with the individual, or believe that they will be a greater asset without the collar.

I do not think the Stick is needed for the slaveowner. They have all the reason to keep people enslaved. Profit, prestiege and bragging rights.

3.) Was Slavery used for convenience, for speed-leveling rather than to tell a Story?
Related to 2, I am unsure why the cost was raised from 500k to 2 million. I 'think' it was because people were using Slave as a Quick Lane to level, and it used to be easier to buy yourself free than do the lengty Slave Freedom quest.

What if you were only given 1 or 2 Writ per day rather than 3 as a Slave? The Registry Agent could say "Don't you have errands to run to your master? Begone, slave!" after the first 1 or 2, maybe a yellow text that announces that 'Slaves may only take X writs per day'.

Would it suck for the dedicated Slave players? Yes. But it would also place greater emphasis on the Story while simultaneously not gamebreakingly crippling them, like the suggested level caps and what have you. Speedlevelers are keen on optimization, so they would likely seek other avenues following the change.

Suddenly, being an Outcast sounds a lot more appealing, as then you're not penalitized from writ-access but still get the benefits from playing in the Underdark.

I’ve seen many sides of the slavery system and find there are definitely issues with it. Some things that were mentioned like how all slaves are treated with hostility because they know that it’s an OOC consent thing. It’s awful. But equally slaves who basically act like outcasts and Andunorians. Typically people shouldn’t be okay with being collared. There may be rare exceptions but it shouldn’t be like a badge of honour to wear a collar.

But slave RP can also be incredibly deep and meaningful as I’ve experienced. And very rewarding. Many of the issues people seem to have with the system seems to have less to do with the mechanical aspects / system of slavery and more with community stuff. I.e. how people RP being a slave or when they encounter a (ex) slave. Or the weird sexual things people describe. I think it’s more those things that are the issue than the system itself. And those things should be reported and addressed. Slavery RP or not, many things mentioned in this thread shouldn’t be okay in general.

As for an easy start? Hardly. Writs in the UD are way harder than the surface writs. Most slaves get treated like dirt and cattle and get very little help with them. Making a lot of gold? No more than you would starting as an UDer or a Surfacer. I’m not sure what that statement was based on. In fact, for many slaves it’s harder to make gold since I often hear they are required to pay part of their earnings to their owners. As for the portal use? As soon as you’re not a slave anymore you can’t use them. So I don’t see the problem. Andunor doesn’t typically welcome chainbreakers with open arms.

And that’s another point for me. I find the slavery system can generate a ton of meaningful RP. This will likely make me unpopular for this opinion, but chainbreakers are everywhere. There are entire factions and groups set up to help slaves break free and it generates a lot of RP.

I don’t think it’s fair to treat all slaves with hostility. I understand it since so many times slaves have been played as if they’re UDers. I get this. Still there are many who don’t do that. Slaves or no. The same goes for evil characters and just instantly writing them off. Sometimes we may wish to give people a chance to change or go down a new path. Redemption is a thing (not for everyone, granted).

Anyway, long story short. I think perhaps it’s more beneficial to remind everyone around the expectations of the slavery system. Perhaps lock it behind RPR rating or something. But I’m all for keeping it. In a world where torture, imprisonment, cutting peoples limbs off, gore, murder and all that is a thing, I don’t agree that this is out of the ordinary. I by no means support any awkwardness however with slavery RP and it’s a responsibility of players in the community that everyone is comfortable with the scenario they are creating. If someone isn’t okay with something thats happening, we just need to communicate.

This mechanic adds far too little for the amount of contention it creates IMO.

I can't really say anything more that hasn't already been said in the thread already, but I do want to toss my two cents into the thread.

I'm personally not a big fan of the system.

If one of my good characters wants to help slaves. I basically have to break character if the person OOCly just decides. "Nah, I don't want to be freed".

My character literally cannot do anything, they cannot stop anything, they are just basically forced to watch as in sometimes rather gruesome or graphic ways, the characters brutalized publicly, and you're not really allowed to say anything or do anything about it.

I'll admit out of game I do not have a strong stomach when it comes to people deciding to get rather graphic in regards to whipping sessions or torture, so part of this adversity is from such being done in public places (especially places that you -have- to go through to go through day to day things)

But I also can say I've seen slaves, literally mouth off, and basically pretend they aren't enslaved (It's not a slave collar, this is a necklace, or I'm not a slave, and I'll kill anyone who says I am), and then when people try to punish said slave for them mouthing off, stealing, ect. The slave just straight murders them and then bashes their corpse for good measure. Which is, in my opinion, absolutely ridiculous.

I've not personally seen many good examples set for Slave RP, it feels like most slaves are either ICly comfortable with their position. "My master is the best!~" or act icly like they are miserable and want to be free, but if you ask them anything about it or try to imply you want to free them in some way, suddenly oocly it's "I don't want my character to be freed."

I just find the system frustrating and I find it really hard to justify ever caring about a slave.. despite some of my characters 1000% wanting to be sympathetic and find ways to get them out of their awful situations.

I've spoken my piece about the Slavery mechanic in other threads so I won't overly belabor the topic, but I'll be another voice saying it should go away if anyone is using this thread as a general tally.

In short:

The mechanics are clunky, the RP is sketchy, and it seems wildly at odds with the server stances on other topics. You can't have a pregnant woman in a scene, but you can have Reek being led about by a full chains and whips leather-clad Drow lady? That doesn't jive with me, and something about it feels conservative and hypocritical to me.

If it absolutely has to be done, it can just be an RP thing without ugly mechanical tags calling attention to it, but even then, I find myself questioning the value of that particular brand of escapism when its weighed against all the ways it can be played badly.

Kalthariam wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:10 pm I can't really say anything more that hasn't already been said in the thread already, but I do want to toss my two cents into the thread.

I'm personally not a big fan of the system.

If one of my good characters wants to help slaves. I basically have to break character if the person OOCly just decides. "Nah, I don't want to be freed".

The onus is on them to react to your characters offer IC, and your character to react to it IC. If they dont' want to be freed OOC they should find some way to make it plausible IC. Having a magical collar that they can't take off, and they ask you to not help because their master would kill them if they found out, is a good reason.

My character literally cannot do anything, they cannot stop anything, they are just basically forced to watch as in sometimes rather gruesome or graphic ways, the characters brutalized publicly, and you're not really allowed to say anything or do anything about it.

I can't remember the last time I saw something like that, but you can always turn around and leave- Or get in the way and attempt to stop it. There will be consequences from that, one way or another. But you should not stop playing your character or acting the way they would.

I'll admit out of game I do not have a strong stomach when it comes to people deciding to get rather graphic in regards to whipping sessions or torture, so part of this adversity is from such being done in public places (especially places that you -have- to go through to go through day to day things)

Graphic descriptive torture above PG-13 I think it's against the rules, if you see it, you should report it.

But I also can say I've seen slaves, literally mouth off, and basically pretend they aren't enslaved (It's not a slave collar, this is a necklace, or I'm not a slave, and I'll kill anyone who says I am), and then when people try to punish said slave for them mouthing off, stealing, ect. The slave just straight murders them and then bashes their corpse for good measure. Which is, in my opinion, absolutely ridiculous.

It's been years since I saw something like that, but did use to happen. Things changed a lot once the rule for 'not being in a relationship with your slaves' rolled in and it was a good change, because lord the sugar daddy slaves were godsawful and so were the power-trip harems of unruly quirky bratty slaves.

I've not personally seen many good examples set for Slave RP, it feels like most slaves are either ICly comfortable with their position. "My master is the best!~" or act icly like they are miserable and want to be free, but if you ask them anything about it or try to imply you want to free them in some way, suddenly oocly it's "I don't want my character to be freed."

What is wrong is the OOC aspect of it, if your character is say a Paladin with a good heart and someone is out there RPing how miserable they are and how much help they need, they should react to your attempts to help in-character. You should not change your RP based on that, if anything, like I say the onus is on them. Explain to them that your character is good aligned and to ignore a person that is pleading for help would be completely out of character. So if they could provide a reason for why your character can't or should not help (because it would make it worse) that would help the both of you. Maybe your character can't free them but it can get them something for the pain or a weapon to protect themselves.

I just find the system frustrating and I find it really hard to justify ever caring about a slave.. despite some of my characters 1000% wanting to be sympathetic and find ways to get them out of their awful situations.

This is very true. I think this is an many people have (including slaves, too) that the OOC consent blends in into IC and people just can't care because the slave character has OOCly opted into that kind of thing, and knowing this OOCly just makes the whole interaction feel pointless because of the knowledge the character won't succeed and won't win. At best. At worst it's a character spouting that 'they want to be slaves' due to the assumption, and modifying their IC behavior because of it.

I'm not sure of any way to get around it.

As a regular UD/Slave player, I have to say a lot of these views on bad slave roleplay seem entirely at odds with my experiences. Perhaps many of these issues used to be prevalent, but I don’t believe they are -that- common anymore. There are certainly more questionable commonplace RP behaviours to scrutinise than slavery, imo.

You won’t remove capture/slavery RP by disabling the mechanical tools. Some of the mechanics I do agree could be updated however.

You could impose a penalty like the totem druids get to those who are wearing slave collars. -4 to STR CON and DEX. This of course would be removed once the collar was. Would fit the penalties a slave should have, starved, constantly whipped and fatigued. Also some limit to having a bank, like none. Until such time as they remove the collar be it by there masters decision or they are freed by chain breakers.

Its quite disturbing how many slaves are millionaires. A real slave would have paid for there freedom along time ago.

On a personal level I actually am all for the slavery system, there's also no need to rename it in my opinion, but being a slaves should not be a way to be a human in the underdark and then walk around as if it doesn't matter.

Just my 2 cents worth.

My cents!

So, First of all, A lot of owners are exteemly -nice- it's.. suprising.

Never seen much trouble otherwise.

What irks me is those that wear a collar but don't let themselves be bought. This I have seen a lot over my time in the UD and honestly, They should stop lvling at 15 till bought.

And obviously some people are just really silly with rp, but that goes -everywhere-

Reallylongunneededplayername wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 12:24 pm What irks me is those that wear a collar but don't let themselves be bought

Wait what... they can just... do that? O.o

There was a Q&A thread about the topic where someone was very uncomfortable OOC about the person who wanted to buy them, who was being pushy and weird about it. And the overwhelming response was to report them. But also a DM reply saying that slaves are also expected to try and find player masters.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=36441

Something to clarity's sake, in the near future, after various other projects are settled - there will be some adjustments to the slavery system based on some of the valid criticism of it in the thread as well as trying to make it less of a "fun time" from an IC perspective. It will have more logic to it and a lot more nuance.

• Less OOC indicators - you will need to actually RP to find out who owns them. They will simply be owned / unowned.

• Slave calling will not be as reliable due to the nature in DnD of an unwilling teleportation target needing a saving throw.

• Slave calling will have cooldowns.

• Slaving calling will be a feature available only to a master so that slave catching RP can be valid.

• PC-class slavery will no longer be available from the start except for commoners.

• Active slavery shall have restrictions to both writs, disabling of all features involving guilds like the Radiant Heart, Piracy, etc.

• Portals and UD based slaves are being evaluated for ways to disrupt "tourism" slavery / writgaming.

• Freedom will be accessed in more narrative ways and masters will be able to provide it directly for a price.

• More system interaction and in game reaction to the system from NPCs - think banking, access to shops, etc.

The whole goal is to updated the age approach of the system, adjust it so people who want to do it narratively but do not like how set in stone / one sided it is will have options, and to overall make it more healthy in the setting.

Red Ropes wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:15 pm

• PC-class slavery will no longer be available from the start except for commoners.

This one is particularly great IMHO!!
If I may suggest something: either set a higher ECL or maybe cut the XP win from mobs/writs altogether too, as not to encourage people landing a paladin at cordor and then running to Andunor asking to be enslaved.

Glad to hear to hear the issue is being addressed

Edit: another suggestion is lowering the crafting points to avoid them being used as craftbots as others have said

Red Ropes wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:15 pm Something to clarity's sake, in the near future, after various other projects are settled - there will be some adjustments to the slavery system based on some of the valid criticism of it in the thread as well as trying to make it less of a "fun time" from an IC perspective. It will have more logic to it and a lot more nuance.

• Less OOC indicators - you will need to actually RP to find out who owns them. They will simply be owned / unowned.

• Slave calling will not be as reliable due to the nature in DnD of an unwilling teleportation target needing a saving throw.

• Slave calling will have cooldowns.

• Slaving calling will be a feature available only to a master so that slave catching RP can be valid.

• PC-class slavery will no longer be available from the start except for commoners.

• Active slavery shall have restrictions to both writs, disabling of all features involving guilds like the Radiant Heart, Piracy, etc.

• Portals and UD based slaves are being evaluated for ways to disrupt "tourism" slavery / writgaming.

• Freedom will be accessed in more narrative ways and masters will be able to provide it directly for a price.

• More system interaction and in game reaction to the system from NPCs - think banking, access to shops, etc.

The whole goal is to updated the age approach of the system, adjust it so people who want to do it narratively but do not like how set in stone / one sided it is will have options, and to overall make it more healthy in the setting.

This all sounds great.

Red Ropes wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:15 pm

• PC-class slavery will no longer be available from the start except for commoners.

The rest of the changes listed seem interesting but I'm a little concerned about this one. I agree it's a bit weird for some classes that require 'privileged' or special training to have a slave backstory (wizards, clerics, druids, etc.) but I don't think it's unthemely to have warrior/soldier type slaves (fighter, ranger, weapon master, etc) or spy-type slaves (rogues, invisible blade, etc) or even artist/performer slaves (bards, loremasters). I think restricting background-slaves to Commoner only will restrict creativity too much (I know I personally would probably never play a slave if this restriction was in place as I don't find Commoners to be fun for me). We'd probably see an increase in PCs made on the surface first and brought below just to get enslaved to avoid getting around the Commoner restriction, and I would personally rather not encourage this path too much.

I don't think slave classes need to be restricted. If the goal is to make slaves weaker/less dangerous in combat or more easily controllable I think some kind of mechanism for masters to trigger massive AB debuffs and spell failure would be more appropriate.

KT28 wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:09 am

Red Ropes wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:15 pm

• PC-class slavery will no longer be available from the start except for commoners.

I don't think slave classes need to be restricted. If the goal is to make slaves weaker/less dangerous in combat or more easily controllable I think some kind of mechanism for masters to trigger massive AB debuffs and spell failure would be more appropriate.

I've always like this kind of idea. My own was to allow masters to stun/disable their personally owned slaves on a cd-restricted item. It really helps to explain why a super-powered slave would submit to a less powerful owner.

Red Ropes wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:15 pm Something to clarity's sake, in the near future, after various other projects are settled - there will be some adjustments to the slavery system based on some of the valid criticism of it in the thread as well as trying to make it less of a "fun time" from an IC perspective. It will have more logic to it and a lot more nuance.

• Less OOC indicators - you will need to actually RP to find out who owns them. They will simply be owned / unowned.

• Slave calling will not be as reliable due to the nature in DnD of an unwilling teleportation target needing a saving throw.

• Slave calling will have cooldowns.

• Slaving calling will be a feature available only to a master so that slave catching RP can be valid.

• PC-class slavery will no longer be available from the start except for commoners.

• Active slavery shall have restrictions to both writs, disabling of all features involving guilds like the Radiant Heart, Piracy, etc.

• Portals and UD based slaves are being evaluated for ways to disrupt "tourism" slavery / writgaming.

• Freedom will be accessed in more narrative ways and masters will be able to provide it directly for a price.

• More system interaction and in game reaction to the system from NPCs - think banking, access to shops, etc.

The whole goal is to updated the age approach of the system, adjust it so people who want to do it narratively but do not like how set in stone / one sided it is will have options, and to overall make it more healthy in the setting.

All of this sounds great, thank you!

Morgy wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:18 am

KT28 wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:09 am

Red Ropes wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:15 pm

• PC-class slavery will no longer be available from the start except for commoners.

I don't think slave classes need to be restricted. If the goal is to make slaves weaker/less dangerous in combat or more easily controllable I think some kind of mechanism for masters to trigger massive AB debuffs and spell failure would be more appropriate.

I've always like this kind of idea. My own was to allow masters to stun/disable their personally owned slaves on a cd-restricted item. It really helps to explain why a super-powered slave would submit to a less powerful owner.

This is... surprisingly a good idea.