Arelith

Posted: **Wed Mar 02, 2022 8:12 pm**

A pure level 30 caster who specs that way is forgoing PvP by not having any discipline and the summons are so easily dispelled (SR buff can just be breached). I don't think it's out of line as it's all garbage in PvP and I overall think it's pretty reasonable in PvE given investment needed to make it that good. I don't have any character with Planar Conduit.

Also 49 AB is nice, but not way OP (it is only PvE anyway), and you've sacrificed a lot to get there. Is the +3 caster STR bonus hard stat so it stacks with the buffs? More realistically, consider a 27 caster without Greater Bulls, then it drops down a bit and that is far closer to what most people have. Also, remember the crit is just 20/2x.

I'm surprised about such a strong take on what is purely PvE balance, mainly during levelling rather than end-game. If that's the new way, then there are quite a few things that should be looked at...

Posted: **Wed Mar 02, 2022 8:47 pm**

Some experienced players here seem to be convinced that there are op mundane builds out there who grind pve better than naked no-gear summoners. This is false.

You have proof lol?

Posted: **Wed Mar 02, 2022 8:53 pm**

Quidix wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 8:12 pm A pure level 30 caster who specs that way is forgoing PvP by not having any discipline and the summons are so easily dispelled (SR buff can just be breached). I don't think it's out of line as it's all garbage in PvP and I overall think it's pretty reasonable in PvE given investment needed to make it that good. I don't have any character with Planar Conduit.

Also 49 AB is nice, but not way OP (it is only PvE anyway), and you've sacrificed a lot to get there. Is the +3 caster STR bonus hard stat so it stacks with the buffs? More realistically, consider a 27 caster without Greater Bulls, then it drops down a bit and that is far closer to what most people have. Also, remember the crit is just 20/2x.

I'm surprised about such a strong take on what is purely PvE balance, mainly during levelling rather than end-game. If that's the new way, then there are quite a few things that should be looked at...

It actually doesn't, since 27 is -1 ab. If you have empower, you're buffing +7 STR +4 AoV. If you have esf:trans that's now +9 STR +4 AoV. 27 Caster is 47-48 AB. And, yes the caster +3 STR is hard stat.

Posted: **Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:40 pm**

Ork wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 8:53 pm It actually doesn't, since 27 is -1 ab. If you have empower, you're buffing +7 STR +4 AoV. If you have esf:trans that's now +9 STR +4 AoV. 27 Caster is 47-48 AB. And, yes the caster +3 STR is hard stat.

46 AB, tested on PGCC, as the Slaad starts on an odd STR with 27CL (based on combat log). But, you are right the stat counts as hard bonus.

Posted: **Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:59 pm**

Quidix wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:40 pm 46 AB, tested on PGCC, as the Slaad starts on an odd STR with 27CL. But, you are right the stat counts as hard bonus.

Yes, here's a CL 30 ESF:Conju caster's Slaad as summonned. Regardless of what method we then use to give it +12 STR, it'll end up with STR 52 and AB 46

Posted: **Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:19 pm**

Character sheets lie. Have it hit something and post the combat log.

Posted: **Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:31 pm**

The unbuffed AB is 42 apparently. That'd put the fully buffed slaad at AB 48

Posted: **Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:39 pm**

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:02 pm
Ork wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:00 pm
-XXX- wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am
a) there are optimized builds that can grind faster, more efficiently and far easier with no summons whatsoever than any build with summons can.
Name them.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am b) piloting summons with the player tool while positioning the summonner is actually more challenging than merely steering one's own character.
Positioning is easy.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am c) hiding behind summons does not equate playing it more safe than hiding behind 55+ AC.
False. Solo Abby with 55 AC, I dare you.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am d) even epic summons need to be buffed for them not to fold to endgame PvE content. That represents a greater consumable expenditure than buffing only 1 toon.
Thankfully you're a mage.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am e) anything that can be achieved with the conduit summons can be done with Summon Creature IX - it just slows the grind into an insfferable slog.
All summons need to be nerfed.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am Should everything not physically attached to the character be a mere cosmetic perk that evaporates the instant initiative is rolled?
Yes
Hard agree. (i guess except that I think mummy dust doesnt need nerfs)

Literally any melee that can hit 60+ ac can solo Paush if they have any idea what they're doing. It's why certain resource markets are so flooded. On top of this Mindflayers, Gnit, and a few other easy addy nodes are all very simple to solo on a melee in addition to melees being fine at sea which is also good money. The only conceivable casters better than melees at pve are Warlocks and Druids (when meleeing themselves). I really don't know what build is being sought after when all that's needed is 60+ ac and 43+ ab. No specific build is needed as long as you can hit those values and anyone who tells you otherwise simply isn't leveraging items on the server effectively.

Posted: **Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:52 pm**

TurningLeaf wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:19 pm
Ork wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:07 pm Let's actually look at the white slaad since the character sheet lies.
I think you can get some leadership bonus on it too right? Or is that only for hirelings and pets?

hired hands and dominated monsters. It doesn't count for regular summons, that would be really really strong.

Posted: **Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:57 pm**

Ork wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:57 pm If feat investment is an excuse for out-of-balance mechanics, we should've kept the old monks. Balancing should occur at the "most optimal" level, since a lot of us have a lot of experience building to the point where we can achieve it.

None of the numbers here are too startling. You can achieve much better numbers by just not playing a summoner. Saves, AB, etc etc. A lot of the immunities that PC summons have, and the buffing you've described can be done on uh, a martial. And the remedy for both is the same. Mords. Shrug. I'm just not convinced that any of this is out of balance.

In order to get the numbers you're talking about, you have to put in a seven-feat investment there.(Three of them are epic feats! Epic feats you could spend on literally anything else!) You do get other cookies besides that, but you are making choices that will make you worse at other things. I mean, there's a reason nobody takes cleave and great cleave anymore, and it's because they're not great options if you want to anything else other than bully PVE enemies. Similarly, the foci you'll be investing into are mostly for that.

As much as I like trans foci, I have to admit it's usually a crutch that lets you build a little easier if you're willing to risk getting mord'd into oblivion and some nice QoL -- most of the best trans spells don't even have DCs. Conj foci has some nice usecases for classes with access to storm of vengeance or acid fog, but those aren't usually the spells I'd think of when I think of must-have spells, and they're more easily mitigated in PVP with the right tools.

Depending on the class you're playing -- a wizard v. sorc v. cleric etc etc -- this is an investment that is awkward to fit into a good build or an investment that will lock you in to one specific gimmick. It will affect what spells you pick and what spells you can rely on. If you got full power PC summons without any investment, I might raise a flag, but because you're loading so much of your potential onto your summons, you're really forgoing a lot of the oomph you'd get from going with the hellball/gruin combo getting foci in something like evo instead. You're essentially hamstringing yourself for better PVE numbers. And if all you want to do is PVE, that's fine!

Even well-built casters with a meaty healthpool can fold like a napkin the moment their summons collapse. A lot of the power they're bringing to the fight is quickly mitigated when they don't have anything to defend themselves. So, I'm not really convinced that having summons that end up with worse stats than PVP-oriented melee builds is really all that bad. Show me a combat class that ends up with reliably worse stats than the PC summons when optimally built and incapable of being as prepared and immune, and I think you might have something here, but until then it feels weird to insist summons are out of balance.

TL;DR -- The investment is too high for summons which have worse stats than most optimized PVP -- let alone optimized PVE -- builds to be out of balance. Especially when those summons can be easily and reliably thwarted with a one to two-action combo.

Edit:
I'm actually all for making spells like PC have some costly material component, but the problem is, if you tie it to spell components and piety, you're really just saying screw you to wizards and sorcerers. Piety's free and easy to get, and spell components, while basically free, can be time consuming to produce. On my wizard, I'll routinely go out and do spell components in bulk just so I don't have to think about them for awhile.

Edit 2:
Sorry, that's an eight-feat investment. I didn't count empower because empower is pretty useful on a variety of caster builds.

Posted: **Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:03 am**

Wings of Peace wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:39 pm Literally any melee that can hit 60+ ac can solo Paush if they have any idea what they're doing.

Not that I think it's true, but even if it is, then it just means casters can do it more easily and with less gold spent on consumables.

Besides, it still doesnt change the fact mundane needs to grind gold to be functional and a caster doesnt. A caster by definition has to spend less time grinding gold and then have more time to RP, while being just as functional after same time investment. you need to spend roughly about a million gp over the course of your character development as a mundane character, between what you spend on consumables (zoo, shield, ma, pfa, sometimes nep wands...) and having to switch between different tiers of gear as you level up, and eventually having to spend on end-game gear. A caster skips it while doing writs effortlessly, then spends everything on end-game gear at lvl 30. and honestly, I'm more of a caster than a mundane player these days, speaking from my experience leveling warlocks and favoured souls to 30 one by one, comparing it to my experience leveling a div swashbuckler, or a monk. I also think it's easier to solo a div evo/abjur sorc to 30, with no summon related focuses or epic spells then a mundane character. This situation creates a huge economical gap, and frankly it makes mundane builds less fun overall. I think casters who solo should be forced to use more spells and rest more frequently in dungeons and I think mundanes should have easier time gearing. Then we should be okay.

Posted: **Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:12 am**

AstralUniverse wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:03 am Besides, it still doesnt change the fact mundane needs to grind gold to be functional and a caster doesnt. A caster by definition has to spend less time grinding gold and then have more time to RP, while being just as functional after same time investment. you need to spend roughly about a million gp over the course of your character development as a mundane character, between what you spend on consumables (zoo, shield, ma, pfa, sometimes nep wands...) and having to switch between different tiers of gear as you level up, and eventually having to spend on end-game gear.

This is absolutely true. Playing a caster is instant QoL because you just don't have to spend money on anything. You can and eventually will, but the pressure to do so is much, much lower, because you are not going to eat dirt running into a dungeon that's appropriate for you because you're missing gear. This is probably a much better argument against the strength of summons right now than calling them overpowered or overtuned, imo. However, I do regularly and routinely burn through consumables to keep my summons healthy and happy in order to have enough spells to keep doing caster things.

Ironically, back when leveling was slower, the economic gap you were speaking of was a lot less of an issue. You'd generate a lot more wealth in earlier levels because you uh, had to do some self-motivated dungeon delving to get the EXP that writs wouldn't give you. You had more downtime, more time to RP, more time to cooperate with other people to get the gear you needed for your appropriate level. The new writ-changes might help alleviate some of that pressure gearing for your full build, as will, hopefully, the changes to the runic chest lottery. I don't necessarily think making casters more annoying to play is a great solution, though. You'll just make them less fun to be in a party with.

Posted: **Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:23 am**

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:57 pm
-XXX- wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am
Ork wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:02 am Planar Conduit and all summons in general need to be revised and nerfed. It is too easy to amass gold and xp with summons, and our dungeons don't require summoners to be attentive to the game in order to do so.
TBH I read this as little more than an eloquently put "clear these n00bs with builds that I don't respect of out of my runic dungeons" sentiment.

Because:
a) there are optimized builds that can grind faster, more efficiently and far easier with no summons whatsoever than any build with summons can.
b) piloting summons with the player tool while positioning the summonner is actually more challenging than merely steering one's own character.
c) hiding behind summons does not equate playing it more safe than hiding behind 55+ AC.
d) even epic summons need to be buffed for them not to fold to endgame PvE content. That represents a greater consumable expenditure than buffing only 1 toon.
e) anything that can be achieved with the conduit summons can be done with Summon Creature IX - it just slows the grind into an insfferable slog.

Should everything not physically attached to the character be a mere cosmetic perk that evaporates the instant initiative is rolled? Because that's the vibes I'm getting here.
I mean, I agree with you in spirit in this thread, but b-d are wrong. Micromanaging a melee character is way harder than steering summons, hiding behind summons is waaay safer than having 55+ ac because if things go wrong you have more than enough time to gs and retreat, and you are likely a consumable factory as a summon caster so no, you don't have to spend nearly as much as a melee on consumables...or really anything at all save maybe the random cross class scroll/wand. I rarely if ever do, but I'm sure some do that. A is truish, though I don't think you realize how difficult it can be to once again micromanage when things are going poorly when you are surrounded as opposed to off in the corner away from the fight, and e sounds right to me but the more I think about it the more I realize I haven't played with the planar conduit summons. Which means maybe I shouldn't be so quick to agree with you in spirit on the main point of this thread, because I could most certainly be wrong.

My summoner requires MUCH more micro skill than my e-dodge rogue.

Posted: **Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:39 am**

AstralUniverse wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:03 am
Wings of Peace wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:39 pm Literally any melee that can hit 60+ ac can solo Paush if they have any idea what they're doing.
Not that I think it's true, but even if it is, then it just means casters can do it more easily and with less gold spent on consumables.

Besides, it still doesnt change the fact mundane needs to grind gold to be functional and a caster doesnt. A caster by definition has to spend less time grinding gold and then have more time to RP, while being just as functional after same time investment. you need to spend roughly about a million gp over the course of your character development as a mundane character, between what you spend on consumables (zoo, shield, ma, pfa, sometimes nep wands...) and having to switch between different tiers of gear as you level up, and eventually having to spend on end-game gear. A caster skips it while doing writs effortlessly, then spends everything on end-game gear at lvl 30. and honestly, I'm more of a caster than a mundane player these days, speaking from my experience leveling warlocks and favoured souls to 30 one by one, comparing it to my experience leveling a div swashbuckler, or a monk. I also think it's easier to solo a div evo/abjur sorc to 30, with no summon related focuses or epic spells then a mundane character. This situation creates a huge economical gap, and frankly it makes mundane builds less fun overall. I think casters who solo should be forced to use more spells and rest more frequently in dungeons and I think mundanes should have easier time gearing. Then we should be okay.

I realize we weren't doing bullets but it makes things simpler so I'm going to format a little.

A.) Melee might need gear but it's not expensive or even pvp optimal gear. They just need to hit their ac and buffed stat caps along with netting some concealment which is far from bank breaking.

B.) Melee might need to spend more gp per run but their clear speed is vastly superior the conjurations. Considering the margins on things like Adamantine, Roguestones, good runics, Mithril Dust, and Bejurils the situation is speed > cost because you'll be making gobs of money no matter what at the margins these items can be sold for. The same is true of sailing because you'll clear ships faster which means you're free to find a new ship faster.

C.) The end gear needed to clear the lucrative pve grinds is far from what's needed for things like pvp. You basically just need to hit your breakpoints without need for things like Keen, 5% rolls, or runes. Compared to what you'll spend on pvp gear it's very cheap.

D.) Yes mundane leveling and gearing is a lot more of a chore in terms of cost/ease. I actually do agree on this. But I view it as separate from whether melees are better at pve. In pve to me its a question of the variety of content that can be cleared and the moneymaking potential when grinding (which is usually the incentive to solo). There's some discussion that can be had around if melees can clear the same variety of content as an optimal mage build but imo the melees that can hit 60s ac (even if just when in IE) are unquestionably better for moneymaking right now except for when compared to Druids/Warlocks as I mentioned.

E.) I disagree caster should be forced to expend more resources than they have to already when soloing because they already are due to the fact they're soloing instead off buff-botting a party. On top of this, they already have far less profit potential than the melee so the end result would effectively be punishing them for being the worse option.

Edit: It's been a bit so I'm adding this here instead of making a direct edit. I did a bad job writing C so it reads a lot like a rephrased A but the distinction I was trying to make with C was that an ac sufficient melee character with their basic pvp gear probably already has what they need in terms of gearing (not counting consumables depending on play style).

Posted: **Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:05 am**

Wings of Peace wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:39 am A.) Melee might need gear but it's not expensive or even pvp optimal gear. They just need to hit their ac and buffed stat caps along with netting some concealment which is far from bank breaking.

A caster doesnt need gear at all. The difference is still infinite.

Also, "just need to hit their ac and buffed stats" is kinda expensive for many if not most mundane builds. Especially if you're gonna go solo paush as you said you can. Your argument really doesnt hold here either way. Gear is required on one said and is not required on another said. Please dont make me repeat my entire previous post. A caster doesnt spend as much gp on kits, or consumables in general. 7 min ii wands are expensive but not using them means not cutting the damage you're taking in half (or the damage the summon is taking). Casters have stuff like that in the spellbook. Also stuff like Regeneration. There's really NO contest here.

Wings of Peace wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:39 am Melee might need to spend more gp per run but their clear speed is vastly superior the conjurations.

That used to be the case back when summons were all more like the ancient water elemental. High DR, high sustain but agonizingly slow pve clear. It was actually okay back then. A caster *could* solo but would still very much prefer a party - that's healthy - but now as a caster I dont even want to share my loot with a party when my slaads or epic warlock summon just steamroll everything lol. Why would I party with anyone for gold/rune farming for example as a caster. As a mundane on the other hand, I always prefer partying because that would seriously cut down the amount of gold I've spent on consumables and mid-game gear. I certainly liked it more then summons were about durability but not about high dps. I get that they are squishier now but maybe not enough. Again, mummy dust is a solid pillar of balance imo. We should balance around it. And vamps/mummies get like mid 30s ab atm, not high 40s. They also dont have 7-70 damage what the heck. mummy dust is good for pve but if you arent careful and strategic they can be burst down. Their value in pvp should be obvious, they punish low ac/discipline and provide 3 hit boxes to block for you while also being fairly easy to get rid of, as they dont have any SR or amazing saves and are undead (unless you're a PM and/or undying lock, which are designed as downgrades in power for sustainability, so there are big trade-offs). I think this is an example for good balance on summons atm.

Wings of Peace wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:39 am C.) The end gear needed to clear the lucrative pve grinds is far from what's needed for things like pvp. You basically just need to hit your breakpoints without need for things like Keen, 5% rolls, or runes. Compared to what you'll spend on pvp gear it's very cheap.

See point A. Casters have roughly a million gold advantage over mundanes when building end-game gear. This is because they can just level to 30 naked with little to no consumables used. Whatever you're saying that's easy about mundanes is a million gold easier for a caster.

Wings of Peace wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:39 am but imo the melees that can hit 60s ac (even if just when in IE) are unquestionably better for moneymaking right now except for when compared to Druids/Warlocks as I mentioned.

Yeah maybe a wm farming gold in a mid-level dungeon can grind coin faster than caster in the same level, but casters still farm runes far better and I think we can agree that if a rune container is worth about 50k by average then casters still have an edge even in that scenario.

I will reiterate my opinion once more.

The fact some spells (banishment, wof, turn X) make heavy investments into summoning kinda suck, puts summons in a strange place where they are very good QoL, very strong in pvp in some situations, and quite utterly garbage in other situations. They cause an economical gap between casters and mundanes BIG TIME because of how they're designed in current times (a bit more squishy than few years back, but instead more offensive - faster pve clear).

Posted: **Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:58 am**

AstralUniverse wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:05 am
Wings of Peace wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:39 am A.) Melee might need gear but it's not expensive or even pvp optimal gear. They just need to hit their ac and buffed stat caps along with netting some concealment which is far from bank breaking.
A caster doesnt need gear at all. The difference is still infinite.

Also, "just need to hit their ac and buffed stats" is kinda expensive for many if not most mundane builds. Especially if you're gonna go solo paush as you said you can. Your argument really doesnt hold here either way. Gear is required on one said and is not required on another said. Please dont make me repeat my entire previous post. A caster doesnt spend as much gp on kits, or consumables in general. 7 min ii wands are expensive but not using them means not cutting the damage you're taking in half (or the damage the summon is taking). Casters have stuff like that in the spellbook. Also stuff like Regeneration. There's really NO contest here.

Wings of Peace wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:39 am Melee might need to spend more gp per run but their clear speed is vastly superior the conjurations.
That used to be the case back when summons were all more like the ancient water elemental. High DR, high sustain but agonizingly slow pve clear. It was actually okay back then. A caster *could* solo but would still very much prefer a party - that's healthy - but now as a caster I dont even want to share my loot with a party when my slaads or epic warlock summon just steamroll everything lol. Why would I party with anyone for gold/rune farming for example as a caster. As a mundane on the other hand, I always prefer partying because that would seriously cut down the amount of gold I've spent on consumables and mid-game gear. I certainly liked it more then summons were about durability but not about high dps. I get that they are squishier now but maybe not enough. Again, mummy dust is a solid pillar of balance imo. We should balance around it. And vamps/mummies get like mid 30s ab atm, not high 40s. They also dont have 7-70 damage what the heck. mummy dust is good for pve but if you arent careful and strategic they can be burst down. Their value in pvp should be obvious, they punish low ac/discipline and provide 3 hit boxes to block for you while also being fairly easy to get rid of, as they dont have any SR or amazing saves and are undead (unless you're a PM and/or undying lock, which are designed as downgrades in power for sustainability, so there are big trade-offs). I think this is an example for good balance on summons atm.

Wings of Peace wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:39 am C.) The end gear needed to clear the lucrative pve grinds is far from what's needed for things like pvp. You basically just need to hit your breakpoints without need for things like Keen, 5% rolls, or runes. Compared to what you'll spend on pvp gear it's very cheap.
See point A. Casters have roughly a million gold advantage over mundanes when building end-game gear. This is because they can just level to 30 naked with little to no consumables used. Whatever you're saying that's easy about mundanes is a million gold easier for a caster.

Wings of Peace wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:39 am but imo the melees that can hit 60s ac (even if just when in IE) are unquestionably better for moneymaking right now except for when compared to Druids/Warlocks as I mentioned.
Yeah maybe a wm farming gold in a mid-level dungeon can grind coin faster than caster in the same level, but casters still farm runes far better and I think we can agree that if a rune container is worth about 50k by average then casters still have an edge even in that scenario.

I will reiterate my opinion once more.

The fact some spells (banishment, wof, turn X) make heavy investments into summoning kinda suck, puts summons in a strange place where they are very good QoL, very strong in pvp in some situations, and quite utterly garbage in other situations. They cause an economical gap between casters and mundanes BIG TIME because of how they're designed in current times (a bit more squishy than few years back, but instead more offensive - faster pve clear).

Most of these points about gear cost comparisons are compelling because you're ignoring the cost of components over the caster's career (hint, this cost is why most feel compelled to make their own components to save gp same as melees save by making their own gear). The break points are cheap but I think we just disagree about that so there isn't much to add. I do actually disagree about runics and would suggest a survey of runics on the server if you feel melees lack solo farms for these. If your plan for melee money is circle grinding mid-level dungeons I'd also suggest a content survey as well both for raw gp rewards and valuable mars/drop rewards. A lot of the rest of what you've said is about gearing ease rather than effectiveness at solo farming which was my main focus. I do agree caster QoL eclipses melee but most of your points just aren't reflective of the current optimal farms imo.

Posted: **Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:04 am**

AstralUniverse wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:05 am That used to be the case back when summons were all more like the ancient water elemental. High DR, high sustain but agonizingly slow pve clear. It was actually okay back then. A caster *could* solo but would still very much prefer a party - that's healthy - but now as a caster I dont even want to share my loot with a party when my slaads or epic warlock summon just steamroll everything lol.

So what you're saying here is that you preferred a class balance where only melee could solo efficiently when they weren't in a sharing mood

Posted: **Thu Mar 03, 2022 4:04 am**

AstralUniverse wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:05 am And vamps/mummies get like mid 30s ab atm, not high 40s.

46+ was possible in a specific build on specific classes only, requiring pure caster build with 8 feats to achieve. If you build your entire character around that, thats awesome congrats, you're good at ONE THING which is easily foiled.
Mind you, If you do the same on a PURE CASTER with necromancy the numbers are approaching the sameheight mummy dust w ith vampires - you can get 44+ on a pure build

But most people aren't playing pure builds. This is a complicated game of rock paper scissors. You can have many variations each with advantages and drawbacks.
They want a DIP, for things like discipline, to have more utility and survivability and any other conceivable factors.
a 3 level specialist DIP equates to -3AB off the numbers above everyone else has so kindly demonstrated.
Not being a transmuter and/or not being a class with Aura of Vitality is -4 AB further reduced.
All of a sudden, you're talking about an AB of 38-40ish on the two EPIC FEAT SUMMONS.
40AB for an epic feat..... is not overtuned.

Having played a pure build conjurer recently up to 30 recently, and doing a necromancer currently, (and have done many variations on both at least 20 times before.... I like casters more than melees, and i roll toons ALOT)

Summoners, in general, are SLOWER at clearing than melees. this is a fact. But the trade off is a more cost-efficient grind.
You build for what you want out of the game. Each build, has pros, and cons.
Weapon masters, can ungabunga casters in two-three hits - IF you build for it - And this is definitely going to happen if you're rolling up with a 30CL caster class with no disc dump.

Pre warlock nerf* (read: awesome warlock update) - i had a build with a balor on 52AB & 55AC + 50% concealment.
Numbers are great on paper, but i had to sacrifice any enjoyable playability to hit that number.

AstralUniverse wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:05 am See point A. Casters have roughly a million gold advantage over mundanes when building end-game gear. This is because they can just level to 30 naked with little to no consumables used. Whatever you're saying that's easy about mundanes is a million gold easier for a caster.

I don't know where your million gold metric came from.... But my current necromancer (wizard), with specialist dip, epic appraise/search.... is at roughly 200k in the bank at level 25, and all i've spent on him is a full set of int/con gear + spell components.

AstralUniverse wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:05 am I will reiterate my opinion once more.

Glad we can acknowledge an opinion is separate from fact - and the million gold metric is an opinion.

*my apologies for terrible writing style and typos.

Posted: **Thu Mar 03, 2022 4:22 am**

Btw. since we're at the topic about pets... 19 Animal Empathy

Posted: **Thu Mar 03, 2022 4:33 am**

You know what's wild? they'd benefit from leadership buffs. Shame the AB is doodoo.

Posted: **Thu Mar 03, 2022 4:50 am**

-XXX- wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 4:39 pm
TurningLeaf wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 4:16 pm But the topic is "summons feel a bit strong" not "summons > PC". See... pro summons propaganda lol.
Arcane spellcasters essentially ARE their summons when we talk about PvE. Should they be forced to use spells in each and every encounter, then they'd have never made it past the first half of any dungeon before running out of spells.
Furthermore, whenever the summons fail, that's it - the mage is packing their things and is going home (either via a lens or the fugue portal).

If we mislabel one side of this argument as the pro summons propaganda, then the other side would have to be the ban casters from PvE content movement.

This is the meta, but this is the easy-mode meta. All of my casters, including my wizard, can't use conjuration for one reason or another. It's true that on my evocation specialist I can't just hurl fifteen booms per fight and call it a day unless I want to rest every few fights.

It's also true that if I drop one or two large AoE's, almost all of the enemies in an encounter are usually dead or a hard sneeze away from it, and my line-up includes plenty of them, which makes it an easy mop-up situation for the party across quite a few encounters. During a difficult fight, you can still go ham, and since the fight was difficult, and you had to go ham, the party is usually okay with stopping to rest.

I don't find summons to be OP - personally, compared to how summons are supposed to work, I find the NWN version to be drastically underpowered; to begin with, you're supposed to be able to summon whole armies out of your spell allotment if you want, rather than one minion at a time until they die or you replace them. If summons worked RAW, they'd be the only thing I focus on killing before healers.

But I'd rather not hang a hat on the argument that casters can't cope with PvE without them- mine certainly did.

Posted: **Thu Mar 03, 2022 5:08 am**

by AstralUniverse » 03 Mar 2022 02:05

Wings of Peace wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022 00:39
A.) Melee might need gear but it's not expensive or even pvp optimal gear. They just need to hit their ac and buffed stat caps along with netting some concealment which is far from bank breaking.
A caster doesnt need gear at all. The difference is still infinite.

Also, "just need to hit their ac and buffed stats" is kinda expensive for many if not most mundane builds. Especially if you're gonna go solo paush as you said you can. Your argument really doesnt hold here either way. Gear is required on one said and is not required on another said. Please dont make me repeat my entire previous post. A caster doesnt spend as much gp on kits, or consumables in general. 7 min ii wands are expensive but not using them means not cutting the damage you're taking in half (or the damage the summon is taking). Casters have stuff like that in the spellbook. Also stuff like Regeneration. There's really NO contest here.
Wings of Peace wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022 00:39
Melee might need to spend more gp per run but their clear speed is vastly superior the conjurations.
That used to be the case back when summons were all more like the ancient water elemental. High DR, high sustain but agonizingly slow pve clear. It was actually okay back then. A caster *could* solo but would still very much prefer a party - that's healthy - but now as a caster I dont even want to share my loot with a party when my slaads or epic warlock summon just steamroll everything lol. Why would I party with anyone for gold/rune farming for example as a caster. As a mundane on the other hand, I always prefer partying because that would seriously cut down the amount of gold I've spent on consumables and mid-game gear. I certainly liked it more then summons were about durability but not about high dps. I get that they are squishier now but maybe not enough. Again, mummy dust is a solid pillar of balance imo. We should balance around it. And vamps/mummies get like mid 30s ab atm, not high 40s. They also dont have 7-70 damage what the heck. mummy dust is good for pve but if you arent careful and strategic they can be burst down. Their value in pvp should be obvious, they punish low ac/discipline and provide 3 hit boxes to block for you while also being fairly easy to get rid of, as they dont have any SR or amazing saves and are undead (unless you're a PM and/or undying lock, which are designed as downgrades in power for sustainability, so there are big trade-offs). I think this is an example for good balance on summons atm.
Wings of Peace wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022 00:39
C.) The end gear needed to clear the lucrative pve grinds is far from what's needed for things like pvp. You basically just need to hit your breakpoints without need for things like Keen, 5% rolls, or runes. Compared to what you'll spend on pvp gear it's very cheap.
See point A. Casters have roughly a million gold advantage over mundanes when building end-game gear. This is because they can just level to 30 naked with little to no consumables used. Whatever you're saying that's easy about mundanes is a million gold easier for a caster.
Wings of Peace wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022 00:39
but imo the melees that can hit 60s ac (even if just when in IE) are unquestionably better for moneymaking right now except for when compared to Druids/Warlocks as I mentioned.
Yeah maybe a wm farming gold in a mid-level dungeon can grind coin faster than caster in the same level, but casters still farm runes far better and I think we can agree that if a rune container is worth about 50k by average then casters still have an edge even in that scenario.

I will reiterate my opinion once more.

The fact some spells (banishment, wof, turn X) make heavy investments into summoning kinda suck, puts summons in a strange place where they are very good QoL, very strong in pvp in some situations, and quite utterly garbage in other situations. They cause an economical gap between casters and mundanes BIG TIME because of how they're designed in current times (a bit more squishy than few years back, but instead more offensive - faster pve clear).

So much misinformation in this post its mind boggling lol. Casters absolutely need gear that is a simple fact. Also saying you can use planar conduit to solo Paush is a lie, even fully buffed they struggle to handle the white dragon and i have to keep them healed constantly to do so and it takes hours for them to kill it if im not helping them with buffs and damage spells. Also i have never had anywhere near a million gold and still dont so i dont know where you are getting the idea that casters have a million gold more to spend by max level then mundanes?

Posted: **Thu Mar 03, 2022 8:52 am**

If what you really mean is that 'casters have more gold', then let's make a separate thread for that and stop pretending there's an issue with summons.

Posted: **Thu Mar 03, 2022 10:34 am**

Soo..

I been trying to find more knowelge about the Illusion variants of the summons, done by Shadow Conjuration and Greater Shadow Conjurations..

And i seem to be going in a dead end on the wiki.
http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Summons
http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Summoning_Changes

I cannot find info on these variants? Anyone knows where to find more info on this?

Posted: **Thu Mar 03, 2022 10:58 am**

Exordius wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 5:08 am
So much misinformation in this post its mind boggling lol. Casters absolutely need gear that is a simple fact. Also saying you can use planar conduit to solo Paush is a lie, even fully buffed they struggle to handle the white dragon and i have to keep them healed constantly to do so and it takes hours for them to kill it if im not helping them with buffs and damage spells. Also i have never had anywhere near a million gold and still dont so i dont know where you are getting the idea that casters have a million gold more to spend by max level then mundanes?

So, let me lean in here. Just because you apparently cannot do it does not mean it is misinformation. My sacrifice build (a build I use to level to 26th with 1 million gold for rewards) is a caster build wizard/pm. During the course of leveling this build to 26th level, I buy nothing other than 2 lore rings, bags, heal kits, food and water and occasionally some divine wands (restoration line) I also craft nothing and wear what I find. The one exception is that I create a full set of open lock / disable traps / search equipment which I often wear. I easily hit the 1 million coin mark and as I noted, I buy and craft no equipment.

Melee builds on the other hand take constant attention to AC and Damage. They have to increase weapons and equipment in stages. Summoning casters in comparison can literally wear chest fodder until 30. They can actually continue wearing chest fodder until you roll them if you wish, but at that point why not build out your equioment.

A summons based caster needs NO equipment to hit level 30 … they can do it naked and do it easily. If you need equipment, your playstyle is the issue. If you are struggling to kill the white dragon and it is taking hours … you are doing it wrong. You should be able to take that dragon on any summoning caster as soon as you have your first epic summon feat (which ever one it is) and if you cannot, get better, it is trivial. I have done it with literally dozens of summoners over the years. On my sacrifice builds, I heal my summons with kits the damage is that trivial to mitigate.

So this is me, telling you what was posted is 100% accurate because I do it myself.

So, this is an old video from back when EDK was stronger, I have no clue if you could do it with the current EDK or another summon but it perhaps shows you what is plausible even if it is no longer an accurate representation:
https://youtu.be/w3ouZQSCnFA

Arelith

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