Arelith

-XXX- wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 1:30 am Ah, I see... so that'd make aura of vitality + battletide + aid + deafening clang. That's four rounds of wind-up (five to clang both summons) to apply all the necessary round/lvl duration buffs. And the summonner is a pure caster build with no discipline.
While factually not wrong, this is pure unbridled theorycrafting.

aura of vitality is minutes/lvl from a transmuter

summons can't cast battletide

aid is minutes/lvl

deafening clang doesn't increase AB. why is it mentioned?

Nvm, so it's prayer, belss aid apparently. It's beside the point really, turns out that anything can become OP once you slap every concievable buff in the game onto it. Thankfully there's always the dracolich solution for that.

48 ab with that much damage is still obscene when compared to a lot of melee builds. That is comparing a summon to a character.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:36 am Nvm, so it's prayer, belss aid apparently. It's beside the point really, turns out that anything can become OP once you slap every concievable buff in the game onto it. Thankfully there's always the dracolich solution for that.

i am of the opinion things should be balanced around the assumption that people are using the full extent of their kit, not 75% of it.

there's been a lot of hyperbolic language:
"pure unbridled theorycrafting"
"now THAT's bonkers"
"comitting your entire spell list to it in the process"
"slap every concievable buff in the game"

but then you think deafening clang gives AB.

anyway, the build i achieved that with wasn't even a pure 30 caster. it has disc and it can do more than just buff summons. i didn't slap every conceivable buff or commit my entire spellbook towards achieving it. i could actually get it higher by about 3 if i did.

yes, that's right. if i went super cheese i could get 55 ab on conduit.

Zavandar wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:55 am

-XXX- wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:36 am Nvm, so it's prayer, belss aid apparently. It's beside the point really, turns out that anything can become OP once you slap every concievable buff in the game onto it. Thankfully there's always the dracolich solution for that.

i am of the opinion things should be balanced around the assumption that people are using the full extent of their kit, not 75% of it.

there's been a lot of hyperbolic language:
"pure unbridled theorycrafting"
"now THAT's bonkers"
"comitting your entire spell list to it in the process"
"slap every concievable buff in the game"

but then you think deafening clang gives AB.

anyway, the build i achieved that with wasn't even a pure 30 caster. it has disc and it can do more than just buff summons. i didn't slap every conceivable buff or commit my entire spellbook towards achieving it. i could actually get it higher by about 3 if i did.

yes, that's right. if i went super cheese i could get 55 ab on conduit.

may as well assume you have a bard too and round that ab up even more

Memes at its finest wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:00 am

Zavandar wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:55 am

-XXX- wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:36 am Nvm, so it's prayer, belss aid apparently. It's beside the point really, turns out that anything can become OP once you slap every concievable buff in the game onto it. Thankfully there's always the dracolich solution for that.

i am of the opinion things should be balanced around the assumption that people are using the full extent of their kit, not 75% of it.

there's been a lot of hyperbolic language:
"pure unbridled theorycrafting"
"now THAT's bonkers"
"comitting your entire spell list to it in the process"
"slap every concievable buff in the game"

but then you think deafening clang gives AB.

anyway, the build i achieved that with wasn't even a pure 30 caster. it has disc and it can do more than just buff summons. i didn't slap every conceivable buff or commit my entire spellbook towards achieving it. i could actually get it higher by about 3 if i did.

yes, that's right. if i went super cheese i could get 55 ab on conduit.

may as well assume you have a bard too and round that ab up even more

that number is from just the character's kit. balancing w/ the involvement of other characters is a whole other can of worms.

I think it’s been pretty well demonstrated that the high-end potential of the Conduit summons it a bit wacky.

I hope the team can find some way to tone that down without rendering the feat useless for, say, the non-Conjuration sorcerer type relying on it to bash mobs for them.

Zavandar wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:55 am i am of the opinion things should be balanced around the assumption that people are using the full extent of their kit, not 75% of it.

there's been a lot of hyperbolic language:
"pure unbridled theorycrafting"
"now THAT's bonkers"
"comitting your entire spell list to it in the process"
"slap every concievable buff in the game"

but then you think deafening clang gives AB.

anyway, the build i achieved that with wasn't even a pure 30 caster. it has disc and it can do more than just buff summons. i didn't slap every conceivable buff or commit my entire spellbook towards achieving it. i could actually get it higher by about 3 if i did.

yes, that's right. if i went super cheese i could get 55 ab on conduit.

It's been outlined in the previous thread how reaching the full extent of this specific kit can be class, even build specific. In this particular case, had the conduit been sweepingly nerfed to make it balanced for divine spellcasters, it'd end up sucking for arcanists, wizards in particular (hilariously enough, clerics would then turn and go "elemental swarm welcome!" while leaving arcanists, who arguably need good summons more, with only lousy options).
So maybe the specific builds that bring a feature into overdrive should be addressed individually rather than just going ham on the ability itself.

Which brings me to the next point: 55AB? Awsome! Show us, so THAT can be nerfed!

And clang actually does buff AB, I just didn't bother to check if it stacks with the summon's weapon. My bad, but you had me guessing at this point.

Arienette wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:15 am I think it’s been pretty well demonstrated that the high-end potential of the Conduit summons it a bit wacky.

I hope the team can find some way to tone that down without rendering the feat useless for, say, the non-Conjuration sorcerer type relying on it to bash mobs for them.

Yeah, that's why I mentioned the dracolich solution - the dracolich is summonned with a permanent STR soft buff to prevend NE burst and other STR buffs from pushing it into ridiculous numbers.

-XXX- wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:23 am

Zavandar wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:55 am i am of the opinion things should be balanced around the assumption that people are using the full extent of their kit, not 75% of it.

there's been a lot of hyperbolic language:
"pure unbridled theorycrafting"
"now THAT's bonkers"
"comitting your entire spell list to it in the process"
"slap every concievable buff in the game"

but then you think deafening clang gives AB.

anyway, the build i achieved that with wasn't even a pure 30 caster. it has disc and it can do more than just buff summons. i didn't slap every conceivable buff or commit my entire spellbook towards achieving it. i could actually get it higher by about 3 if i did.

yes, that's right. if i went super cheese i could get 55 ab on conduit.

It's been outlined in the precious thread how reaching the full extent of this specific kit can be class, even build specific. In this particular case, had the conduit been sweepingly nerfed to make it balanced for divine spellcasters, it'd end up sucking for arcanists, wizards in particular (hilariously enough, clerics would then turn and go "elemental swarm welcome!").
So maybe the specific builds that bring a feature into overdrive should be addressed individually rather than just going ham on the ability itself.

Which brings me to the next point: 55AB? Awsome! Show us, so THAT can be nerfed!

And clang actually does buff AB, I just didn't bother checking if it stacks with the summon's weapon. My bad, but you kept me guessing.

i do agree that arcanists atm feel like worse summoners than divine classes. they lack sr, regen, shield of faith, vestments (since some of the conduit summons have armor (which i think should be changed amd )), and aura of vitality. they have mage armor but that can be provided via umd. the only thing they have over cleric/fs for their summons is mass haste (but even that can be achieved, though to an inferior degree, with umd). you have ench specialist wizards that can buff them a tiny bit more but that's about it.

also, comparing summons 1 to 1 between arcanists and div isn't super fair because of the respective kits of their casters. a cleric has a better summon but the mage has igms but the cleric has wof but the mage has mords, etc. this is an issue, if it's an issue at all, not unique to conduit.

but.

even for an arcanist it is too strong.

mummy dust, from what i've observed/my understanding, is supposed to be like an upgraded sc9 or ele swarm. it succeeds at this.

edk is in a bad spot, but should be like a better gate (it's not right now).

conduit is supposed to be like mdust (non-evil mdust was literally how it was advertised) but right now it's just miles ahead of everything. this has been demonstrated via the numbers. a possible nerf would be to give them a passive soft ab buff at (or close to) cap so that their ab can only be increased by so much (the draco-lich route was to give them like a passive +10 to soft str so they could only be buffed a tiny bit more but that route would still favor cleric/fs). the top end still needs to be lowered for both their ab and their damage (and hell, maybe even ac). i don't like to speculate too much on these kinds of fixes because i'm very ignorant where coding is concerned and idk what's possible to do.

i think shooting for 44ish ab is ok, and honestly i think they could stand to lose at least 30% of their damage. i know that opinion won't make me super popular.

Evangelist Cleric, by the way. Cleric 27, bard 3

Really don't understand why people always want to nerf stuff when 90% of the time they don't even use it and it does not affect them anyway. Maybe instead of trying to fix op summons should try to fix the outrageously op mobs first lol.

Zavandar wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:50 am i think shooting for 44ish ab is ok, and honestly i think they could stand to lose at least 30% of their damage. i know that opinion won't make me super popular.

TBH, I could get behind those numbers. It'd still be great for PvE and not completely irrelevant in PvP. Anecdotally, it's very close to what I've been using and have seen other players using 90% of the time - it really isn't practical to keep one's summons buffed with everything that's available all the time.

But that'd still leave the dust summons behind by a considerable margin. I don't disagree with Xerah in that some benchmarks should be kept as such, but IMO the meta has outgrown and surpassed this one some time ago.

Scurvy Cur wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:52 pm When someone observes that mummy dust is weaker than conduit, it should not be taken as a statement that mummy dust is too weak.

It is a statement that conduit is too strong.

This.

Make PC arcane only seems the best solution.

Curve wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:10 pm 52 an summon is nutty . Consider how many melee builds can’t get anywhere near those numbers. Those are characters.

While I do agree with this, the fact remains that even with efficient use of the associate tool, summons are 100% dumb idiots. If you don't give them insane power, they are next to useless. There is some truth to that, for sure.

In other words, a player character at 52-55AB can cause havoc and break the balance of the game. A summon at 52-55AB merely justifies its existence, right?

But what about your summon being just too powerful? Summons kill dragons, summons kill liches, summons trample over everything including players who (god forbid) have not yet reached lvl 30 or are in trash gear. As an example: if you play a character who is not mechanically optimal, or a weaker combat character like a Bard, the mummies will just kill you in two rounds. They attack as a group and level drain you and kill you while their owner gleefully spams IGMS at you.

Another example: a ranger at lvl 14 is just a ranger. Hitting lvl 15 overtunes its companion and itself by a huge margin. Effectively, a ranger doubles its damage output and tankability just by attaining the feat Bloodlust and using Awaken on its companion. From then on, the companion just. Kills. Everything. What a fighter can do by lvl 15, the ranger can do twice as well. The leap of power is frankly jaw dropping, its not balanced - mainly due to the companion being too strong and self sufficient. By lvl 30 the bear has 55 AB and is cheesing everything next to the ranger who is virtually a blender on its own.

Reading this topic I understand there's a frustration coming from the Arcanists who lack Regeneration and Spell Resistance for their summons. Its understandable, because even an Elemental Swarm or Summon IX can be virtually immortal with proper buffing from the druid, even without Imp Invis. I can only imagine what Mummy Dust and Conduit can do under a cleric. Arcane casters lack a lot of this utility for their summons, and since the caster meta is dominated by summons, the arcanists hurt.

I say give some summons inherrent SR, Regeneration, maybe Evasion etc so that they do not die to meteor spam too easily, so Arcanists can be able to hide behind them better to use their spells efficiently. Then make the AB of summons weaker, so that they can't trample over bosses and players as well. 50+ AB summons is kind of absurd, just make them a lot tankier is my opinion.

Summons being tanks that cause little to no actual damage would require that they also automatically use -guard, as monsters will already happily peel off the summon to go whack on the caster the moment they cast a spell if the summon isn't currently targeting them.

Inherent SR and/or higher hit die (not necessarily more hp, but hit die) would go a long way in fixing Conduit's limitations in pve. Lowering their damage/ab some for the sake of pve wouldn't hurt as bad in that case.

But yea, I think there's a bit of a disconnect here, talking about planar conduit out of the box vs what Clerics can do to them with their amazingly versatile and buff-filled spell list. if I could cast Spell Resistance, Aid, Prayer and Regeneration I probably would have a much different experience with Conduit than I presently do as a wizard.

Specialist Conjurer has a great time with Summons.

Distant Relation wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:50 pm Inherent SR and/or higher hit die (not necessarily more hp, but hit die) would go a long way in fixing Conduit's limitations in pve. Lowering their damage/ab some for the sake of pve wouldn't hurt as bad in that case.

But yea, I think there's a bit of a disconnect here, talking about planar conduit out of the box vs what Clerics can do to them with their amazingly versatile and buff-filled spell list. if I could cast Spell Resistance, Aid, Prayer and Regeneration I probably would have a much different experience with Conduit than I presently do as a wizard.

If you're concerned about dismissal or banishment in PvE, buff their will save. Protection vs. alignment, protection from spells, and owl's will all be enough to avoid failing the DC. That will give that will save a +16 on their base will.

Distant Relation wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:50 pm planar conduit out of the box vs what Clerics can do to them

god this thread is bleak. ok.

Planar Conduit out of the box, the slaad ones:






dragon knight out of the box, the red one:



unbuffed: The slaad has 4 ab less, the same AC, more HP, and higher damage.

Because surely everyone in this thread is acting in good faith: Please remember that this white slaad has an uneven strength score, meaning if you add +5 str which ANY caster can do for HOURS per LEVEL, it gets a +3 bonus, taking its AB to 43 in log. The Epic Dragon Knight, which is not hours per level, is only 1 ab ahead. If we assume "hours per level buffs" on the "worst" planar conduit, it outclasses epic dragon knight by every metric other than that one ab point and SR, unless you're a transmu mage or have AoV- duration, damage, AC, DR typing, the fact that there's two of them.

in fact, if you want to go 'well ackshully,' I'll do it for you: A conjuration spec wizard would give the conduit resistance and permahaste, aye? And have a chance to summon two of the tier 6s, as well.

Not "Cleric specific" hours per level buffs, either. Basic Zoo Buffs on a hours/per level summon because we aren't balancing for Jimmy Who Can't Read And Just Clicks Red Man But Still Wants To Post Opinions About Mechanics, right? We're balancing for actual humans at absolute minimum.

So unless you literally brain-dead afk farm with an unbuffed summon and that's your metric, PC is stronger than dragon knight.
Why is Planar Conduit stronger than dragon knight?

Drowboy wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:12 pm Why is Planar Conduit stronger than dragon knight?

Because EDK in its current form is a mess. Why'd you choose to use it for comparison?

Ork wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 1:26 pm

Distant Relation wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:50 pm Inherent SR and/or higher hit die (not necessarily more hp, but hit die) would go a long way in fixing Conduit's limitations in pve. Lowering their damage/ab some for the sake of pve wouldn't hurt as bad in that case.

But yea, I think there's a bit of a disconnect here, talking about planar conduit out of the box vs what Clerics can do to them with their amazingly versatile and buff-filled spell list. if I could cast Spell Resistance, Aid, Prayer and Regeneration I probably would have a much different experience with Conduit than I presently do as a wizard.

If you're concerned about dismissal or banishment in PvE, buff their will save. Protection vs. alignment, protection from spells, and owl's will all be enough to avoid failing the DC. That will give that will save a +16 on their base will.

Thanks.

Any tips for Turn Undead?

Signed, someone who actually does apply buffs to their pets and never once mentioned Dismissal or Banishment.

Drowboy wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:12 pm *a bunch of stuff*

So, raising the hit dice and/or adding some baseline SR to make them resistant to Turn Undead in exchange for turning their base stats/ab/damage was such a galling proposal that it deserved this expectoration of bile and sarcasm?

What are you people trying to achieve here, exactly? Balance, or trying to nerf conduit to the ground out of spite? Yes, EDK is weak, and a meme. It should be much stronger. Saying 'but conduit is stronger than EDK unbuffed' is a truism if there ever was one. That's not conduit's fault.

If your feedback is 'casters can suck it, nerf everything good and fun about playing them until we're all barbarians' then I hope that transparent intention is clear to the devs too.

Distant Relation wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:59 pm

Ork wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 1:26 pm

Distant Relation wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:50 pm Inherent SR and/or higher hit die (not necessarily more hp, but hit die) would go a long way in fixing Conduit's limitations in pve. Lowering their damage/ab some for the sake of pve wouldn't hurt as bad in that case.

But yea, I think there's a bit of a disconnect here, talking about planar conduit out of the box vs what Clerics can do to them with their amazingly versatile and buff-filled spell list. if I could cast Spell Resistance, Aid, Prayer and Regeneration I probably would have a much different experience with Conduit than I presently do as a wizard.

If you're concerned about dismissal or banishment in PvE, buff their will save. Protection vs. alignment, protection from spells, and owl's will all be enough to avoid failing the DC. That will give that will save a +16 on their base will.

Thanks.

Any tips for Turn Undead?

Signed, someone who actually does apply buffs to their pets and never once mentioned Dismissal or Banishment.

Actually, yes. Turn undead won't effect your planar summons in PvE unless the monster has specifically been given the planar turning feat. Highly unlikely.

Ork wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:47 pm

Distant Relation wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:59 pm

Ork wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 1:26 pm

If you're concerned about dismissal or banishment in PvE, buff their will save. Protection vs. alignment, protection from spells, and owl's will all be enough to avoid failing the DC. That will give that will save a +16 on their base will.

Thanks.

Any tips for Turn Undead?

Signed, someone who actually does apply buffs to their pets and never once mentioned Dismissal or Banishment.

Actually, yes. Turn undead won't effect your planar summons in PvE unless the monster has specifically been given the planar turning feat. Highly unlikely.

Not as unlikely as you think. And if you used planar conduit with any frequency you'd know that :/

Most humanoid priests have the ability to turn outsiders. Don't know why, don't know how, but from the sahugain of blackfin, to the monk-priests of the viper temple, a distressingly large amount of npc clerics can turn slaad. There is no other defense against this. The turn fear/confusion can't be shielded with mind blank, dispelled, cleared with remove fear, or dealt with using any other spell other than with Spell Resistance.

I know its typical in these forums to both a) speak as if everything took place in a blank 10x10 room in the PGCC under idealized conditions and b) ignore pve because its for losers and real men only do pvp, but it would be nice if we at least tried to have some kind of conversation here instead of this weird tribal 'my way or the high way' that this entire thread has turned out to be.

This isn't reddit. We're a tiny community that wouldn't fill a university auditorium, even including the silent majorioty that never visits these forums. There's no need to to act like we're tribes at war over the last watering hole.

It is possible that you can tune conduit in a way that both curbs its power in pvp without further compromising its utility in pve. I don't need another diatribe full of screenshots out of the PGCC. I believe you when you say conduit is overtuned compared to other players in pvp. I have no reason to distrust your experience in a part of the game you are clearly interested in.

I ask you all to meet halfway, and actually have a conversation rather than a shouting match.