Arcane Marauder Nerf Feedback

[msheeler]

That’s just compared to Pathless, not to say anything for the loss of EB and the loss of faster malestroms.

This statement seems to indicate that paths should be all around better than pathless. I want to be clear that paths should only be different not better than pathless. Likewise one path should not be all around better than another path. Yes they might be better in some aspect, but if that is the case then they should also be worse in some other aspect.

[ViggoEvan]

I think it’s that pathless is better at what marauder is supposed to be good at, ie two-handing, rather than marauder needing to be better in every sense. Since the whole focus of the lathe is two-handing, it probably should be better at it than pathless, imo at least.

[Arienette]

Yes but the question is, does 6 damage and 4/- DR make up for the several things you lose?

And the answer is yes. In PvP, at least. If you lean towards solo PvE I recommend considering pathless and maybe even going imp expertise ( it's not to say marauder can't pve, it's just a bit slower ).

Currently Marauder is still one of the strongest 2h on the server. It beats most standard builds in a 1v1 with a few exceptions as I haven't tested all the fights. It has some counters, mostly summoners, but that has always been the bane of 2h. The big list of nice pathless things keeps being posted but ultimately it boils down to 5 AC ( 4 from weave, 1 from +5 elven chainmail ) and 4 regen when doing PvE content ( I prefer magic over fire because fire is too situational ). Permahaste, premonition, energy shield, elemental shield lets them build more greedy and play more greedily in PvP because ultimately your job is to blow up people and get the hell out. You don't really need much else.

Different story if the AC threshold was around 53-54 with pathless but it's not. There could be a good argument why one should consider it and either options would be fine. Currently marauder is better ( again, if you care about PvP ), but you can absolutely go pathless if you want some AC for solo PvE purposes.

... also 4 dr is strong, it's equal to ignoring someone's epic spec. Or 2/3 of masterly damask damage, or 8 strength points worth of 1h damage, etc.

Will it still be decent in PvP? Yes. I havent made any changes yet because I am still hopeful that some of this will be rolled back.

It reminds of me when monk speed dropped from 150 to 110. It made monk completely un-fun for me. Running around fast was part of its charm, and made it fun to play. I waited a week or so and then rolled. A couple days later they increased the speed back up from 110 to 125. Lesson learned.

And hey, even if all this stuff stays as is, I might keep my character as is. As you say, Marauder is still a decent PvP choice. Decent, not great. I am so confused by people who think the AC loss isnt a big deal.

Those summons are going to hit you way more frequently than before.

Those turtled up melee PMs are now going to be able to hit you 25+ percent of the time while you miss outside of nat 20s.

Your local WM can now turn on expertise, bump his AC up to 59 vs your 49 AB, still have 45+ AB of his own to completely overwhelm your AC AND confirm all those juicy crits!

Paladins and BGs will wreck you to pieces with their 60 AC and 50 AB, of course.

On top of all this, you do less damage than before and therefor kill things slower.

But for me personally, I will probably stick with my Marauder because mine is lvl 30, fully geared, the character has a "niche" in a faction, etc. Can throw bless weapon scrolls at the problem and so forth. Most of all, because I am hesitant to make any changes because I have no reason to believe that whatever I might change to (Abjur Champ, Pathless) wont be nerfed into oblivion in short order.

The true tragedy here has nothing to do with PvP, however. It has to do with PvE. Marauder was FUN in PvE. Very fun! Now its not. Going to zones I used to have fun farming for piety between after a god save in the basin, its now a slog and struggle. I used to be able to open up on most groups of mobs with maelstroms, now its less than half of them. I used to be able to forego much healing if I used Negative, now its "stop to use 2-3 heal kits after every exchange". Not to mention, you better hope you dont draw a slightly bigger group of mobs than average and have your DR spells go down, because now you are chugging heal potions or using -pray. Yesterday I took a writ worker to a dungeon I used to be able to solo, and I became more of a burden than a help because I was taking so much damage. Just sad.

[Arienette]

That’s just compared to Pathless, not to say anything for the loss of EB and the loss of faster malestroms.

This statement seems to indicate that paths should be all around better than pathless. I want to be clear that paths should only be different not better than pathless. Likewise one path should not be all around better than another path. Yes they might be better in some aspect, but if that is the case then they should also be worse in some other aspect.

Basically, what Viggo said. Marauder should be better at 2handing than a pathless spellsword. The combination of nerfs means this is no longer true. If they had their offense hit, it would be a different story, IMO. If they had their defense hit, once again a different story.

But with big hits to both their offense and defense, they are just a bad choice now. Worse than pathless at 2handing IMO.

If I was starting from scratch and wanted to do a 2hand spellsword, I would:

1. Go pathless
2. Choose a combination of feats that allowed me to swap between 2hand and weapon/shield as needed.
3. End up with a better (and more flexible) 2-hander than a Marauder, period.

[msheeler]

Marauder has more damage output than pathless, even when pathless has more str than marauder as was clearly showing in the given build examples.

Pathless is a more well rounded build yes, but to get the same kind of damage output as a marauder they would have to sacrifice so much else that they would then be suffering in those places that normally make them a more well rounded build. In the above build examples you would have to tank another stat to get your STR up ten more points (it already started two points higher) to match the damage output of the marauder. With the given stats (14/16/12/8/16/8), where do you come up with ten more points for STR? DEX and INT likely maybe with a little from CON too, which creates all sorts of other problems for the build.

Given what you would have to sacrifice as a pathless to come up with the same damage as a marauder I think that it actually sits in a rather good place right now.

If you want to reach the highest damage potential then you are going to have to give up on being good at other things.

I see this more as a glass cannon build. Get in there quick, hit really hard, and get the heck out of there. That or do something like toss up improved expertise and wait till your next maelstrom.

[Kalthariam]

So.. am I missing something that Maurader gets that pathless does not? Seems like the only increased damage I can see is six flat damage. From the Weapon Specialization feats.

I can't really say I see six flat damage as a "Path defining" difference in change personally. At least before the changes you could say you had a minimum of 11 Flat damage from the enhancement bonus and the specializations. But.. now you don't have that. Which was a change that I didn't really understand, to get a +5 enhancement bonus you had to be a pure 30 Spellsword.

There's other classes that get higher bonuses and bonuses much earlier.

[Good Character]

The ironic thing is that pathless 2-hand build, when compared to Abjurant Champion, I mentioned has better AB, same AC, slightly better damage (if Bless Weapon can be used; still need to test it) to its 1-handed 19-20/x2 counterparts, but has access to GSF: Transmutation (so gearing isn't as terrible as it seems and benefits Blackstaff's DC bumping it to potentially 39) and GSF: Abjuration. The best part: access to Elemental Maelstrom.

You do miss out on the extra immunities on your shield, though. I have yet to see it matter, however, due to the utilization of Hellball and Greater Ruin. It might matter versus biteback (counter with frost armor, fire on shield) shields, but at that point a person would just breach them.

[Yvesza]

Honestly the loss of EB was probably not a bad thing, marauders had all of the hallmarks of a powerful class with few to no downsides. I'm just not sure why marauders lost everything else, too.

[Svrtr]

Marauder has more damage output than pathless, even when pathless has more str than marauder as was clearly showing in the given build examples.

Pathless is a more well rounded build yes, but to get the same kind of damage output as a marauder they would have to sacrifice so much else that they would then be suffering in those places that normally make them a more well rounded build. In the above build examples you would have to tank another stat to get your STR up ten more points (it already started two points higher) to match the damage output of the marauder. With the given stats (14/16/12/8/16/8), where do you come up with ten more points for STR? DEX and INT likely maybe with a little from CON too, which creates all sorts of other problems for the build.

Given what you would have to sacrifice as a pathless to come up with the same damage as a marauder I think that it actually sits in a rather good place right now.

If you want to reach the highest damage potential then you are going to have to give up on being good at other things.

I see this more as a glass cannon build. Get in there quick, hit really hard, and get the heck out of there. That or do something like toss up improved expertise and wait till your next maelstrom.

They have more damage, yes, but they trade gearing flexibility and are short about 4-6 AC by comparison compared to pathless, and even worse they do not get the elemental DI/DR from imbue armor, they don' get the bonus effects such as regen or AC, they have the same maelstrom cooldown now too.

They lost a ton of sustain, and I would gladly trade 6 damage for about an equal amount of AC, along with biteback, more flexible gearing potential with imbue armor, elemental DI/DR (especially awesome when in like RDI), and the secondary effects such as the regen from negative imbue.

[Tarkus the dog]

Yes but the question is, does 6 damage and 4/- DR make up for the several things you lose?

And the answer is yes. In PvP, at least. If you lean towards solo PvE I recommend considering pathless and maybe even going imp expertise ( it's not to say marauder can't pve, it's just a bit slower ).

Currently Marauder is still one of the strongest 2h on the server. It beats most standard builds in a 1v1 with a few exceptions as I haven't tested all the fights. It has some counters, mostly summoners, but that has always been the bane of 2h. The big list of nice pathless things keeps being posted but ultimately it boils down to 5 AC ( 4 from weave, 1 from +5 elven chainmail ) and 4 regen when doing PvE content ( I prefer magic over fire because fire is too situational ). Permahaste, premonition, energy shield, elemental shield lets them build more greedy and play more greedily in PvP because ultimately your job is to blow up people and get the hell out. You don't really need much else.

Different story if the AC threshold was around 53-54 with pathless but it's not. There could be a good argument why one should consider it and either options would be fine. Currently marauder is better ( again, if you care about PvP ), but you can absolutely go pathless if you want some AC for solo PvE purposes.

... also 4 dr is strong, it's equal to ignoring someone's epic spec. Or 2/3 of masterly damask damage, or 8 strength points worth of 1h damage, etc.

Will it still be decent in PvP? Yes. I havent made any changes yet because I am still hopeful that some of this will be rolled back.

It reminds of me when monk speed dropped from 150 to 110. It made monk completely un-fun for me. Running around fast was part of its charm, and made it fun to play. I waited a week or so and then rolled. A couple days later they increased the speed back up from 110 to 125. Lesson learned.

And hey, even if all this stuff stays as is, I might keep my character as is. As you say, Marauder is still a decent PvP choice. Decent, not great. I am so confused by people who think the AC loss isnt a big deal.

Those summons are going to hit you way more frequently than before.

Those turtled up melee PMs are now going to be able to hit you 25+ percent of the time while you miss outside of nat 20s.

Your local WM can now turn on expertise, bump his AC up to 59 vs your 49 AB, still have 45+ AB of his own to completely overwhelm your AC AND confirm all those juicy crits!

Paladins and BGs will wreck you to pieces with their 60 AC and 50 AB, of course.

On top of all this, you do less damage than before and therefor kill things slower.

But for me personally, I will probably stick with my Marauder because mine is lvl 30, fully geared, the character has a "niche" in a faction, etc. Can throw bless weapon scrolls at the problem and so forth. Most of all, because I am hesitant to make any changes because I have no reason to believe that whatever I might change to (Abjur Champ, Pathless) wont be nerfed into oblivion in short order.

The true tragedy here has nothing to do with PvP, however. It has to do with PvE. Marauder was FUN in PvE. Very fun! Now its not. Going to zones I used to have fun farming for piety between after a god save in the basin, its now a slog and struggle. I used to be able to open up on most groups of mobs with maelstroms, now its less than half of them. I used to be able to forego much healing if I used Negative, now its "stop to use 2-3 heal kits after every exchange". Not to mention, you better hope you dont draw a slightly bigger group of mobs than average and have your DR spells go down, because now you are chugging heal potions or using -pray. Yesterday I took a writ worker to a dungeon I used to be able to solo, and I became more of a burden than a help because I was taking so much damage. Just sad.

Marauder is still an A class, if not S class build in my books in terms of PvP. In terms of PvE, but here's the thing -- It actually can PvE because of it's spells. I'll absolutely agree it was way more fun to PvE before but coming from a history of mundane builds Marauder is legit the most fun I've had in a very long time simply because I can literally walk down almost any dungeon and solo it. See if the builds you mentioned can say the same without needing to burn through gold to get the same going.

Also, look, I can't state this enough -- Marauder deals a ton of damage. It will run down 25/5, it will run down blackguards ( unless there's a summon involved, again, it's biggest counter ), it will run down a paladin. And it will absolutely run down a palemaster, it doesn't care what's in it's way. It's universal Snuggybear whooping machine that does not discriminate ( except against the summoners ) . I'm in the similar boat as you and I still love my character and playing him is as fun as before, just not as free as before if you get my meaning. Before I could whip out a shield and toggle imp expertise and run away from the enemies at 63 ac whenever I'm in deep trouble, but now I can't. When going in you have to think of the consequences. And I think that was the main intention of this -- that you have to play smart and not just always have a reset on your hands. They were way too strong in PvP, easily the strongest PvP class. As for PvE -- Again, this class can PvE, many others can't so easily. And PvE is the sole goal -- Pathless, Imp expertise and go for it. Or even Marauder + Imp expertise, that's still 52 ish ac, more than enough for most dungeons. So sure, my character took a beating but who cares. The point is not to have a broken class running around, and hell, I'd argue they are still way too overturned in terms of PvP.

[AstralUniverse]

Have you tested against 30 hexblade or 24/3/3 ac hexblade? Because I would argue the main tempo swing that makes Marauder run down all these builds would be the 30 cl Haste. I wonder if you still run down these builds if they also have 30 CL haste because they are caster hexblade or have Haste(30) on a sequencer.

[Arienette]

And the answer is yes. In PvP, at least. If you lean towards solo PvE I recommend considering pathless and maybe even going imp expertise ( it's not to say marauder can't pve, it's just a bit slower ).

Currently Marauder is still one of the strongest 2h on the server. It beats most standard builds in a 1v1 with a few exceptions as I haven't tested all the fights. It has some counters, mostly summoners, but that has always been the bane of 2h. The big list of nice pathless things keeps being posted but ultimately it boils down to 5 AC ( 4 from weave, 1 from +5 elven chainmail ) and 4 regen when doing PvE content ( I prefer magic over fire because fire is too situational ). Permahaste, premonition, energy shield, elemental shield lets them build more greedy and play more greedily in PvP because ultimately your job is to blow up people and get the hell out. You don't really need much else.

Different story if the AC threshold was around 53-54 with pathless but it's not. There could be a good argument why one should consider it and either options would be fine. Currently marauder is better ( again, if you care about PvP ), but you can absolutely go pathless if you want some AC for solo PvE purposes.

... also 4 dr is strong, it's equal to ignoring someone's epic spec. Or 2/3 of masterly damask damage, or 8 strength points worth of 1h damage, etc.

Will it still be decent in PvP? Yes. I havent made any changes yet because I am still hopeful that some of this will be rolled back.

It reminds of me when monk speed dropped from 150 to 110. It made monk completely un-fun for me. Running around fast was part of its charm, and made it fun to play. I waited a week or so and then rolled. A couple days later they increased the speed back up from 110 to 125. Lesson learned.

And hey, even if all this stuff stays as is, I might keep my character as is. As you say, Marauder is still a decent PvP choice. Decent, not great. I am so confused by people who think the AC loss isnt a big deal.

Those summons are going to hit you way more frequently than before.

Those turtled up melee PMs are now going to be able to hit you 25+ percent of the time while you miss outside of nat 20s.

Your local WM can now turn on expertise, bump his AC up to 59 vs your 49 AB, still have 45+ AB of his own to completely overwhelm your AC AND confirm all those juicy crits!

Paladins and BGs will wreck you to pieces with their 60 AC and 50 AB, of course.

On top of all this, you do less damage than before and therefor kill things slower.

But for me personally, I will probably stick with my Marauder because mine is lvl 30, fully geared, the character has a "niche" in a faction, etc. Can throw bless weapon scrolls at the problem and so forth. Most of all, because I am hesitant to make any changes because I have no reason to believe that whatever I might change to (Abjur Champ, Pathless) wont be nerfed into oblivion in short order.

The true tragedy here has nothing to do with PvP, however. It has to do with PvE. Marauder was FUN in PvE. Very fun! Now its not. Going to zones I used to have fun farming for piety between after a god save in the basin, its now a slog and struggle. I used to be able to open up on most groups of mobs with maelstroms, now its less than half of them. I used to be able to forego much healing if I used Negative, now its "stop to use 2-3 heal kits after every exchange". Not to mention, you better hope you dont draw a slightly bigger group of mobs than average and have your DR spells go down, because now you are chugging heal potions or using -pray. Yesterday I took a writ worker to a dungeon I used to be able to solo, and I became more of a burden than a help because I was taking so much damage. Just sad.

Marauder is still an A class, if not S class build in my books in terms of PvP. In terms of PvE, but here's the thing -- It actually can PvE because of it's spells. I'll absolutely agree it was way more fun to PvE before but coming from a history of mundane builds Marauder is legit the most fun I've had in a very long time simply because I can literally walk down almost any dungeon and solo it. See if the builds you mentioned can say the same without needing to burn through gold to get the same going.

Also, look, I can't state this enough -- Marauder deals a ton of damage. It will run down 25/5, it will run down blackguards ( unless there's a summon involved, again, it's biggest counter ), it will run down a paladin. And it will absolutely run down a palemaster, it doesn't care what's in it's way. It's universal Snuggybear whooping machine that does not discriminate ( except against the summoners ) . I'm in the similar boat as you and I still love my character and playing him is as fun as before, just not as free as before if you get my meaning. Before I could whip out a shield and toggle imp expertise and run away from the enemies at 63 ac whenever I'm in deep trouble, but now I can't. When going in you have to think of the consequences. And I think that was the main intention of this -- that you have to play smart and not just always have a reset on your hands. They were way too strong in PvP, easily the strongest PvP class. As for PvE -- Again, this class can PvE, many others can't so easily. And PvE is the sole goal -- Pathless, Imp expertise and go for it. Or even Marauder + Imp expertise, that's still 52 ish ac, more than enough for most dungeons. So sure, my character took a beating but who cares. The point is not to have a broken class running around, and hell, I'd argue they are still way too overturned in terms of PvP.

I want what you say to be true, I just do not believe it. I’m not sure how you can be so confident. Have you had this many varied PvP encounters with your marauder in the week since the nerfs?

I will try to arrange some PGCC testing against said WMs and such and hope to be pleasently surprised.

To me, the numbers speak for themselves. Using very general numbers:

1. New Marauder has 50 AB “all in” and 45 AC.
2. 25/5 Weapon Master has 50 “walking around” AB, which he can push up to 53 or so for a couple minutes. 50 walking around AC, 54 with haste.
3. WM can grab that 53 AB, click regular expertise and wade in with 48 AB and 59 AC (for 1 min).
4. WM is landing 3+ hits per round, With plenty of room to confirm multiple crits.
5. Marauder is doing good damage when it lands a hit but it’s missing more often than not.

In this case, Marauder is melting fast. It’s not going to be the one “running down” anyone.

Again, using round numbers. When a build goes from 50 AC to 45, those various top tier 50 AB sword and board folks can freely click on regular expertise and create a situation where they have such a numerical advantage that the fight becomes untenable. This is even more true with Pal/BG. Those guys have have 1 minute of 60 AC which they can push to 65 with a simple click while still having 45 AB. It mystifies me how you can say a Marauder will “run people down” in said situation. You would be lucky to land 1 hit per round, while taking several hits per round. Time to run.

[Arienette]

Will it still be decent in PvP? Yes. I havent made any changes yet because I am still hopeful that some of this will be rolled back.

It reminds of me when monk speed dropped from 150 to 110. It made monk completely un-fun for me. Running around fast was part of its charm, and made it fun to play. I waited a week or so and then rolled. A couple days later they increased the speed back up from 110 to 125. Lesson learned.

And hey, even if all this stuff stays as is, I might keep my character as is. As you say, Marauder is still a decent PvP choice. Decent, not great. I am so confused by people who think the AC loss isnt a big deal.

Those summons are going to hit you way more frequently than before.

Those turtled up melee PMs are now going to be able to hit you 25+ percent of the time while you miss outside of nat 20s.

Your local WM can now turn on expertise, bump his AC up to 59 vs your 49 AB, still have 45+ AB of his own to completely overwhelm your AC AND confirm all those juicy crits!

Paladins and BGs will wreck you to pieces with their 60 AC and 50 AB, of course.

On top of all this, you do less damage than before and therefor kill things slower.

But for me personally, I will probably stick with my Marauder because mine is lvl 30, fully geared, the character has a "niche" in a faction, etc. Can throw bless weapon scrolls at the problem and so forth. Most of all, because I am hesitant to make any changes because I have no reason to believe that whatever I might change to (Abjur Champ, Pathless) wont be nerfed into oblivion in short order.

The true tragedy here has nothing to do with PvP, however. It has to do with PvE. Marauder was FUN in PvE. Very fun! Now its not. Going to zones I used to have fun farming for piety between after a god save in the basin, its now a slog and struggle. I used to be able to open up on most groups of mobs with maelstroms, now its less than half of them. I used to be able to forego much healing if I used Negative, now its "stop to use 2-3 heal kits after every exchange". Not to mention, you better hope you dont draw a slightly bigger group of mobs than average and have your DR spells go down, because now you are chugging heal potions or using -pray. Yesterday I took a writ worker to a dungeon I used to be able to solo, and I became more of a burden than a help because I was taking so much damage. Just sad.

Marauder is still an A class, if not S class build in my books in terms of PvP. In terms of PvE, but here's the thing -- It actually can PvE because of it's spells. I'll absolutely agree it was way more fun to PvE before but coming from a history of mundane builds Marauder is legit the most fun I've had in a very long time simply because I can literally walk down almost any dungeon and solo it. See if the builds you mentioned can say the same without needing to burn through gold to get the same going.

Also, look, I can't state this enough -- Marauder deals a ton of damage. It will run down 25/5, it will run down blackguards ( unless there's a summon involved, again, it's biggest counter ), it will run down a paladin. And it will absolutely run down a palemaster, it doesn't care what's in it's way. It's universal Snuggybear whooping machine that does not discriminate ( except against the summoners ) . I'm in the similar boat as you and I still love my character and playing him is as fun as before, just not as free as before if you get my meaning. Before I could whip out a shield and toggle imp expertise and run away from the enemies at 63 ac whenever I'm in deep trouble, but now I can't. When going in you have to think of the consequences. And I think that was the main intention of this -- that you have to play smart and not just always have a reset on your hands. They were way too strong in PvP, easily the strongest PvP class. As for PvE -- Again, this class can PvE, many others can't so easily. And PvE is the sole goal -- Pathless, Imp expertise and go for it. Or even Marauder + Imp expertise, that's still 52 ish ac, more than enough for most dungeons. So sure, my character took a beating but who cares. The point is not to have a broken class running around, and hell, I'd argue they are still way too overturned in terms of PvP.

I want what you say to be true, I just do not believe it. I’m not sure how you can be so confident. Have you had this many varied PvP encounters with your marauder in the week since the nerfs?

I will try to arrange some PGCC testing against said WMs and such and hope to be pleasently surprised.

To me, the numbers speak for themselves. Using very general numbers:

1. New Marauder has 50 AB “all in” and 45 AC.
2. 25/5 Weapon Master has 50 “walking around” AB, which he can push up to 53 or so for a couple minutes. 50 walking around AC, 54 with haste.
3. WM can grab that 53 AB, click regular expertise and wade in with 48 AB and 59 AC (for 1 min).
4. WM is landing 3+ hits per round, With plenty of room to confirm multiple crits.
5. Marauder is doing good damage when it lands a hit but it’s missing more often than not.

In this case, Marauder is melting fast. It’s not going to be the one “running down” anyone.

Again, using round numbers. When a build goes from 50 AC to 45, those various top tier 50 AB sword and board folks can freely click on regular expertise and create a situation where they have such a numerical advantage that the fight becomes untenable. This is even more true with Pal/BG. Those guys have have 1 minute of 60 AC which they can push to 65 with a simple click while still having 45 AB. It mystifies me how you can say a Marauder will “run people down” in said situation. You would be lucky to land 1 hit per round, while taking multiple hits hits per round. Time to run.

[Kalthariam]

I can't comment on the PvP aspect of the class. I don't PvP.

But as someone whom exclusively only enjoys fighting PvE environments, I can say my enjoyment of Marauder has basically become zilch, to the point I'm now actively trying to research how to change my character out of being a marauder and salvaging the character because they have a greater I -just- got and -just- put on them. Character was level thirty for like a week and a half before this nerf hit. If I had known extensive nerfs were going to be hitting, I probably would have made the character into a barbarian instead, but it's way too late to refund it now.

I just really wish large scale changes like this was more forewarned. I do not PvP, I don't get into the PvP crowds and see what's OP what's not. I ask close friends that play the servers for suggestions on things I can enjoy, they give me builds because I'm not good with building my own characters and I just play the game that way.

I know some people only play this server to PvP, and only see things through a PvP lense, but do keep in mind not everyone does.

[AstralUniverse]

I know some people only play this server to PvP, and only see things through a PvP lense, but do keep in mind not everyone does.

It's irrelevant.

Balance is done around pvp. Balance is done around high skill players with an urge to win. Not around people who play casual for fun because they wont abuse overpowered things as much.

This isnt about seeing the game through a lense of pvp or pve. It's about balancing things around where they are most abusive to the game, if that makes sense.

Frankly, and I really dont meant to be rude, but if you dont pvp at all and cant comment on the pvp aspect of a class that is designed mostly for pvp, that's on you.

[Good Character]

I want what you say to be true, I just do not believe it. I’m not sure how you can be so confident. Have you had this many varied PvP encounters with your marauder in the week since the nerfs?

I will try to arrange some PGCC testing against said WMs and such and hope to be pleasently surprised.

To me, the numbers speak for themselves. Using very general numbers:

1. New Marauder has 50 AB “all in” and 45 AC.
2. 25/5 Weapon Master has 50 “walking around” AB, which he can push up to 53 or so for a couple minutes. 50 walking around AC, 54 with haste.
3. WM can grab that 53 AB, click regular expertise and wade in with 48 AB and 59 AC (for 1 min).
4. WM is landing 3+ hits per round, With plenty of room to confirm multiple crits.
5. Marauder is doing good damage when it lands a hit but it’s missing more often than not.

In this case, Marauder is melting fast. It’s not going to be the one “running down” anyone.

Again, using round numbers. When a build goes from 50 AC to 45, those various top tier 50 AB sword and board folks can freely click on regular expertise and create a situation where they have such a numerical advantage that the fight becomes untenable. This is even more true with Pal/BG. Those guys have have 1 minute of 60 AC which they can push to 65 with a simple click while still having 45 AB. It mystifies me how you can say a Marauder will “run people down” in said situation. You would be lucky to land 1 hit per round, while taking multiple hits hits per round. Time to run.

With Tenser's, Marauders should still hit 55. While the elemental strike bonuses are disabled, you can still use elemental strike for the instant action attack.

[Kalthariam]

I know some people only play this server to PvP, and only see things through a PvP lense, but do keep in mind not everyone does.

It's irrelevant.

Balance is done around pvp. Balance is done around high skill players with an urge to win. Not around people who play casual for fun because they wont abuse overpowered things as much.

This isnt about seeing the game through a lense of pvp or pve. It's about balancing things around where they are most abusive to the game, if that makes sense.

Frankly, and I really dont meant to be rude, but if you dont pvp at all and cant comment on the pvp aspect of a class that is designed mostly for pvp, that's on you.

I'm sorry, I just do not agree.

I do not see the Arcane Maurader at all as "Designed" for PvP.

It's a Spellsword, a wizard warrior, whom simply specializes in two-handed weapon combat, instead of sword and board or some other style.

It has some fun cookies for fighting off large waves of enemies with Maelstorm, and support spells to keep itself safe in a large variety of PvE style encounters.

It's basically leaning a little more into Wizard / Barbarian instead of Wizard / Fighter.

None of this class remotely screams "This was designed for PvP, and PvP should be the only thing thought of in mind for this"

The idea you'd only balance for PvP when it comes to these classes is such a narrowminded scope. PvP is not the end all be all.

[Xerah]

No class has ever been "designed for PVP"

There are some decisions made that need to be considered for PVP, yes, but classes aren't designed around this.

When it comes to balance, it's always better to consider the top end first. The people that can exploit the unbalance will be most affected, which in the end leads to a better experience for the casual player who is not considering these outlier ideas. After that, one needs to consider how these changes will affect the casual player as a "gut check". Sometimes the changes are still necessary even if they harm the casual playing experience.

The fact that this class could easily solo content (where so many others cannot) means that adjustments were necessary; I'm just really not sure these were the right ones.

[mourisson1]

While I agree that the nerf was a bit too much, I am still suprised seeing people compare SS with WM based only on AB and AC numbers, completely forgetting the fact that one of them still have very rich spellbook with 30 CL.

[Arienette]

While I agree that the nerf was a bit too much, I am still suprised seeing people compare SS with WM based only on AB and AC numbers, completely forgetting the fact that one of them still have very rich spellbook with 30 CL.

I was comparing numbers for a particular purpose. Some in this thread, and in Discord discussions on the topic, have said things along the lines of "the AC loss isnt a big deal, because Marauder was never an AC class to begin with".

And if the AC went from 40 to 36, or from 61 to 57, I would tend to agree that the loss of 4 AC is not the mnost seriously impactful of this set of nerfs for the class PvP ability.

But the change is from ~48 to ~44. A change of 4 AC, in that particular range of AC, has a big impact on PvP performance. The top tier of most common melee builds (MWs, BG, Paladins, etc) achieve at least 50 AB and 54-61 AC outside of expertise. In the context of one of these builds vs a Marauder, with a drop of 4 AC from the Marauder, that opponent in PvP can now click on regular expertise and achieve the same (high) hit frequency while also pushing their AC up to the point where it becomes significantly more difficult for the Marauder to land hits and confirm crits. Significantly more difficult, meaning in my mind pushes the balance to a "tipping point". IMO this is a really significant change that really drops the Marauder from "very good" in PvP to "OK+"

Obviously my rating there is subjective. But overall my purpose in pointing to these numbers is to say that the loss of 4 AC is a more significant hit than some are giving it credit for. The offensive nerfs hurt a lot too, but the AC drop isnt negligible on performance.

[AstralUniverse]

I'm sorry, I just do not agree.

I do not see the Arcane Maurader at all as "Designed" for PvP.

Yeah.. Forgive my poor choice of phrasing. I basically meant this...

When it comes to balance, it's always better to consider the top end first. The people that can exploit the unbalance will be most affected, which in the end leads to a better experience for the casual player who is not considering these outlier ideas. After that, one needs to consider how these changes will affect the casual player as a "gut check". Sometimes the changes are still necessary even if they harm the casual playing experience.

Also, I agree the nerfs werent necessarily the right nerfs. But I can see the idea behind it. The path was doing too much damage but hypothetically when balanced, it's supposed to do a lot of damage while being slightly tanky from reductions/vamp. In my opinion it boils down to whether or not a more appropriate nerf would be to remove the damage resistance to physical and leave +5 damage from enchantment bonus.

[Archnon]

Was marauder a powerful build, pre-nerf ... sure. It was up there for PVP, probably still not as good as a 25-5 fighter or 20 BG + or even deep COT builds, but it sat right alongside barbarian and in some ways was a significant improvement.

Is that why there were so many ... no. If you wanted a pvp build, you went with one of those other builds, or just a good old well played wizard or cleric. It was so popular because it was fun, because PVE was fun. You dealt crazy damage but also had to be careful because until you hit level 26, your regen was not good. Frankly, level 22-26 soloing was really really tough, not going to lie. At the same time, it had a fun RP component, edging on a wild magic theme.

Did it need a nerf ... maybe, though it isn't even the strongest Spellsword path. Honestly, bladesinger is crazy good and just limited in numbers because who wants to play an elf! Abjurant is almost as good and on par if not better than Marauder. and again, Marauder is still outperformed by lots of builds in 1v1 pvp (like anything with great saves!).

Did it need this nerf .... absolutely not! The last time we saw a heavy handed nerf like this it was monkmagedon, and that was only because they had made monks gods just an update before. There was no careful selection. No eliminate 1 thing and see how the balance changes. It plain got gutted, along with most of the fun PVE components of the play style. You could still run a level 30 marauder and win a few battles but leveling up a marauder now is impossible, like seriously impossible. Unless someone is guarding you, you are a burden on any group you are in, let alone trying to solo (and all classes can be built to solo things, so don't tell me it got nerfed because it could solo)

What should we do:
* Give the weave AC back but tie it to hard Constitution score, not dex. It is never fair to have a class be 4 stat. That is nuts.
Then either:
1.) Give back the level 26 passive bonuses or
2.) Give back the Enhancement bonus and reduced cooldown

This would return it to a playable state while still putting some new limits on it, then take some feedback on it again once people have played it.

[Svrtr]

Was marauder a powerful build, pre-nerf ... sure. It was up there for PVP, probably still not as good as a 25-5 fighter or 20 BG + or even deep COT builds, but it sat right alongside barbarian and in some ways was a significant improvement.

Is that why there were so many ... no. If you wanted a pvp build, you went with one of those other builds, or just a good old well played wizard or cleric. It was so popular because it was fun, because PVE was fun. You dealt crazy damage but also had to be careful because until you hit level 26, your regen was not good. Frankly, level 22-26 soloing was really really tough, not going to lie. At the same time, it had a fun RP component, edging on a wild magic theme.

Did it need a nerf ... maybe, though it isn't even the strongest Spellsword path. Honestly, bladesinger is crazy good and just limited in numbers because who wants to play an elf! Abjurant is almost as good and on par if not better than Marauder. and again, Marauder is still outperformed by lots of builds in 1v1 pvp (like anything with great saves!).

Did it need this nerf .... absolutely not! The last time we saw a heavy handed nerf like this it was monkmagedon, and that was only because they had made monks gods just an update before. There was no careful selection. No eliminate 1 thing and see how the balance changes. It plain got gutted, along with most of the fun PVE components of the play style. You could still run a level 30 marauder and win a few battles but leveling up a marauder now is impossible, like seriously impossible. Unless someone is guarding you, you are a burden on any group you are in, let alone trying to solo (and all classes can be built to solo things, so don't tell me it got nerfed because it could solo)

What should we do:
* Give the weave AC back but tie it to hard Constitution score, not dex. It is never fair to have a class be 4 stat. That is nuts.
Then either:
1.) Give back the level 26 passive bonuses or
2.) Give back the Enhancement bonus and reduced cooldown

This would return it to a playable state while still putting some new limits on it, then take some feedback on it again once people have played it.

I will say that while I agree with giving back the 26 passive bonus, givnig armor imbue, and/or returning the weave AC, many would say and agree bladesinger is the weakest of the paths pre-nerf, and so too that marauder was the strongest because of its ability to sustain with neg imbue maelstrom and its sheer kill pressure. Abjurant is still very good but marauder had many things going for it.


But the nerf was still rather heavy handed in my mind for reasons I listed here before

[Good Character]

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Back on-topic: What exactly was the counterplay to the pre-nerf Marauder? Melees would either die to repeatedly high AB attacks and damage, or die on biteback shields. Casters were casters if caught. I believe only summons were the true bane of Marauders, and undead summons at that.

I personally think that the elemental maelstrom nerf for them was fitting; their most glaring weakness could be countered by a low CD on a negative imbue maelstrom. However, I have no idea what to give back because anything enhances its concerning kill pressure while its sustain still exists.

[ViggoEvan]

Back on-topic: What exactly was the counterplay to the pre-nerf Marauder? Melees would either die to repeatedly high AB attacks and damage, or die on biteback shields. Casters were casters if caught. I believe only summons were the true bane of Marauders, and undead summons at that.

I personally think that the elemental maelstrom nerf for them was fitting; their most glaring weakness could be countered by a low CD on a negative imbue maelstrom. However, I have no idea what to give back because anything enhances its concerning kill pressure while its sustain still exists.

I don’t thin the social study comments add much to the debate, whether they are true or not. But as to the rest of your statement, in my experience, low ac struggled against marauder for sure, but anything with a high ac could pretty easily counter ss as well. Right now? One gate summon and it’s see you later don’t forget to write. The pvp I’ve done since the nerf has been…. Rough, mostly due to being deleted by one summon in maybe two or three rounds.