Is Arelith "too big"?

[Ebonstar]

I like all the changes, and this should maybe be tabled until after the summer is over , why because more people game online in the fall and winter, they are not traveling with family or doing other out of the house things.

perhaps if anything the main starting area shouldnt be at the tip of the isle but near the middle. right now the feeling you get is the south is safe to have shelter and learn your trade whatever it may be.

Then a you grow you slowly expand out across the isle but always northward. Maybe just shifting Cordor to the middle of the coast so you can go both directions, just a thought.

[Durvayas]

So after Bendir, I think I'd axe Wharftown. That would make Cordor, Brog, and Myon your main choices for affiliation(as they should be)

I disagree with everything said here. Brog is a racial settlement focused primarily on any surface race that is too short to ride a rollercoaster.

Myon is an elf racial settlement.

Which leaves cordor, the only settlement on the server that is completely unassailable without messing with the voting system, because it is not only the most mechanically defended settlement(epic guards), but also the newb starting area.

Wharftown is absolutely nescessary, because of the sheer number of human PCs on the server. If all of them are tied to a single settlement, you end up with the power dynamic of the USA versus every central american nation. One settlement able to act with impunity against any other settlement.

Cordor needs at least one human settlement to serve as a foil, otherwise it becomes bloated artificially. Guldhorand has been doing well as this for team evil recently, and in the past it used wharftown forever for this purpose.

It is nothing if not nescessarry to have 2-3 human settlements to spread out the population for political balance reasons, otherwise the single main human city will dominate all the other racial settlements by dint of being bigger, period. I think Cordor could use a small cataclysm to downsize the city slightly to account for its decline in population, and maybe remove some of those guards so it is more vulnerable to the more nefarious elements of the server. There is a PC guard anyways.

[MowerQueen]

EDIT: Actually just listen to Yma because he said exactly how I'm thinking but better.

I also really appreciate the updates I've been seeing, I think they're awesome.

Frankly, as much as I love Burrowhome, it is the most inclined to get the axe because halflings (especially this far from Luiren) don't really fort up on their own. They would be far more likely to meld into all the other societies going on. That is one reason I actually really like the Brog/Burrowhome connection of 'It's all about the Earthkin!' thing. As it makes more sense than a primarily halfling NPC populated fort.

As someone who saw the inspiring dedication and RP that went into the formation of the Bendir halfling culture, which represents a unique blending of various halfling cultures around Toril, this hurts to see. I know it's not what it once was, but when it was thriving it was an awesome hub for not just halflings, but also a lot of other races and factions who didn't fit in so well with the Dirty, Political City (aka Cordor) but who were also not EBIL. It is the way it is (including terminology like "halfling" being considered a negative term in favor of "hin") because people worked hard to establish it that way, not because a sourcebook says that's the way it should be.

To give another example, the "Earthkin" thing, which you say makes more sense than a halfling settlement ala mini-Luiren, isn't even a thing in forgotten realms lore. They are all short, but the dwarven/halfling races have nothing to do with one another canonically. That mindset was built "brick-by-brick" (metaphorically) by the faction participants at the time.

But, my personal adoration of the Fort doesn't justify its existence. It's also an important waypoint in the middle of the long path to ANYWHERE. It's the center of the island, where multiple paths merge. There WOULD and SHOULD be some kind of settlement or outpost or inn there, be it halfer-oriented or otherwise.

Jussayin'. But I do think your post was very reasonable and humble, just so you know.

A few (not all) suggestions I'm seeing on this thread seem to point towards making permanent changes based on the trends of "what's most popular right now" rather than what potential or history there is, and that just doesn't seem to sit well with me. Some of them even seem like they are addressing "problems" or "oh this would be cool" ideas that could easily be addressed through creation and RP instead.

I'm not afraid of change, but I guess I don't see the validity of some of the reasons. Why would you wipe a town off the map because it hasn't seen much action in "the last 2 weeks" or even the past several months? Wouldn't it be better to look strategically at it from a wide lense of what would generate most benefit in the server?

But, you know, YMMV.

[Irongron]

Hey, don't worry everyone, this is just a discussion. There are no plans for any kind of surface cataclysm, and I wouldn't be supportive of that idea.

More settlements will surely one day fall though, but that could just as well be through player-driven role-play rather than something I or Mithreas decide.

By the same token new settlements could one day spring up. As always, the best way to change anything in game is in game, and not via forum discussions (fun though they are).

But for the sake of discussion, if I was to consider removing settlements deom the system right now it would probably be Burrowhome or Myon. In both cases I wouldn't remove the areas, but shrink them, and make them akin to Heartwood. A place for those people to role-play, but not settlements in the whole citizenship/resource thing, leaving those PCs free to populate some of the others.

All that being said, I'm not going to delete either for the foreseeable future (and not this year), there's just far too much elsewhere to complete.

[zinlor]

I'd like to see Myon crash ab burn on top of Burrowhome. Would create some intresting ruins.

[Yma23]

I'd like to see Myon crash ab burn on top of Burrowhome. Would create some intresting ruins.

This reminds me of an in game plan a character of mine had, which would both 'fix' benwick and open up Myon to everyone!

Step 1: Take controle of the Mythal
Step 2: Don't make Myon crash, rather, you drive it, navogate it like a flying saucer until it is on top of Benwick
Step 3: Land Myon on top of Benwick.
Step 4: Profit!

It is a plan with no flaws!

[rat0a]

I will say

Reduce Guldy to his old self or maybe even smaller but keep the same shop/housing count

The place fells too crowded building wise for a small logging town IMHO

and please take that outpost away at the howling past, it make no sense to me and nobody use it anyway.

That Greyhammer village shouldbe gone as well <-----that the name right?

Is too close to Fort Bendir

[Kuma]

I will say

Reduce Guldy to his old self or maybe even smaller but keep the same shop/housing count

The place fells too crowded building wise for a small logging town IMHO

and please take that outpost away at the howling past, it make no sense to me and nobody use it anyway.

That Greyhammer village shouldbe gone as well <-----that the name right?

Is too close to Fort Bendir

I will address your points in order.

1: Guldorand's development is at a natural pace. It's expanded and is no longer "tiny logging camp", and is now an actual town with the only real example of industry on Arelith - it has a lumbermill, massive bandsaws, a well-maintained dock, its own merchant fleet and a a trade League. Considering it's been a tiny logging camp for a hundred years and in that time been taken over by many with dreams of grandeur, it's maybe overdue what it thankfully got!

2: Myon is quiet this week, let's delete it. The Tower hasn't had anyone play there last month, maybe we should delete it. Not every asset on the server can or will be utilised to its fullest at exactly the same time. I'm sure in time it'll get used. Besides, it's not like a two tile area is killing server resources.

3: Greyhammer village's proximity to Bendir is intentional, given that Greyhammer's quarters and shops are mechanically attached to Bendir's settlement system. Think of Greyhammer as a Bendir colony (and then kill all halflings you see for colonialist expansion, upsetting the balance of the Great Powers, ICly). It was also a player-made development, given that the site was originally Merogo's Vinyard but had closed, which was given the protection of Bendir.

-

Arelith is actually too small. By comparison to a multitude of other servers, Arelith is TINY, and squeezes its playerbase into much smaller settlements. I think part of the problem is that we've glorified mechanical settlement buggery to the point that anything outside of settlement support or influence is regarded as lesser, unofficial, or unsupported. I'm part of this myself, most factions I partake in either reside in towns or will take over a town to grant themselves legitimacy, recognition, and to make a statement. Sencliff taking Guldorand, for example, had almost nothing to do with owning a town and everything to do with pissing off Benwick.

Instead of deleting settlements or guildhouses or vast tracts of land, recognise that Arelith is tiny in terms of exploration. Don't just add vast empty forests or valleys. The new pass of despair is actually a pain in the Snuggybear, as there's no shortcuts through the little copses any more. That's a sensation of artificial bloating (sorry irongron but it's how i feel). Other servers have, say, horses, and have LOTS OF SPACE for them to be useful in. On Arelith, if you get a horse, not only do you need to walk all the way to a mid-level area to find one, but you're very, very restricted in terms of how useful it is. Given that horse-lag has been fixed, I'd love to see Arelith expand to encourage horses becoming non-gifted.

Of course, I would only want more space to be added if it was similarly easy to traverse. Making an adventure out of your travel is all well and good if you're into that but not everyone is. People have places to be, thank god for appraise-reduced lenses.

I'm rambling here. tl;dr; beware of artificial bloat, include content (even if it's just ruins, or history, or interesting landmarks, or w/e) in any extra 'space' that is created, and only delete if it's actually going to improve the server, not just as like. A punishment for inactivity.

[P Three]

Good ideas here

I'd ask you to have my babies, but...damn physiology.


In short, all that. I'd love more. More places to explore. And in its turn, every settlement waxes and wanes. I don't think getting rid of ANY of them is wise.

[CragOneEye]

I'm rambling here. tl;dr; beware of artificial bloat, include content (even if it's just ruins, or history, or interesting landmarks, or w/e) in any extra 'space' that is created, and only delete if it's actually going to improve the server, not just as like. A punishment for inactivity.

My understanding both stoneholds and benwick were destroyed for inactivity. As in there was IC reason they were destroyed but ooc reason inactivity punishment.

Even if I do agree with your sentiment.

[Lorkas]

I don't think Benwick was particularly inactive at the time that it was destroyed. It was certainly more active at that time than Fort Bendir was, as I was playing a Bendir PC at the time and almost always went to the Grove, Benwick, or Wharftown (Banite-ruled at the time) for RP since Bendir had such a low level of activity.

I have heard that inactivity contributed to the fall of the newer Stonehold, but I have not heard that about old Stonehold.

We can add old Brogendenstein (now called Umbrick's Hall or just "duergars") to the list of removed settlements, and like the rest it was turned into something new rather than just being deleted. Whereas all of the examples above make for great dungeons, I don't think the same can be said for Burrowhome. None of these places were "deleted" so much as turned into something new to benefit the server, which is exactly how I read what Kuma is saying.

Kohlingen could be an example of something that was just plain deleted, until it rose again.

[Scurvy Cur]

You understand incorrectly, CragOneEye.

Stonehold Mk I was destroyed while the faction was super active, and was destroyed as part of a player run plot: The atrocities committed by Stonehold grew too numerous and great, so Benwick attacked with the full support of a celestial host and leveled it. Within a month, Stonehold Mk 2 was put in place. It was never intended to be a long term deprival of guild house; the new one was ready to go as soon as the old one was removed, and the delay was there to reflect a building period.

Stonehold Mk 2 got flattened for a combination of factors. One was that it was inexcusably huge for a guildhouse. Two was that the faction had shrunk some, but not to the point of inactivity. The most important reason however was that the faction itself had gone off the rails and picked up pretty much every graphic torture afficionado on the server, had an official guild policy in their forum section that you had to take every step possible to powerbuild your character, and had a player posted guide on how best to use Arelith's PvP rules of engagement to ensure that you only had PvP that you knew you would win. Again, as with Stonehold Mk 1, the new guildhall was ready to go the moment it (and the problem players) got removed.

Benwick was removed because a player run plotline finally gave an excuse to remove a settlement that the dev team, as I understand it, had been planning on removing for a while, due to the fact that there was a desire at the time to move away from hard scripted alignment-based settlements. Unlike with the stoneholds, there was no ready-made replacement set up to downsize from full settlement to guildhall, which I think maybe should have been done, for the sake of parity, if nothing else.

Edit: if there is anything that I would like to see, and am seeing in small bits here and there, it is the move away from settlement mechanics being the only basis of legitimacy. Left up to me, all the nicest places to live and base a faction on the server would be outside of settlements entirely, to remove focus from the voting-and-exile dance we've been doing for so long.

[Griefmaker]

recognise that Arelith is tiny in terms of exploration. Don't just add vast empty forests or valleys. The new pass of despair is actually a pain in the Snuggybear, as there's no shortcuts through the little copses any more. That's a sensation of artificial bloating (sorry irongron but it's how i feel).

I agree with this completely. The first time through the pass of despair I thought "cool", the second time I thought "ugh...a maze. And my character would normally just walk through the strip of trees to get to where he wants", then after "where are the damned mages and their damned fireballs to turn this bloody copse into a bonfire so I can walk through to Wharftown and not have to traverse the entirety of the isle?"

In line with the vast empty spaces...I have not been about the swamps/jungles for a few months now, but after they were "opened", I found the entire area...meh. Opening it up is not a bad thing, but for twoish maps, there really was nothing about. Not even resources (with the exception of one clay pit, I think). Creating vast empty spaces "to prevent grinding" without any other reason makes that area and anything beyond it undesirable even to explore.

Each map really needs to have a specific reason to exist, even if it boasts little more than a few resources and an entrance to a dungeon, a shortcut to another place, the random guildhouse, portal, whatever.

Now that example above could have been changed, and I am one who is always excited for new areas and content, but my point is tossing in vast empty areas does not offer much benefit, even for "Exploration Types", like rangers. Little RP can typically be generated with "slogs through quagmire...oh some bad guys *kills them* "right...another 3 miles of mud and bogs..." oh, there is the empty ruins...again. Huh, still not much to see..."

[Scurvy Cur]

I actually have found the new jungle areas to be fantastic. There is maybe room for one more dungeon or major encounter in there, but it's a vast improvement over the old quagmires, which did not have a purpose I could discern other than to randomly kill my melee lowbies by spawning two deadly swamp vipers in amongst the lizardfolk and tigers.

[roy rutan]

We don't cyber down there any more than people in any other part of arelith. I do wish people like you would stop perpetuating false stereotypes.

If anything, we do it less, because drow don't do romance.

it was a joke

Cyber on Arelith has Always been a Bannable offense. so my advice no matter what server of arelith keep it PG13 there are kids out there that play the game and many of them being Amazing rpers, wont let you know their player age. especially if they feel they are getting away with something.

[Irongron]

Corpses in the Pass of Despair? This sounds like a bug issue. Will investigate further.

Obviously with all new areas there will be disagreement, and much as I'd like to I can't please everyone with content. Feedback, if when it is bad, is always welcome.

[DreamOfCream]

Instead of deleting settlements or guildhouses or vast tracts of land, recognise that Arelith is tiny in terms of exploration. Don't just add vast empty forests or valleys. The new pass of despair is actually a pain in the Snuggybear, as there's no shortcuts through the little copses any more. That's a sensation of artificial bloating (sorry irongron but it's how i feel).

You're not alone on this Kuma. Ease of travel between settlements is very important to drive conflict and interaction. The recent changes with the Pass of Despair has made me less inclined to travel there. Striking a fine balance between realism and fun is tough (but we all very much so appreciate your time and effort).

That said the Pass of Despair is one of many. The quagmires in the swamps, that are flat and offer little variety contribute to artificial bloating. Examples of well done expansive areas (IMO) include the Lost Desert, the Spires, the trackless sea if you count that, and the Arelith Forest. Every transition has something different and worth interacting with.

[Kuma]

Corpses in the Pass of Despair? This sounds like a bug issue. Will investigate further.

Obviously with all new areas there will be disagreement, and much as I'd like to I can't please everyone with content. Feedback, if when it is bad, is always welcome.

copse
kɒps/
noun
noun: copse; plural noun: copses
a small group of trees.
synonyms: thicket, grove, wood, coppice, stand, clump, brake;

Sorry! Yeah. I mean the wiggly windy road that takes like five straight minutes to traverse, but cannot be skipped by nipping through the trees which don't look that thick. The old map had these ramps up hills that skipped the road. This is actually an excellent microcosm to demonstrate the possibilities of your random encounter system - make it perfectly safe (save for the Ordinary Spawns) to go over the road, but if you nip between the trees then you run the risk of someone or something jumping out.

+1 to what Dream of Cream said.

EDIT 2: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO

We can add old Brogendenstein (now called Umbrick's Hall or just "duergars") to the list of removed settlements, and like the rest it was turned into something new rather than just being deleted. Whereas all of the examples above make for great dungeons, I don't think the same can be said for Burrowhome. None of these places were "deleted" so much as turned into something new to benefit the server, which is exactly how I read what Kuma is saying.

Kohlingen could be an example of something that was just plain deleted, until it rose again.

The Halls of Umbrick were never actually a town, as far as I know. Its fall happened in the distant past.

I WOULD really love to see that place get a facelift, though, to represent centuries of duergar occupation - the overall sensation of the place is that they've only recently 'won' the place, and could be driven out with a particularly hard counter-attack, which is likely not the case right now. DM Hephaestus' question regarding their MASSIVELY industrious nature implied that they're pretty damn well dug in and have been for some time, founding their own little civilisation against the world. Hell, even signs and stalls on the Ice Road to the place seems to lightly infer that they accept some trade, just not from the PCs.

EDIT THREE: RHYMES

Edit: if there is anything that I would like to see, and am seeing in small bits here and there, it is the move away from settlement mechanics being the only basis of legitimacy. Left up to me, all the nicest places to live and base a faction on the server would be outside of settlements entirely, to remove focus from the voting-and-exile dance we've been doing for so long.

Agreed. Benwick wasn't an actual 'settlement' during the height of the Stonehold v Light Keep wars. Both had elements of settlements; Stonehold was actually more like a walled city, with its own merchants and things. But the main thrust was that both were traditional guildhouses and kept up decades of warfare, all without feeling forced to be attached to a greater city or town mechanic. I'd love to see that return.

[Irongron]

Copse? Ah, I clearly wasn't reading properly.

Still it does surprise me that its a 5 min walk, I thought maybe 90 seconds. Perhaps I'll take a look.

[Kuma]

Copse? Ah, I clearly wasn't reading properly.

Still it does surprise me that its a 5 min walk, I thought maybe 90 seconds. Perhaps I'll take a look.

Perhaps I'm exaggerating for effect as I usually do. The main thrust of my point is that since the treelines are so thin, and the old area had a variety of routes up and over to the Ruins of Old Stonehold, the new map feels like an artificially bloated step back by comparison.

[Irongron]

Something to consider there is that the area is also intended for settlement conflict, be it by dms, players or one of the large group random spawn attacks. The long approach (Which I suspect is less than 60 seconds longer than the old) is partly intended so that can be properly played out without an area transition immediately behind both sides.

I also think that the added distance prevents mobs being led into the town from the nearby and quite high level Forest of Despair.

That's not to say some kind of shortcut won't happen when I next have cause to look at the area, as I get the point. After all, you're never getting those misspent seconds back!

[Lorkas]

@Kuma

Artos posted about pre-fall Umbrick's Hall in the old forums at one point, and the founding of the current Brog (starting as tents or huts on the mountainside). I remember thinking that Umbrick's Hall was always a dungeon until he posted that.

I have tried to look for this post many times and have so far always failed to find it. If anyone else can find it I would love to read it again and save it. That, or if there is someone else who was around the server at that time and knows the real story, I'd really like to hear it either here or in a PM.

[Kuma]

Something to consider there is that the area is also intended for settlement conflict, be it by dms, players or one of the large group random spawn attacks. The long approach (Which I suspect is less than 60 seconds longer than the old) is partly intended so that can be properly played out without an area transition immediately behind both sides.

I also think that the added distance prevents mobs being led into the town from the nearby and quite high level Forest of Despair.

That's not to say some kind of shortcut won't happen when I next have cause to look at the area, as I get the point. After all, you're never getting those misspent seconds back!

Interesting thought, and, playing a character who is against Wharftown atm, is something we had considered IC.

Hm.

[grip]

It is a pretty area and along with the Wharftown update gives the place a far more immersive feel.

The only issue with having settlement conflict there is that unless you can nab a DM the conflict can not take place within sight of the WT guards behind the walls.

But the place is great for big fights as took place some weeks past. Places to run, stand and fight, shoot from, three transitions... It works.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

For the record, I love the new pass of despair. When Wharftown was being renovated, defensibility was a consideration behind the notion IC.

Mind you, Astarial wanted to go entirely overboard and recreate the relocation of the Arcane Tower, except with the fort at Benwick Keep, to place it on the east side where the pass of despair was. Since in theory the portals at Benwick are tied to the location, and not the fort itself, the fiends coming along wouldn't have been an issue, and since the fiends would've been losing their fortification, hypothetically they may have chosen to close down their portals. Win-win!

Altering the terrain to provide a more defensible approach, however, seems to have worked wonderfully. As a player of a Wayman, incredibly happy with the changes.