Arelith

Rogue Update Feedback
I've played rogues for a long time and really like the fantasy of roguish characters. As such I thought that the latest rogue update was a pleasant surprise.

I have gathered some thoughts about the current class features both old and new.

Grenades

I would echo the sentiment that grenades are mechanically simply too good to pass up, even though my personal experience with them is somewhat limited. This is mostly because playing a strength rogue my grenade DC is often too low to affect enemies but my reflex saves are also low enough to be stunned by my own flashbangs. Not exactly a surprising result, and to be clear, I do think grenades are primarily meant for dexterous rogues.

The biggest problem I have with grenades is that the mechanical features are not explained anywhere in the item description or when using Shady Deals. Every description is so vague that it makes it incredibly difficult to make informed decisions on which ones to invest in. It's a bit like trying to make a purchase between greensteel and damask weapons based on their descriptions alone without looking at the actual item stats, which is something that consumables lack entirely.

The only option is to take a field test, which again is not very exact and relies on memory rather than simply examining the item you are about to use. This probably explains why the wiki is also vague about the buffs and debuffs each grenade provides.

In short, I would appreciate more mechanical information about the grenades within the item description itself. Besides that I would say each grenade and gadget has its uses barring a few exceptions and I have issues with some of them.

Smoke Screen

Smoke Screen creates a cloud of smoke that gives everyone nearby 20% concealment, +5 Hide and -5 Spot for the duration of 1 minute.

I can’t think of any scenario where this would come into play as a tool to sneak better. The buff to Hide doesn't last long enough to be used beforehand and you're better off going invisible if your purpose is to escape.

I think if the initial cast actually provided a split second of invisibility to everyone close by, it could be used as a quick escape tool to break line of sight and sneak away. The concealment was handy on occasion, although superseded by Improved Invisibility in most cases.

The only practical use I could think of is throwing a smoke bomb and hastily picking people’s pockets before the Spot debuff runs out.

Exploding Holy Flask

Exploding Holy Flasks are hands down the best rogue grenade for PvE. It covers the main weakness rogues have against undead creatures who are typically tough because of their immunity to sneak attacks.

I don’t know the exact formula but each throw has the potential to deal between 180-210 divine damage split between three rounds to a single target. It also affects multiple creatures at once so a single grenade can easily deal thousands of damage to a group of undead.

It’s great against bosses that you struggle to damage and it takes out hordes of undead with ease. I would honestly consider taking the Simple Experimental Device feat for this grenade alone.

Dust of Silence

Dust of Silence gives everyone nearby +10 Move Silently for 1 minute per rogue level.

This is actually somewhat useful since the effect lasts long enough for you to buff yourself well before sneaking into places. I would say +10 is also significant enough of a boost to be noticeable.

I haven’t used this much myself but I get the feeling I probably should. I would still only consider it in a PvP or roleplay setting rather than PvE.

Disjunction Shard

Much like Exploding Holy Flasks, Disjunction Shards are a great weapon in PvE, easily destroying constructs that rogues usually struggle with. The damage is magical so it bypasses any damage reduction a construct might have. Once again you deal roughly 200 damage per grenade as an epic rogue and can target groups of enemies for even more total damage.

The primary use is of course in PvP to remove buffs from your opponents. The phrasing in the wiki is a little unclear but I assume it removes between 2 to 3 buffs depending on whether or not the target makes the saving throw.

Another must-have grenade that every rogue ought to take.

Mirror Dust

Mirror Dust gives everyone in the smoke dust a -5 AB penalty and 50% miss chance. I actually had no idea the miss chance was as high as concealment from Displacement or Improved Invisibility.

What’s good about the effect is that it cannot be removed by Faerie Fire or Invisibility Purge. What’s bad about the effect is that it applies to everyone in the smoke including you.

I suppose it’s a handy defensive tool when you want to play defensive. I haven’t used it enough myself to really grade it properly.

Beholder Dust

Beholder Dust creates a cloud that gives anyone in it a debuff of -10 Concentration and some Arcane Spell Failure. Clearly intended as an anti-mage grenade. Another application could be to effectively improve one’s Taunt by debuffing Concentration.

I have no idea how much spell failure this actually causes so I’m not sure how useful it is. The effects do linger even after leaving the cloud so you don’t have to keep mages inside it. You can’t throw it though so you have to get up close first before using it.

It seems like a purposeful tool but perhaps not as essential as the others.

Paralytic Caltrop

Paralytic Caltrops are, naturally, caltrops thrown on the ground that force anyone in it to roll a Reflex save vs Traps every round they stay in it. The paralysis itself does not last very long but it will be reapplied over and over until the target moves out of the vicinity. So unless you have high reflex saves. This does apply to you as well so it’s best used by rogues with high saves or thrown further away from you.

I haven’t had much success with these personally but that’s a result of the shortcomings of my build rather than the item itself. The fact that you can either zone out an area between you and an enemy or simply dance in your own caltrops while enemies step on them makes this a versatile tool for any rogue.

Flashbang

Flashbangs cause a stun and reduce all saving throws by 2. The stun itself is quite short lived and so is the debuff, which doesn’t last long after the stun has worn off.

There appears to be some overlap between Paralytic Caltrops and Flashbangs. The main difference is that the former is countered by Freedom of Movement while the latter is countered by Mind Spell Immunity. Another advantage Flashbangs have is that they can be thrown further than caltrops.

My only experience with Flashbangs is them blowing up in my face. I can tell they’re really good though.

Rogue Feats

I really like the new rogue feats. I don’t know if they’d still take priority over epic feats so realistically you’re only going to take 4 or 5 depending on how you multiclass. So starting the rogue feat progression at level 7 helps with that.

Crippling Strike

Crippling Strike is an extremely strong feat that I would consider a must-have.

Being able to reduce someone’s strength by 2 on every sneak attack allows you to render weak characters too weak to run away and strong characters unable to hit you with their big powerful swings.

There are ways to be immune to the effects, which I think is a good thing considering how obnoxious it is to be on the receiving end of it.

Defensive Roll

Defensive Roll is a niche feat on its own. Usually a killing blow that you would like to halve the damage of is so high that the DC is impossible to succeed. And even then halving the damage might not be enough to save you. It’s also only limited to one use per day for some reason.

A prerequisite for Epic Dodge, which is pretty much the only reason to take the feat.

Improved Evasion

I would consider Improved Evasion an essential feat for any rogue. It effectively halves all damage you would take from spells that have a reflex save. Granted if your reflex saves are high enough you might not see a need for it.

Still, it’s also a prerequisite for Epic Dodge so it’s a no-brainer for any dexterous rogues.

Gruesome Technique

This is probably a niche feat. It has no practical use in PvP since the effects won’t occur until after someone has died.

In PvE the fear effect is easy enough to spread among groups of enemies. They don’t run away like I initially thought but the fact that the debuff lowers saving throws allows you to make better use of other tools at your disposal, such as grenades. Presumably fear does more than that but I don’t know for sure.

A mention in the feat description that this feat scales with the Intimidate skill would be helpful to anyone picking it during level up.

Signature Weapon

I’m not sure if this feat has worked since release but on paper +1 attack bonus and damage is always welcome, and +2 intimidate synergizes well with Gruesome Technique.

I’m a little confused as to why you get to choose your signature weapon by using the feat instead of picking the weapon when you took the feat. The fact that you can switch your signature weapon at any time seems to contradict the very definition of a signature weapon. Unless the signature weapon is tied to one particular item rather than a weapon type.

Skirmish Maneuver

I have not tried this feat too much but I don’t see much incentive to take this feat.

The stealth bonuses are fairly low and are clearly meant to be a small perk on top of the main function of the feat.

That said, I’m not sure reducing the AB penalty of Dirty Fighting from -4 to -3 moves the needle all that much. Besides, unlike Knockdown, the DC is not affected by AB at all so it doesn’t actually make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things.

Opportunist

I really liked Opportunist even before the update. Getting +4 AB is fantastic when enemies often cast spells, drink potions or fire ranged weapons within your reach. It is effectively meant as a counter to Mobility, although I doubt anyone would pick it for that reason.

Overall, a solid feat especially with the hide and move silently bonuses. In fact, it even boosts sleight of hand, which is one of the skills used for Dirty Fighting.

Skill Mastery

Taking 20 on any skill roll is a dream. In practice this is only really useful for trappers. Getting +4 to Open Lock definitely bumps this feat up for me if the plan is to break into quarters. Something rogues are supposed to be good at I imagine.

Slippery Mind

Slippery Mind is in a weird spot. On one hand, if you have high enough will saving throws, you have no use for the feat. On the other hand, if you have low will saves, then rerolling is unlikely to make a difference.

Dirty Fighting

This isn't exactly a rogue-only feat but since it's a free rogue feat we might as well consider it one of the main tools in a rogue's arsenal. I also play a strength rogue so the fact that Dirty Fighting is given for free without meeting the prerequisites is appreciated.

Let’s face it, the old Dirty Fighting feat was atrocious. So it wouldn’t take much to say the new Dirty Fighting feat is an improvement. This feat, however, is incredibly good.

Firstly, the feat description is very informative and provides the players with enough details about the DC formula and what the effects of each variant are. I would say this should be the standard every other feat description should follow.

As for the moves themselves, I like that they’re limited in some ways to prevent every character from being able to use them at all times. It’s a good way to balance the ability and it makes sense thematically.

I’m unsure whether or not each variant should have its own skill rather than one skill that governs them all. Intimidating sand into someone’s eyes seems a little odd. But then what skill would govern a headbutt or a kick in the gonads? I guess in terms of clarity it’s good that one skill applies to all Dirty Fighting variants and it’s up to the player to choose which skill to invest in.

Sand in the Eyes

Sand in the Eyes causes blindness upon a failed reflex save.

Probably the most useful attack because you cannot be immune to blindness and blind targets are vulnerable to sneak attacks. I personally don’t like the look of shields so I like having even more incentive to have a free off-hand.

Pommel Strike

Pommel Strike dazes the target, which isn’t as good as a stun considering you can just drink a clarity potion and be on your merry way. Still, it opens you up to sneak attacks, at least for a brief period and it can be used with any melee weapon.

Low Blow

I feel like Low Blow is intended for ranged characters to be able to create distance between whoever is running them down. Although again not limited to any particular fighting style.

The Slow effect is actually really strong. On top of halving movement speed, Slow reduces the target to 1 attack per round and applies a -2 penalty to AC, AB and reflex saves. However, it can easily be countered by Haste.

Nosebreak

Nosebreak stuns the target and we’ve already established that stuns are great. It does require heavy armour or shield but that’s hardly a downside for most people. If not for Mind Blank and Clarity this would probably be the best Dirty Fighting variant besides Sand in the Eyes.

Headbutt

Confusion is an unreliable debuff to say the least. Most of the time the target will just stand there as though stunned but they might just as well keep fighting you or someone else. Not as good as Nosebreak but you cannot drink a potion while confused so it’s better than Pommel Strike. Again, negated by mind spell immunity.

Conclusion

I think all the new features are for the better and offer more reasons to choose a path you want to follow. The biggest problem at the moment with the new feats is that so many other feats are mandatory for rogues that it is difficult to fit them in. At least two feats tend to go into Epic Dodge and grenades might be too useful to give up. The rest are likely down to personal preference and a couple of the new feats could maybe use number adjustments to make them more attractive over the other options.

Some previous rogue updates like changing Specialty Weapons from rogue weapons to all finesse weapons, while an obvious buff to the class, resulted in an indirect nerf for my own character. It was a shame but ultimately changes like this happen and have to serve the majority rather than the individual. This latest update does not take anything away and only offers more toys to play with.

Overall, I feel like rogue as a whole is in a good place. I like the amount of skills you get when you go for a lot of rogue levels but then I also tend to value skills higher than combat prowess. And it’s still a great dip class no matter what.

Disagree on that slippery mind is not useful for high will save characters, because you can still fail on roll 1, and reroll means this chance is much lower.

Juke The Spuke wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:55 pm
Overall, I feel like rogue as a whole is in a good place. I like the amount of skills you get when you go for a lot of rogue levels but then I also tend to value skills higher than combat prowess. And it’s still a great dip class no matter what.

Spuke, you produced a lengthy and thoughtful post and there's so much to respond to. I don't want to reduce the entire thing to your last comments here, but I can't help myself.

You're embracing the idea of rogues as a "skill class". Yes, we do get more skill ranks than anyone else. But there are problems with this idea.

1) Bards are better at a lot of our signature skills. They get access to skills that were previously rogue only or rogue and one or two other classes only. They get a myriad of songs to enhance these skills. They get spells to enhance or replace these skills. If having skills is supposed to be our ace in the hole, rogues are in a terrible place.

2) Being a skill based class is fine for commoners and experts, but generally classes are supposed to be able to handle themselves in combat. Maybe we can make exceptions for explicitly flavor based classes (Harper X, Zhentarim Y) but generally speaking, classes are supposed to be viable in combat. Especially when we're talking about a basic D&D class with decades of development. I think you absolutely should be able to build a rogue that prioritizes skills over combat prowess, but we also need more practical options.

It's still a great dip class!

Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard. These are the basic D&D Classes. Yes, a few of them are great for dipping. But only one of them is lousy unless you use it as a dip. This is a problem.

Waldo52 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:23 am 1) Bards are better at a lot of our signature skills. They get access to skills that were previously rogue only or rogue and one or two other classes only. They get a myriad of songs to enhance these skills. They get spells to enhance or replace these skills. If having skills is supposed to be our ace in the hole, rogues are in a terrible place.

2) Being a skill based class is fine for commoners and experts, but generally classes are supposed to be able to handle themselves in combat. Maybe we can make exceptions for explicitly flavor based classes (Harper X, Zhentarim Y) but generally speaking, classes are supposed to be viable in combat. Especially when we're talking about a basic D&D class with decades of development. I think you absolutely should be able to build a rogue that prioritizes skills over combat prowess, but we also need more practical options.

It's still a great dip class!

Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard. These are the basic D&D Classes. Yes, a few of them are great for dipping. But only one of them is lousy unless you use it as a dip. This is a problem.

Like I said, I definitely over value skills. I like how rogues get Keen Senses for free just so I can avoid walking into traps. I even put more than 1 point into Disable Trap and Open Lock, against general advice.

I did notice this when playing a rogue for the sole purpose of breaking into quarters that I should have just simply made a bard. Bards have access to all the skills rogues do so you don't even have to multiclass. They obviously get bard song, and on top of it all, they get spells like Good Hope and Rogue's Cunning to boost skills well beyond anything a rogue could on their own. It used to be that you need a rogue and a bard in order to break into quarters. Now you only need a bard. Also, unlike bards and assassins, rogues do not get Great Dexterity as a bonus feat, which is something you need when your sole purpose is quarter breaking.

I don't know what exactly makes rogues lousy if you invest a lot into them. Could they be more powerful? Certainly. I can't really compare rogues to other classes since I've not played many of them myself. At least not on Arelith. I have seen Spellswords before and thought they trivialized most of the content in the game. It looked like I was playing NWN and they were playing Path of Exile.

I suppose it's more about the trade-off, or lack thereof, of going epic rogue instead of choosing assassin or shadowdancer. I understand that these classes synergize well together, which I guess is to the detriment of a plain rogue. Why pick rogue when assassin can deal more damage? Why pick rogue when shadowdancer can hide better? Why pick rogue when bard can unlock every door and disable every trap? If epic rogues got something that you might miss when picking assassin or shadowdancer, would that make them better?

Maybe Improved Sneak attack should be easier to take as a rogue. Maybe epic rogues should get all rogue feats for free or at least not at the expense of an epic feat. At least give them Great Dexterity as a bonus feat.

Either way, I feel like the updates were a step in the right direction. Dirty Fighting is a new combat tool to be used, albeit not restricted to the rogue class. Existing rogue feats got buffed and new ones were added. I'm sure they'll expand on this later.

Based on the Feedback, here are a few upcoming changes:

Additions:

• Rogues now have access to Method: Hidden Persona as a Bonus Feat
• Harper and Zhentarim Agents obtains Method: Hidden Persona for free at Level 5
  

  Method: Hidden Persona
  For every 12 ticks of server RPR tick while in disguise, the disguise DC is increased by 1. The bonus is tracked separately for each disguise name. A total bonus of ⅓ character level can be obtained, this means a bonus of 10 for level 30 characters.
  
  On examining self, you will be able to see the comfort level of the disguise:
  Let X be the total bonus
  0 < X < 5: “You are new to this disguise”
  5 ≤ X < 10: “You are proficient in this disguise”
  10 ≤ X < 15: “You are comfortable in this disguise” (Maximum reachable tier is 10 for Rogues without improved method from Vigilante)
  15 ≤ X ≤ 20: “You have mastered this disguise”
  
  Improved Method: Secret Identity: The scaling becomes ⅔ of character level, maxing out at 20 bonus DC

Buffs:

• Method: Gruesome Technique's Fear now procs on the following events:
  Trap Triggering (Once every minute)
  Grenade Explosion (Once every minute)
  Killing Blow (Unlimited)

• Method: Skirmish Maneuvers now does the following for Dirty Fighting
  AB Penalty lowered from 4 to 2 (to 0 for Guerilla Warfare)
  DC increased by 1 (2 for GW)
  Reduces Cooldown from 9 to 7.5 seconds (6 for GW)

Note: Only Vigilantes/Liberators have access to GW

• Skill Mastery now automatically recycles the Rogue's set traps. The chance for the retrieval is as follows:
  Set Trap + Disarm Trap + d20 (not automatic 20)
  vs.
  Original Set Trap DC + 10

Nerfs:

• If a character fails the save against a Dirty Fighting technique, it is granted immunity vs. all Dirty Fighting techniques for the next 12 seconds. (Consistent with other combat feats such as Knockdown and Disarm)

That doesnt help my rogue one bit.

It helped mine instead

Must be nice

because kenji is just bating you with these grenades and save vs cc affects while the real update is basically free dirty fighting and about 2 ab (1 of which is just on dirty fighting but that's the important part anyway) which is pretty meaningful for a stealther.

as a rogue/sd/fighter i got 1 extra feat and dirty fighting extra as i did not take grenades becouse sd doesnt gell with nades.

Dirty fighting is ok but i hardly use it , i duel wield so no pocket sand. (i got lowblow on my bar but thats more for rp as its a fun go for the nuts every now and then.

The on kill fear thing is more of a ghost face killer abillity then a rogue thing and i dont think it fits at all.

But thanks for the 1 free feat (that i would use on nades on a 25 rogue) so nothing changes there.

All this does not adress the fact that us rogues are still feat starved unless you dont go for duel wielding.
And it doesnt adress the fact that bards do every thing rogues do but better.

Well now. I would assume that the boni granted from Opportunist and Skill Mastery are actually hard instead of soft. I didn't test that. Which means that yes, you can actually cap out higher than a bard in those skills but have a harder time reaching your cap. I do not strictly mind that approach.

That said, I've really been trying to wrap my mind around rogues lately, how I feel about this update, what I like and don't like...I've still not reached a conclusion, but.

First of all, I really like the inclusion of basic vigilante stuff as optional feats. It fits, it's cool and it allows for a bit more customization.

On a broader note, I still don't see rogue in a particularly better spot than before unless you only invest 7 or 10 levels into the class. In that case, yeah, you do get some extra AB.
But here's the thing...I still don't believe that rogues need more AB at all. It's not particularly high but you want to get into situation where you can apply your one source of damage - sneak attacks - where you don't actually need the same amount of AB as some others.
Feat starvation has been mentioned a lot of times and I really do agree. Rogues lack about two or three general feats UNLESS you go the standard Rogue/Fighter or Rogue/Ranger route.

And here's another problem . If you go these routes, rogues could already really shine in very specific roles - especially as stealth archers they were already borderline broken. Rogue/Fighter (24/6) is another very strong contender with high AC, good defense and high potential if situational damage. But there's very little inbetween borderline broken and utter dogshit because a lot of other conceptual rogue builds just fall flat on several fronts. I feel like that's generally a bit of an issue with dex/stealth oriented classes but this is really going into feeling territory.

I want to say, "just give rogues either the ranged feats or the two weapon feats for free, just like ranger" but that would probably break those already very strong builds even more.

Adding to that, rogues lack other three things by default that they need as a martial class - 1 APR, Discipline and Shield Proficiency. Which - again - gets fixed by dipping at least five levels in Ranger or Fighter.
Taking more than 25 rogue levels is not a good choice at all since you'll otherwise start losing out on important things. Pure Rogue doesn't do well either.

Dipping into certain fitting prestige classes (for example Shadowdancer, but also Harper Scout or Zent Agent) feels even ickier because in the case of the mentioned ones you have to spend two general feats each to fulfill the class prerequisites.
Which means, we're back to the conundrum of having to pick ranger or fighter too.

I'm rambling quite a bit here and will definitely put these thoughts into a more coherent and actually useful form but.

Thoughts Tldr;
- Taking rogue means also taking ranger or fighter which is weird
- Rogues cannot adequately fulfill their class function on their own.
- It's hard within the current system to improve rogues without making certain builds even more broken.

Thinking more on trope analysis, the "what is a rogue" question. I think the main rogue tropes are-
Infiltrator/cat burglar
Thug
Gadgeteer
Smooth Talker/pickpocket

The epic rogue, in narrative terms, exhibits 2 of the tropes. Often they add smooth talker trope as they mature. But infiltrator + thug is popular. Even thug + gadgeteer has been done to great effect on occasion - Yondu from Guardians of the Galaxy comes to mind.

Subtext wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:24 pm Thoughts Tldr;
- Taking rogue means also taking ranger or fighter which is weird

I agree with most other points but don't get this. NWN is a game expecting you to mix up classes especially with mundanes and melee. Why is that a problem really? Maybe pure rogue could get something (access to ESF Discipline without meeting skill requirement could be nice for example) but most fighter, rogues and barbarians are going to have a dip.

Eyeliner wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:09 pm

Subtext wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:24 pm Thoughts Tldr;
- Taking rogue means also taking ranger or fighter which is weird

I agree with most other points but don't get this. NWN is a game expecting you to mix up classes especially with mundanes and melee. Why is that a problem really? Maybe pure rogue could get something (access to ESF Discipline without meeting skill requirement could be nice for example) but most fighter, rogues and barbarians are going to have a dip.

I guess it belongs fairly close together with that other point about not being able to do its job on its own.
Martial characters here have a range of must-haves that they need to have or they risk gimping themselves too much to be competitive. That's generally having at least 16+ BAB pre epic so you have a base 4 APR. That's having discipline. That's having (Improved) Expertise, Blind Fight, Weapon Focus. That's having the archery feats or the two-weapon line or at least some form of CC (i.e. Knockdown) and shield proficiency.

Rogues don't have these things! Fighters have their boatload of extra feats, Rangers get the feats of their chosen style early on. Both have full AB and discipline. In other words, they do hit those basic requirements on their own. Sure, dips make everything better but a 3 level dip is absolutely a valid choice.

As a rouge, you have to dip AT LEAST 5 levels of a full AB martial class. Four pre epic to hit 16 BAB and another one at 29 or 30 to get as much discipline as possible. And it's almost always either Ranger or Fighter simply because both classes provide a lot of feats very early on which allows you to either take additional feats for effectiveness or a prestige class (like Shadowdancer or Harper Scout/Zent Agent). And then you probably get that sixth level anyway in either class because that gives you more than the 25th rogue level. And boom, we're back to 24/6.

Yes, dips are so commonplace with optimal choices all around but it's not usually as...strict.

I would like to spend some time addressing some of the frequently discussed points, as the feedback process has been invaluable in helping me make informed decisions. Here are my analysis and thoughts on the matter, broken down into a few sections in a couple of posts.

Grenades
To some, grenades are considered an indispensable tool. Therefore, the change in bonus feat is considered superfluous as it offered nothing new in their respective build.

To the others, grenades are considered a gimmick while better options exist and can replace the functions of grenades. The bonus feat is, therefore, a boon to Rogues that are not grenadiers.

Both perspectives are equally valid, and grenades remained as is for the most part, except Gruesome Techniques now granting a chance to fear upon the grenade explosion event. Further buffing grenades overall will only ensure that the former opinion is truer than the latter, which will shoehorn any and all Rogue builds into the Grenadier concept.

Top-end Grenades will need to remain as is. In contrast, lower-end grenades (both Rogue exclusive and ones usable by all) will be brought up to the level of the top-end grenades in terms of utility rather than numbers. But what exactly is considered a top-end grenade? That remains to be determined, and a detailed analysis into each of the individual grenades such as this post by Juke The Spuke is incredibly helpful. If anyone would like to provide further insights into grenades, keep that list in mind and include some non-Rogue exclusive grenades, such as regular caltrops and tanglefoot bags if one chooses to.

Bonus Feats
The grenades will serve as a segway into the bonus feats. The following is a list of bonus feats available to Rogues:

1. Crippling Strike
2. Opportunist
3. Skill Mastery
4. Slippery Mind
5. Method: Gruesome Technique
6. Method: Hidden Persona
7. Method: Signature Weapon
8. Method: Skirmish Maneuver
9. Method: Simple Experimental Device
10. Defensive Roll (10+)
11. Improved Evasion (10+)

Note: Defensive Roll and Improved Evasion are taken at 10+ and unavailable at 7

There are many options to choose from, leading up to the next point: There are still not enough feats to take the new feats, as most dedicated Rogue builds end at 19 to 25. Given 7, 10, 13, 16, 19, and 23, with the 6th bonus feat likely converted to an epic feat, rogue builds are faced with 11 options with 5 effective choices, with 2 compulsory takes on Defensive Roll and Improved Evasion for dex rogues to acquire Epic Dodge. This leaves dex rogues with 3 true options and str rogues with 5 options, with dex rogues being the majority.

Rogues will likely require a bonus feat progression denser than the current iteration. The exact spread will be determined with more internal discussion from the team.

Skills
The sentiment of "Bards do Rogue better than Rogues" has been echoed on various channels. I have concluded that this statement is false in terms of mechanics and concept. There are comparable and quantifiable aspects between the two classes. Still, ultimately they are distinct enough if one can take a step back and look at the overall picture rather than tunnel-vision into their particularities.

We make a simple comparison.

The statement "Bards do Rogue better than Rogues" is false mechanically because bards-

1. Can't Sneak Attack better
2. Can't have more skill points to spend on skill ranks
3. Doesn't have access to Epic Dodge for dex builds
4. Doesn't have access to Dirty Fighting for str builds
5. Doesn't have access to grenades
6. Doesn't have access to the new methods
7. Doesn't have more base HP

The statement "Bard do Rogue better than Rogues" is marginally true in the following respects

1. Has an easier time reaching skill rank ceiling
2. Can solo quarterbreak

The ability to quarterbreak, in the grand scheme of things, is mechanically irrelevant. Here's why:
Will it win PvP fights that determine the outcome of an ongoing conflict RP? Likely not.
Will it allow player characters to obtain sensitive information hidden within quarters that grants the PC an upper hand in the ongoing conflict RP? Likely not (yet).

The ability to quarterbreak, however, is conceptually relevant because it does cater to a very niche and small subset of Rogue/Unscrupulous type RP. And only dedicated bards who can build into a solo QBer take the cake away from the Rogues for this particular type of RP.

However, the ability to reach the skill rank ceiling and provide that support to multiple other characters will affect PvP fights and thereby skew the outcome of an ongoing conflict RP.

Bard will eventually have its solo quarterbreaking capability removed, and party skill rank increase is limited to skills available to bards rather than all skills. (SK and Sincra have begun to look into this, and changes will come in eventuality)

In the end, Rogues are in a good place regarding group utility and skill point distribution, and changes to Bards aren't within the purview of the Rogue Redux. They do serve as a good comparison, however.

Roguish PrCs
For the purpose of discussion, these classes are considered the Roguish PrCs as they share a certain amount of synergies with Rogue:

• Invisible Blade
• Shadow Dancer
• Assassin
• Vigilante
• Liberator

Shaman and Cleric Seeker are excluded from the list as they are caster-based rather than mundane or martial.

WORK IN PROGRESS

I truly appreciate the in depth response to the feedback and sharing of your, and the team's thought process in this, Kenji. A few last points..

Kenji wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:23 am Top-end Grenades will need to remain as is. In contrast, lower-end grenades (both Rogue exclusive and ones usable by all) will be brought up to the level of the top-end grenades in terms of utility rather than numbers.

Sounds cool. However, since Rogue's bonus to grenade's DC scales with rogue levels, I'm concerned that the grenades feat will remain mostly underutilized because any rogue will still have access to the best grenades with no spellcraft check. Therefore, I suggest (granted the buff to these low end grenades is meaningful enough) to tie the bonus to grenades DCs to the grenades feat so only dedicated grenadiers get it.

Kenji wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:23 am Rogues will likely require a bonus feat progression denser than the current iteration.

here I would just increase the epic feats to 22, 24, 26, 28, 30. You may notice it just buffs 99% of rogues by 1 feat compared to now since no one goes for more than 25 rogue, but the full on spy focused ones who decide to sack pvp competence would be rewarded with feats on 28th and 30th which is comforting... For pre epic feats we could leave the progression as is but add yet another feat on 4th but I dont know about that one. I think just 1 more epic feat is already close to over buffing.

Kenji wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:23 am Bonus Feats
The grenades will serve as a segway into the bonus feats. The following is a list of bonus feats available to Rogues:

1. Crippling Strike
2. Opportunist
3. Skill Mastery
4. Slippery Mind
5. Method: Gruesome Technique
6. Method: Hidden Persona
7. Method: Signature Weapon
8. Method: Skirmish Maneuver
9. Method: Simple Experimental Device
10. Defensive Roll (10+)
11. Improved Evasion (10+)

Note: Defensive Roll and Improved Evasion are taken at 10+ and unavailable at 7

There are many options to choose from, leading up to the next point: There are still not enough feats to take the new feats, as most dedicated Rogue builds end at 19 to 25. Given 7, 10, 13, 16, 19, and 23, with the 6th bonus feat likely converted to an epic feat, rogue builds are faced with 11 options with 5 effective choices, with 2 compulsory takes on Defensive Roll and Improved Evasion for dex rogues to acquire Epic Dodge. This leaves dex rogues with 3 true options and str rogues with 5 options, with dex rogues being the majority.

Rogues will likely require a bonus feat progression denser than the current iteration. The exact spread will be determined with more internal discussion from the team.

Not to beat a drum. But Improved Sneak Attack is on that list - its prerequisites are just extremely high. If I had the option on my rogue, I would have taken this feat 5 times.
I would also like to see feats that can support rogues who are not dex based. A dexless based form of ambidexterity to bring other str rogues races in line with half orcs. I'd like to see a dexless version of rapid shot available for seeker rogues/clerics who choose to use bows without requiring 13 dex.

Just seems like we've got a lot of already existing valuable feats people could pick. Just so they don't end up taking epic skill focus three times. I'd love to see rogues get dedicated DPS cookies.

Bards do all that plus summons they can sit behind. This removes any need for Dirty Fighting. Don't want sneak attack because it would draw aggro. Don't need epic dodge because nothing is attacking you.

I can pretty much echo Juke The Spuke's post when it comes to grenades. I’ll try to add a few things. I main deep rogue now for about two years. I don’t actively look for pvp but I don’t shy away from it.

Rogue Grenades:
Smoke Screen
I have not used these in any meaningful way.

Exploding Holy Flask
A strong grenade against anything undead without friendly fire (for me). I use these regularly. During the last DM event I used about 70 alone.

Dust of Silence
A grenade I use often when I go places I shouldn’t be at. I use them also in recon/stealth parties even when not all PCs are stealthy, for flavor.

Disjunction Shard
Great against constructs. When I noticed the breach had a save I discarded them from pvp usage. The recent buff is very welcome and make them considerable in pvp situations.

Mirror Dust
I haven’t used these. Mainly because they debuff my character aswell. However I can see a glimpse of usefulness, when I want to ward up or set up something while being attacked and have no means to break line of sight.

Beholder Dust
An anti caster grenade. I don’t like using it because my character would be without action for the round and be close to enemy casters. I’d rather use a lesser breach or mords gem->corner sneak->hit, etc.

Paralytic Caltrops
They are not bad. They can even be good if you/your party is immune to the effect and enemies keep walking into or are held in the field.

Flashbang
I didn’t use these much. You throw, the enemy fails, you run up and sometimes you get a hit in. Just doesn’t seem worth it for attacking. Might be decent tool to increase distance from an enemy however.

Non-rogue grenades:
Acid flask
Does minor acid damage when thrown, suppose ok when dealing with trolls and you have nothing else.
I tested the throw on PGCC a little and the targeted damage is correct but the splash was always 4 acid damage.
Damage formula from the Wiki: Damage = target [1 + rogue / 4]d6 + splash [0 + rogue/6]d6

Acid bomb
One of the top grenades in pvp because of its saveless slow effect. The targeted damage is ok too, I usually forget to target the enemy and miss out on it because of that.
Damage formula from the Wiki: Damage = target [10 + rogue / 4]d6 + splash [1 + rogue/6]d6

Alchemist Fire
The poor mans temporary essence! I used this a few times for its weapon effect. However, the duration is not long enough to be used effectively. Throwing them does minor damage, better do something else with your round.
I tested the throw on PGCC a little and the targeted damage is correct but the splash was always 4 fire damage.
Damage formula from the Wiki: Damage = target [1 + rogue / 4]d6 + splash [0 + rogue/6]d6

Fire bomb
Same damage as acid bomb. Good when you don’t want or need the slow effect of the acid bomb.
Damage formula from the Wiki: Damage = target [10 + rogue / 4]d6 + splash [1 + rogue/6]d6

Caltrops
I was told Caltrops are slowing anyone inside the zone a little, I tried that out and found its not correct or its so minor its unnoticeable. They also do a little damage. I don’t use them.

Coldstone
Ooops, cant be thrown.

Thunderstone
Funny effect grenade. The ground shakes, good for pranks.
A fortitude save is rolled but I don’t think this appiles deafened to those struck in the area. Atleast I didn’t see a failed cast when I tried it in PvE.

Choking powder
Pretty good grenade. It’s a top grenade when you’re immune to poison since you can stand in the cloud and sneak attack away.

Tanglefoot bag
A decent way to stop someone from getting away. It does catch ungeared or non-dex characters usually. I think it’s in an ok spot.


Some more ramblings:
* Paralytic Caltrops and Flashbang are introduced to the rogue fairly late, the last level for many. I guess it’s necessary. I just wished there was a way to introduce them earlier and give some incentive to find their uses.
* I remember, back then leveling a rogue wasn’t easy, this might have been made easier with the additional feats, gruesome technique looks kind of fun. You need a lot of consumables and gear to function properly. Soloing most places while leveling was difficult and often required creative play. I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing. But you look at classes that solo with ease and .. you know.
* Most grenades can be found on mobs and non-rogue grenades can be crafted or bought. An exception I found are the 1x2 size rogue grenades. These only seem to be dropping on Skal for whatever reason. Rogues can’t try them out unless they spend gold via -rogue. Gold which is better spend elsewhere like potions, wands, gear.
* Grenades are usually terrible in groups, because friendly fire and ppl love running into everything.

Kenji wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:24 am Skills
The sentiment of "Bards do Rogue better than Rogues" has been echoed on various channels. I have concluded that this statement is false in terms of mechanics and concept. There are comparable and quantifiable aspects between the two classes. Still, ultimately they are distinct enough if one can take a step back and look at the overall picture rather than tunnel-vision into their particularities.

We make a simple comparison.

The statement "Bards do Rogue better than Rogues" is false mechanically because bards-

1. Can't Sneak Attack better
2. Can't have more skill points to spend on skill ranks
3. Doesn't have access to Epic Dodge for dex builds
4. Doesn't have access to Dirty Fighting for str builds
5. Doesn't have access to grenades
6. Doesn't have access to the new methods
7. Doesn't have more base HP

The statement "Bard do Rogue better than Rogues" is marginally true in the following respects

1. Has an easier time reaching skill rank ceiling
2. Can solo quarterbreak

The ability to quarterbreak, in the grand scheme of things, is mechanically irrelevant. Here's why:
Will it win PvP fights that determine the outcome of an ongoing conflict RP? Likely not.
Will it allow player characters to obtain sensitive information hidden within quarters that grants the PC an upper hand in the ongoing conflict RP? Likely not (yet).

The ability to quarterbreak, however, is conceptually relevant because it does cater to a very niche and small subset of Rogue/Unscrupulous type RP. And only dedicated bards who can build into a solo QBer take the cake away from the Rogues for this particular type of RP.

However, the ability to reach the skill rank ceiling and provide that support to multiple other characters will affect PvP fights and thereby skew the outcome of an ongoing conflict RP.

Bard will eventually have its solo quarterbreaking capability removed, and party skill rank increase is limited to skills available to bards rather than all skills. (SK and Sincra have begun to look into this, and changes will come in eventuality)

In the end, Rogues are in a good place regarding group utility and skill point distribution, and changes to Bards aren't within the purview of the Rogue Redux. They do serve as a good comparison, however.

I am currently levelling a bard quarterbreaker.
The entire build is horribly trash besides that ONE niche thing that they do. I literally die to all mobs. I cannot level alone. The build ACTIVELY makes me seek out roleplay in order to do this one job. It actually makes it super fun. And I think that is a good trade off!! Trading in not being able to do certain dungeons or even things in the game to be able to do the one thing most people can't. It makes you super weak, except for that one thing. And that's how it should be imo.

I don't think removing QB from bard is solving the problem. But making more issues and nerfing a class that doesn't need to be nerfed.

Instead, Rogue should be given more quartbreaking tools that make it easier to reach the high dc levels bards can. That's the real issue here. The song is what helps Bards reach those high dcs. If Rogues had some sort of extra feat or skill or tools they could acquire to make it easier to break into quarters- I think that'd actually make more room for interesting QB rp.

Also Bards are basically rogues with magic. So I think it makes sense they're able to do stuff like this.

TurningLeaf wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:21 pm Bards do all that plus summons they can sit behind. This removes any need for Dirty Fighting. Don't want sneak attack because it would draw aggro. Don't need epic dodge because nothing is attacking you.

Can you elaborate on the "that" on "Bards do all that"? What is it that Rogues do, but Bards also do "all" of them? As pointed out, Bards don't Sneak Attack, Bards don't get access to Epic Dodge, Bards don't throw grenades, and more, so the statement is false.

Suppose the implication is that bards do not need any of the features that Rogues have, as bards can summon low-level summons. In that case, that argument is flawed for a variety of reasons listed below:

1. The Summon Creature spells for Bard go up to only level 6, and the level at which those spells are gained also lagged behind a full caster. A level 16 bard can summon a creature of the 6th level while a full caster of equivalent level (15 or 16) can summon a creature of the 8th level. The inability to do content using lower-tier Summon Creature will be very apparent early on, not to mention epic-level content.
2. Comparing caster-based gameplay, summon and sit back, versus physical-attack-based gameplay, using a weapon to kill and obtaining high enough AC to tank content, is an ineffectual comparison.
3. A more productive comparison is to make one that is based on a specific function:
   - If one wants to compare combat prowess, they then take the Battle Bard and Rogue builds into account and calculates the AB, damage potential, and utility to achieve and maximize damage output.
   - If one wants to compare skill set and utility, they then take the Song Bard and Rogue Skill Monkey builds into account, and calculate the effort it takes to maximize skill ranks.

For anyone with experience in playing Bards, it is well known that they are notoriously hard to level alone as they often rely on others to do the killing and tanking for them. The following post quoted below will simply confirm that notion.

Peachoo wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 1:12 am I am currently levelling a bard quarterbreaker.
The entire build is horribly trash besides that ONE niche thing that they do. I literally die to all mobs. I cannot level alone. The build ACTIVELY makes me seek out roleplay in order to do this one job. It actually makes it super fun. And I think that is a good trade off!! Trading in not being able to do certain dungeons or even things in the game to be able to do the one thing most people can't. It makes you super weak, except for that one thing. And that's how it should be imo.

I don't think removing QB from bard is solving the problem. But making more issues and nerfing a class that doesn't need to be nerfed.

Instead, Rogue should be given more quartbreaking tools that make it easier to reach the high dc levels bards can. That's the real issue here. The song is what helps Bards reach those high dcs. If Rogues had some sort of extra feat or skill or tools they could acquire to make it easier to break into quarters- I think that'd actually make more room for interesting QB rp.

Also Bards are basically rogues with magic. So I think it makes sense they're able to do stuff like this.

A few things to address here:

1. Certain builds and concepts can be hard to solo level, and while they may take effort to RP and group up with others, it does not justify why a build such as a solo quarterbreaker should exist.
2. Bards are Bards, Rogues are Rogues. Mechanically Bards are not Rogues with Magic. Mechanically Bards are 3/4 BAB 2/3-casters with emphasis on bard song/curse song that buff allies and debuff enemies. They do not have the kill potential with the right setup as they do not have any amounts of sneak attack when a target is flanked or flatfooted.
3. It does not make sense that bards, at most a 2/3 arcanist and able to sing a song, are capable of breaking quarters when a master thief or an agent of a deity can not.

If you all have more feedback regarding the decision and future changes for Bards, do it at the Bard Feedback Thread.

Let's keep the posts similar to these posts as they are on topic, relevant, and productive to the matters at hand:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=39288&start=50#p308307
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=39288&start=50#p308617

Sneak attack would be better if it was a toggle though wouldn't it? As to your other question I was referring to your 2 point list not your longer list.