meme posting

[Perplexia]

two pages in and we've already found a way to twist "people can't help but reference memes and pop culture while playing their thinly veiled self-inserts" into "arelith is dominated by OOC cliques"

wrap it up folks, thread's over

[Exordius]

As someone who does sometimes do memes and clownish stuff IC, if its making it unfun for you and is pissing you off then by all means let me know OOC and ill try to cut back on it IC as much as i can.

[Royal Blood]

Let people have fun.

Why? Why must we make sure the players doing the least are "having fun"? What does that even mean?

I don't think this has anything to do with ESL. No-one is arguing that we should all write in Elizabethan English. I think the complaint describes a kind of discord-brained player who knowingly treats public, IC spaces as an extension of their private group chats. They are neither children nor ESL and not, in my experience, a new player.

I would argue it's not even about having fun, it's a projection of their OOC in-group culture, a display of soft power.

For all this talk of elitism, ironically the only time I've ever felt shut out or gatekept on Arelith is when I've tried to interact with a player or faction I've heard is cool but have found to spend a great deal of time joking around and acting out IRL memes. And you're iced out or brushed off if you don't play along and speak the shibboleths. Very, very frustrating when this is happening in a settlement or faction crucial to your character concept and you can't just avoid them.

Someone who is actually "having fun" will survive a respectful, rule-abiding opinion. My fun has never precluded someone speaking their mind.

I think this is well said. Being like super real I've noticed this a lot lately. Like, a lot a lot. It's actually super affirming to my sanity that this forum thread is here and like just brings attention to it because I was lowkey wondering if I was the only one seeing it and was being too picky?

Ultimately, this is a super collaborative environment and things are always going to kinda rub someone the wrong way. I think maybe the only constructive thing I could add is like just self reflect. Like if people are saying meme culture and meme behavior is becoming distracting and detracting maybe it is and it's worth just looking at our own conducts and just like being more aware of what we're doing.

Downside in my opinion to this meme culture is the more annoyed people get about it, the more it'll pop up.

I think it would help if the DM's made a clear statement on this too. Whatever they thought was appropriate or like just expressing the standard that they want to see from the player base. Cause without like an official statement from DMs or Admins it's just players arguing amongst themselves about what is appropriate which is different for everyone but becomes universal when a staff member makes a statement.

Edit: Just wanted to add like we're all here to have fun and how people have fun is different. Arelith is an RP server though and I super enjoy the characters here and I think it's important to just maintain a culture that like encourages commitment to the RP elements of the server.

[Kuma]

I think it would help if the DM's made a clear statement on this too. Whatever they thought was appropriate or like just expressing the standard that they want to see from the player base. Cause without like an official statement from DMs or Admins it's just players arguing amongst themselves about what is appropriate which is different for everyone but becomes universal when a staff member makes a statement.

I cannot claim to be an admin or a DM but I can claim to have a dog in the race regarding respect for the setting. I would point people to the most basic rule of Arelith.

"Roleplaying on this server is a requirement. Do not use OOC in chat. Do not use internet slang or directly reference either real life places, people or events."

• Arelith Wiki

"Role Play
We’re a roleplay server, this brings with it the requirement you stay ‘In Character’ at all times."

• Arelith website

[Chaoshawk]

Those of you feeling called out by the OP should have higher opinions of yourselves. There is a stark difference between wondering if your RP is not liked and the person in the town square emoting or discussing “choccy milk.”

Saying things like “Rizz” or memeing in character is not the same as it being demanded you do not have typos or use archaic or anachronistic English. It is intellectually dishonest to repeatedly point at the personal dislike of one person saying “I mean” and conflating it with the concern some players have their characters make ooc remarks in character.

Someone saying “Hey” or “Yo” is not going to get you as judged as memelords. For those saying let others have fun, it should be clear that breaking immersion harms the fun of people here to engage in roleplay and stories they cannot do so on other mediums. NWN is very unique compared to MMOs for potential of immersion as well as quality and speed of play.

There are some who play snarky irreverent marvel movie pastiches, but, the worst thing is when people with the capacity to roleplay fluently in english choose to use ooc jokes to take us out of roleplay in public spaces. Imagine if new players see people discussing choccy milk when arriving in Andunor on their bad guy/monster character. It would send the message it is not the sort of environment conducive to serious storytelling and rp.

[Windows95 CD-ROM]

Those of you feeling called out by the OP should have higher opinions of yourselves. There is a stark difference between wondering if your RP is not liked and the person in the town square emoting or discussing “choccy milk.”

Saying things like “Rizz” or memeing in character is not the same as it being demanded you do not have typos or use archaic or anachronistic English. It is intellectually dishonest to repeatedly point at the personal dislike of one person saying “I mean” and conflating it with the concern some players have their characters make ooc remarks in character.

Someone saying “Hey” or “Yo” is not going to get you as judged as memelords. For those saying let others have fun, it should be clear that breaking immersion harms the fun of people here to engage in roleplay and stories they cannot do so on other mediums. NWN is very unique compared to MMOs for potential of immersion as well as quality and speed of play.

There are some who play snarky irreverent marvel movie pastiches, but, the worst thing is when people with the capacity to roleplay fluently in english choose to use ooc jokes to take us out of roleplay in public spaces. Imagine if new players see people discussing choccy milk when arriving in Andunor on their bad guy/monster character. It would send the message it is not the sort of environment conducive to serious storytelling and rp.

Couldn't have said this better myself. I have seen this kind of behaviour in character as well on Arelith, and having seen the side of MMO RP the difference between immersion and culture is HUGE.

[great balls of fire]

Let people have fun.

Why? Why must we make sure the players doing the least are "having fun"? What does that even mean?

I don't think this has anything to do with ESL. No-one is arguing that we should all write in Elizabethan English. I think the complaint describes a kind of discord-brained player who knowingly treats public, IC spaces as an extension of their private group chats. They are neither children nor ESL and not, in my experience, a new player.

I would argue it's not even about having fun, it's a projection of their OOC in-group culture, a display of soft power.

For all this talk of elitism, ironically the only time I've ever felt shut out or gatekept on Arelith is when I've tried to interact with a player or faction I've heard is cool but have found to spend a great deal of time joking around and acting out IRL memes. And you're iced out or brushed off if you don't play along and speak the shibboleths. Very, very frustrating when this is happening in a settlement or faction crucial to your character concept and you can't just avoid them.

Someone who is actually "having fun" will survive a respectful, rule-abiding opinion. My fun has never precluded someone speaking their mind.

I think this is well said. Being like super real I've noticed this a lot lately. Like, a lot a lot. It's actually super affirming to my sanity that this forum thread is here and like just brings attention to it because I was lowkey wondering if I was the only one seeing it and was being too picky?

[. . .]

You're not crazy. The meme-ing has gone from the occasional laugh to constant and all the time, especially in certain highly trafficked social hubs. There's always going to be a bit of joking and light hearted memeing and references, but we have really gotten to a point where it's not too dissimilar to Goldshire WoW RP. Constantly. All the time. Everywhere.

There's nothing wrong with the community being interested in maintaining and upholding ourselves to a base standard of RP. Nor is it wrong from pointing out how the memery is often used by players who are not new to the server, but rather are some folks who have gotten maybe a little too comfortable treating the server's public spaces like their discord call.

Marsi, Kuma, and Chaoshawk have really hit the nail on the head. I have no notes.

For everyone who has read this thread and had a moment realizing maybe they are part of the problem, and are willing to reflect and change. I love you. I wish you a very merry RPR and a happy new year.

[Eira]

A traditional way of memeing in the moment is through sending a tell to your friend with the joke that you otherwise would have your character say. That way, you can still get the laugh, but you're not having your character say "ugh I can't wait for mommy abaazuur to step on me" ingame.

[Cybren]

What if I don’t have any friends

[Tarkus the dog]

A traditional way of memeing in the moment is through sending a tell to your friend with the joke that you otherwise would have your character say. That way, you can still get the laugh, but you're not having your character say "ugh I can't wait for mommy abaazuur to step on me" ingame.

bruh

edit: that was a tell

[D4wN]

I see a lot of people hung up about my comment getting annoyed with “I mean” as a start of every sentence. I’m not saying that I care if it comes up once in a while. But when the phrasing was immensely popular I experienced having almost every character around me start every single sentence like that. It was very annoying. Thankfully it’s declined a lot in usage so it doesn’t bother me anymore. It was simply an example, nothing more. Please don’t take everything so literally or personally.

I also don’t expect people to use old English and I’m totally okay with words like “okay” or “yo” etc. I also acknowledge that to many players English is a second and sometimes third or fourth language. I don’t care about typos, I don’t care about incorrect words (English is my second language too and I get it wrong at times as well). I don’t care about using words in emote like bonk. I do care when a phrase is very popular on the internet and all the sudden everyone starts using it every few seconds. But frankly it annoys me IRL when people do that too. Maybe I’m just old. Who knows. (I’m definitely old).

My main point of issue is simply the overuse of memes or modern phrasing I guess. I don’t mind IC jokes at all and am known to enjoy the occasional dad joke on Thomas making sure they are at least setting appropriate. I think with many things on this server and in general moderation is key. And maybe reading the room as well. If you’re in a very serious RP scenario, having someone memeing or going out of their way to use modern slang it can really impact immersion.

[Cybren]

Getting mad at “I mean” does strike me as peak boomerposting, yeah

[D4wN]

Getting mad at “I mean” does strike me as peak boomerposting, yeah

You know I’m a boomer. No need to call me out like that. Wth

Again tho. My point is that it’s annoying when everyone does it every single sentence. I don’t really care otherwise.

[great balls of fire]

To be fair to Dawn...
Over use of a convention does tend to kill said convention. starting sentences with "I mean...." all the time, or "Mhm?" or hums I would categorize as "crutch" lines. Crutch lines are lines you've gotten really comfortable with using as a stable for your character portrayal and start to use them semi-unconsciously all the time because you're articulating immediate responses.

I don't consider crutch lines meme posting. Bad habits, sure. (I have plenty of my own crutch phrases that sneak up on me.) But not harmful to immersion or play.

I would be more annoyed with trying to have a serious moment with someone or trying to have a meaningful conversation and getting flippant/irreverent/silly responses. Again, it's fine if that's the RP for that character, but we can usually tell when a broody super serious knight person is responding "get good" and side stepping in circles when someone is trying to tell them about a [serious pvp/intrigue thing].

A good challenge for everyone, even people who think they're keeping totally IC, is to check up how you write/speak on the forums, on discord, etc, and then run that against how you write IG.

Is the diction same? Are your OOC opinions the same as your IC one? Have you ever repeated something said OOC word for word IC?

It's kind of hard to create a unique narrative voice or maintain a character for a long period of time that has opinions/perspectives different from yours. Changing up your lexicon to reflect the character you're playing is some advanced writing stuff, but you might have a lot of fun inventing your own turns of phrase and expanding your vocabulary.

Out of place memery is usually a sign to me that the writer is insecure about the quality of their writing, afraid they can't or won't be "good enough", or have an aversion to treating with vulnerability or serious scenes where they might "do it wrong". Have a little confidence, do yourself some credit. You're probably a better writer then you think if you put in a little effort.

[perseid]

As just another voice on the pile I think it's fair to criticize overt memeing since I am in the camp of people who feel like immersion has sort of become a secondary consideration more and more across the server both in terms of content implementation and conduct by the player base. That said, I think criticizing modern language structures too much, or even just anachronistic language, also runs the risk of ignoring the candor of the setting material itself. The official canon is rather ripe with things that ultimately are derivatives/references of irl culture and so I think over demonization is also a fair concern. To toss out one example, here's some quotes from the Portal Graffiti entry in Underdark:

"For a good time, call a cleric of Sharess."
"Krusk was here."
On a portal leading to the Elemental Plane of Water: "Swimsuits optional."
On a portal leading to the Elemental Plane of Fire: "Don't forget the marshmallows."

[Dr. B]

I see a lot of people hung up about my comment getting annoyed with “I mean” as a start of every sentence. I’m not saying that I care if it comes up once in a while. . . . Please don’t take everything so literally or personally.

I even got annoyed every time someone started their sentence with "I mean.."

What was the non-literal meaning of the latter sentence? Was "every" once a figure of speech for "sometimes"? I must be out of touch with you boomers and your slang.

Sorry. But come on. Say what you mean, or write more carefully. Don't say one thing and then call people literal-minded when they reply to what you, ostensibly, actually said.

[Edens_Fall]

Let people have fun.

Why? Why must we make sure the players doing the least are "having fun"? What does that even mean?

I don't think this has anything to do with ESL. No-one is arguing that we should all write in Elizabethan English. I think the complaint describes a kind of discord-brained player who knowingly treats public, IC spaces as an extension of their private group chats. They are neither children nor ESL and not, in my experience, a new player.

I would argue it's not even about having fun, it's a projection of their OOC in-group culture, a display of soft power.

For all this talk of elitism, ironically the only time I've ever felt shut out or gatekept on Arelith is when I've tried to interact with a player or faction I've heard is cool but have found to spend a great deal of time joking around and acting out IRL memes. And you're iced out or brushed off if you don't play along and speak the shibboleths. Very, very frustrating when this is happening in a settlement or faction crucial to your character concept and you can't just avoid them.

Someone who is actually "having fun" will survive a respectful, rule-abiding opinion. My fun has never precluded someone speaking their mind.

I agree, it's not our job to make sure others are having fun. Rather, my statement was to imply it's not our job to ruin anothers enjoyment of a game based on our own sensibilities. As to what the meaning of fun is . . . Well that is unique to each person. Some enjoy settlement management, while others enjoy PvP. Still others enjoy light RP with friends. There is no set standard, and that's what makes Arelith great!

Forgive me but I am not sure what ESL stands for, nor do I have a proper grasp of soft power and its projection.

As for the last part I do have some personal experience, but interestingly enough in a sort of reverse way? Having rolled several elf PCs over the years after feeling ostracized for not having an indepth or complete understanding of elven lore and thus sort of ignored for lacking proper RP of the race. Eventually I just sort of gave up on the idea of ever playing in that settlement and moved on. So yeah, I can completely understand how you can feel in such similar situations.

Luckily we both agree on the OP's topic, as due many others it seems. My only concern, as mentioned before, is for a shift into an overly policed RP setting that drives away those with little to no experience with Rp or the game. Not all can be as old or practiced with D&D as some in the community. Of course, by some I include myself. I am old, despite my desire otherwise.

(Edit for spelling of course.)

[great balls of fire]

I appreciate the concern of over-policing the setting too far as that it becomes alienating of people who haven't had the time (nor inclination) to read 3-4 different source books. However, Arelith has always been famously terrible at any kind of setting fluency. In recent years there has been an attempt to work from source material as much as there's been introductions of home-brew content: half-giants and hemomancers to name a few. There's no DM literacy exam to measure how versed the staff is in D&D lore either. The server's always thrived on rule of cool (within reason) when it comes to setting lore and portrayal there-of.

As we can all agree, language like "goon squad," "get good," "owned?" and other iterations of meme-posting are cringe, and so do not apply to rule of cool.

I don't think Arelith is in danger of ever becoming too conservative/setting policed. There's just way too many sourcebooks to expect anyone to be well read, and even the people who do read are usually not on the same page. Not to mention how setting portrayal can shift drastically depending on what DM is at the wheel. I like to think most people are cool with suspension of disbelief so long as the other player is putting an effort to be in character.

I would honestly rather engage with someone's half-angel-half-drow-half-giant halfling wolf girl OC going through their 5th religious crisis of the week then deal with a collective faction memeing about "no maidens??" in a public hub. At least one of these parties is making an effort to write something unique and original.

note:
esl stands for english second language. it's a short hand for referring to people whose first language isn't english

p.s
sorry to hear about your experience with elf town. it always sucks when a concept doesn't land with the intended audience.

[Kuma]

As just another voice on the pile I think it's fair to criticize overt memeing since I am in the camp of people who feel like immersion has sort of become a secondary consideration more and more across the server both in terms of content implementation and conduct by the player base. That said, I think criticizing modern language structures too much, or even just anachronistic language, also runs the risk of ignoring the candor of the setting material itself. The official canon is rather ripe with things that ultimately are derivatives/references of irl culture and so I think over demonization is also a fair concern. To toss out one example, here's some quotes from the Portal Graffiti entry in Underdark:

"For a good time, call a cleric of Sharess."
"Krusk was here."
On a portal leading to the Elemental Plane of Water: "Swimsuits optional."
On a portal leading to the Elemental Plane of Fire: "Don't forget the marshmallows."

none of these is rizz sussy baka amogus or even CLOSE to its equivalent in whatever era (leaving graffiti like this is as old as Rome, anyhow)

this isn't hard to grasp.

the actual game and canon are meant to be fun! nobody is saying don't have fun! people are saying have fun within the setting, and it does already have a fair amount of camp rib-poking at times but it never leans quite so heavily on the fourth wall it breaks itself trying to over-correct.

[MRFTW]

IC memeing is probably a reflection of the RP-Lite culture that exists among many players.

[Edens_Fall]

I would honestly rather engage with someone's half-angel-half-drow-half-giant halfling wolf girl OC going through their 5th religious crisis of the week then deal with a collective faction memeing about "no maidens??" in a public hub. At least one of these parties is making an effort to write something unique and original.

This statement made my morning, and thank you for the abrivation clarification!

[D4wN]

I see a lot of people hung up about my comment getting annoyed with “I mean” as a start of every sentence. I’m not saying that I care if it comes up once in a while. . . . Please don’t take everything so literally or personally.

I even got annoyed every time someone started their sentence with "I mean.."

What was the non-literal meaning of the latter sentence? Was "every" once a figure of speech for "sometimes"? I must be out of touch with you boomers and your slang.

Sorry. But come on. Say what you mean, or write more carefully. Don't say one thing and then call people literal-minded when they reply to what you, ostensibly, actually said.

Sorry, what I meant was that back then (when "I mean.. " was hip and cool to put in front of every sentence) almost every person started every sentence with "I mean.." and it was frustrating at times. It doesn't mean I scrutinise every person starting their sentence with that once in a while using it in moderation. In fact, I don't really mean to scrutinise people at all, I'm just saying that when you have phrases and memes etc being overused it can definitely impact RP. Sorry if I did not articulate myself well enough.

[Paint]

Reading the discourse that's followed, I think I had a knee-jerk reaction to what I usually see as unnecessary roleplay policing. But -- something keeps digging at me, so I guess I'm going to pick another fight.

There were a few mentions of likening roleplay to work and effort and insisting that memesters don't put in the effort to create good roleplay, and I think maybe this is sort of framing the issue incorrectly. Some of those memesters people complain about are actually pretty adept roleplayers who know how to contribute to a good tale. What's happening is, when they're relaxing and chattering in hub-areas, they're dissolving the atmosphere for other people, right? Sucking the immersion out of the room. Like a vacuum. Or a jello salad. And that sucks and that's no good. It doesn't really mean that they're terrible roleplayers, though; just means they've learned that certain behaviors are fine because they've not been told to knock it off yet, and there's a burgeoning culture of it that's gaining traction.

By labeling these memesters -- I'm gonna call them that -- as low-effort roleplayers, and furthermore, as some of you have in this topic, by putting yourself on a higher pedestal and implying that you're more creative or more dedicated to roleplay, you're drawing some pretty hostile and unnecessary lines, and assuming opinion as objective fact. As a person motivated almost entirely by spite in several compartments of my life, I can assure you, there's no better way to get someone to dig their heels in and become stuck in their ways than insist they suck and that you're great.

So to sum up, excessive memeing bad, but it probably doesn't reflect on someone's ability to roleplay nearly as much as you think, and you probably shouldn't call those folks terrible roleplayers, because it'll probably just piss them off and make them dismiss your points entirely. Instead, like what I think a lot of folks have been doing here anyway, just call out the specific behavior and why you hate it. I think that's been done pretty eloquently already, but I do think that there is an urge to other people that is, at best useless, and at worst, actively harmful to achieving the goals you'd like to achieve.

[Eyeliner]

Discord is the elephant in the room, since so many memes are flying there and some players probably blur the line between hanging out with friends there and hanging out with friends IC. I know the feeling where you have some perfect opportunity to reference some joke made with a Discord friend IC, or some popular pop culture reference or meme, but I think that's best done in tells if it has to be IG.

I also think only a small fraction of players who use Discord check the forums regularly and this discussion isn't going to reach them. The forums seem to me to be where the more old-school players who are more concerned about RP standards go and it's preaching to the choir here.

(edit- I'm not anti-Discord at all and find it very useful so don't take this as me saying people shouldn't use it, which would be an impossible demand anyway)

[Richrd]

Meme saturation IC has gone too far years ago.

But it's good to see that it's finally reached a point where a handful of people go to the forums to complain about it.

Now ... if we just give this a couple more months and maybe two or three more threads in here we might actually get some proper enforcement of the RP rules and a more immersive setting. That'd be great.