Plot Fatigue - What is too many?

[Craithe]

I agree with a lot of this post. I can think of plenty of players/friends who don't even bother looking up from what they're doing when DM events go on because they have the perception that if the event isn't already catered to a specific group, its soon going to be taken over by a group and ball guarded from the community at large.

I think the start of this thread is speaking much more from a privileged position of having characters with extremely easy access to the front row seats of DM plots. If there is fatigue felt, step away. If its too many plots to keep up with, bow out. The concept of being shamed for not paying attention to 'world ending' DM plots is silly, because the plots will move on with or without your participation, and I believe there are plenty of players who would leap at the chance to get involved in DM events if they just felt like they had the opportunity, or felt like they wouldn't be pushed out for not being part of the right factions.

I've sat on the sideline of plots, trying to get a toe in the door and being pushed out. I've likewise seen plots pass by and just carried on with my usual content without consequence. It really isn't such a focal point that if you're not invested you're condemned. Hell, I've walked in on major DM conflicts and had my character say they're just minding their own business trying to get to their next dungeon, and I was free to jog on.

I do feel for the players who have their events overtaken by DM plot priority. That sucks and should probably be better organized/timed. But that's also the flow of roleplay. Probably hard to have a tea party when an earthquake is destroying your local theater.

Again, I am being called out here so I feel the need to respond. This isn't about being 'privileged'. I'm not. I'm not a DM favourite and I don't get plots thrown at me every week. I have played on Arelith for about 9 RL years and perhaps been in the spotlight 3-4 times in all those years across 4 characters. I take a lot of pride in actually helping others to shine and push them to the front of plots.

My post came from the fact that I was enjoying two back to back player events. The first being cut short due to insufferable lag and the second interrupted by calls for aid. And I see it happen again and again. I have been wanting to host events now for several weeks, but they cost a lot of time and effort to organise and I don't want all that go to waste if no one shows up or everyone leaves mid-way through when the world is ending (again). These major island wide plots have been happening now for most of this year back to back with several plots never finished/concluded. When a rot cube slithers through the city you play in, naturally you're going to have some involvement. When elves blow themselves up in your city, you're going to have some involvement. This doesn't mean DMs are centering things around your character. Just the area you play in.

I'd appreciate if this thread can stay on topic and people stop making assumptions about favouritism or being 'priviledged'. Making accusations towards fellow players was not to point of asking people's opinion on this.

Sorry, no. I feel like you missed what I meant when it comes to a privileged position in my post. I wasn't specifically calling you out, though I can see where you got that notion. I think there are several people who my post would easily apply to. Some posting in this thread, others entirely not. I don't mean privilege as a sense of DM favoritism. I mean access to plot. I'll use Thomas as an example since we're already here. You've built your character into a position where he has been in the center ring of leadership of a major (If not the major) settlement on the server for over a year. With positions that do create ease of access to DM plots. I can appreciate you saying you push plot on to other players for them to have a chance to shine. I think we would all expect similar from a character in a position like yours to create roleplay for others. But you and others with similar positions have built your characters into roles/reputations where you no longer need to fight for the limelight when DM plots roll through, but rather the roleplay comes looking for your input. To say you're not involved in DM plots is akin to saying that the Quarterback of (insert favorite american football team) isn't part of the offensive team because they're not a lineman. You probably do a great job of calling shots, keeping a distance, and giving other players opportunities to shine in DM plots. But that's a position you've built for yourself. To call fatigue against DM plots on the turn around to me sounds more like you should let others have that position for a while to unburden yourself. But hey, maybe you have. But that's why my post didn't call any one person out.

In so far as events having lag, that's a problem for both DM events and player events. Pointing a finger at DM event lag doesn't really speak to the same issue on the other side of the fence, aside from social events being more palatable because lag vs chatbox isn't as annoying as lag vs hellball.

To your last point, you made a feedback thread about DM plot fatigue. This is my opinion as a player who feels no fatigue. I'm not accusing people of favoritism, I'm simply pointing out that the fatigue can come from character position/involvement, more than actual density of DM plot across the entire server. Assuming my opinion is just an accusation toward you simply isn't what it is. Aragorn probably felt a lot of DM plot fatigue because he had to chew through every major plot in each movie. Merry Brandybuck got to enjoy salted pork after watching the Ents destroy Isengard for him.

[What Fate Awaits]

I'd just gotten involved in the Elemental Crowns story and was super excited for it... only to have it end two days later because the DM went Inactive. My chief grumble here isn't against the original DM, because life happens, but that there doesn't seem to be any sort of system in place to continue these mega-plots.

Yes, I can hand-wave aside what should've been a special moment in my own PC's story and just conveniently accept that it all mysteriously ended off-screen. But reading over the replies here, it seems like there's a trend of starting big things that ultimately go unfinished, and I feel that's something that should be addressed, because resolution is important in story-telling.

I'd prefer smaller, shorter, more personal interactions scattered across a multitude of players, factions, and regions rather than another lengthy round of "oh no Cordor's doomed!"

[D4wN]

Sorry, no. I feel like you missed what I meant when it comes to a privileged position in my post. I wasn't specifically calling you out, though I can see where you got that notion.

My apologies then for misinterpreting.

But you and others with similar positions have built your characters into roles/reputations where you no longer need to fight for the limelight when DM plots roll through, but rather the roleplay comes looking for your input.

So this part I am so very very passionate on. I believe that when your character has reached a certain reputation where people seek you out for counsel and advise and grant you the opportunity to be involved in plots, be they player or DM driven, then as an established character, a person with an (for lack of better words) epic reputation, you should put others in the lime light or at least try to. You've already had your moments to shine. You already made your mark. Everyone knows who you are, they know what you achieved. There is no need to barrel over other people still trying to make their mark or never had an opportunity to. My request to fellow players with long-term well established characters is simply not to take the lead and try to facilitate opportunities for others. That's not to say you should or could never be involved in a plot and that you should never be the center of attention. But to be more mindful that the great Gandalf the Grey is there as a guide for the nobody Hobbits to take them to Mount Doom. Be more like Gandalf.

To say you're not involved in DM plots is akin to saying that the Quarterback of (insert favorite american football team) isn't part of the offensive team because they're not a lineman. You probably do a great job of calling shots, keeping a distance, and giving other players opportunities to shine in DM plots. But that's a position you've built for yourself. To call fatigue against DM plots on the turn around to me sounds more like you should let others have that position for a while to unburden yourself. But hey, maybe you have. But that's why my post didn't call any one person out.

I always do yes. My fatigue doesn't come from being the person everyone comes to for counsel or having to call the shots because others don't want to, my fatigue comes largely from the impact these plots have on the whole server at the time. Be it to detract from player stories or events, the huge lag or the fact that settlements are drained, empty and lifeless because everyone is hanging out where the action is. Having this happen once or twice a year is no issue. But this year it's felt constant. I know of many people who've shelved or are playing other games because it's gotten too much.

In so far as events having lag, that's a problem for both DM events and player events. Pointing a finger at DM event lag doesn't really speak to the same issue on the other side of the fence, aside from social events being more palatable because lag vs chatbox isn't as annoying as lag vs hellball.

This thread was never about pointing fingers at anyone. It was about gauging whether others felt the same and perhaps brainstorm solutions or provide collective constructive feedback. I'm definitely not blaming DMs for sacrificing their free time to try and entertain us and I commend them as I know full well how much effort it takes on the DM side as well to run plots.

For what it's worth, I hate mass PVP as well for the lag it causes.

To your last point, you made a feedback thread about DM plot fatigue. This is my opinion as a player who feels no fatigue. I'm not accusing people of favoritism, I'm simply pointing out that the fatigue can come from character position/involvement, more than actual density of DM plot across the entire server. Assuming my opinion is just an accusation toward you simply isn't what it is. Aragorn probably felt a lot of DM plot fatigue because he had to chew through every major plot in each movie. Merry Brandybuck got to enjoy salted pork after watching the Ents destroy Isengard for him.

Which is all nice in theory, but if many of these plots directly affect the settlement you play in, whether you are a leader or not, it affects you. Cordor alone has had 3 major plots this year: The Rot Cube/Plague/Eldreth Veluuthra, Ssaerth and the Weatherstone. These aren't things that you can just kick back and eat salted pork if they happen in your own backyard unfortunately.

[In passion, patience]

I'm writing this from the perspective of a Underdark player as that's what I'm primarily. What little the Underdark gets in terms of DM events definitely serves to increase their appeal when they do come. Sometimes, waiting for a DM event isn't enough and certain characters (usually settlement leaders) will bring up their storyline ideas, and with proper DM support, Andunor gets the opportunity to immerse itself in a plotline however long it lasts. In my personal opinion, this fatigue that's being spoken of is almost uniquely shared by players who predominantly play on the Surface. To that end, these DM events, when they do happen, are incredibly fun. I'll share my own experience with the Rendannath plotline (spearheaded by the Devil's Table and shared among the other districts of Andunor.)

In terms of feedback - unanimously positive for the players who main Underdark characters, and mixed, if not negative for those who main Surface characters. At the time, I didn't realise why the plotline didn't sell that well to the Surface players -- until I realised (among other unrelated things) that the players had gone through Ssaerth, Moander's Rot and the Weatherstone Crisis nearly back-to-back.

To that end, I'd recommend that DM events, especially the community/settlement-wide kind, be more evenly distributed between Surface and Underdark, and in a way that doesn't necessarily need to include the other. While the Surface is on cooldown from its own Island-shattering event, the Underdark could very well be enjoying, say, the wrath of a paladin order, mass slave revolts, a continuation to the Illithid threat - so on, so forth. By rotating between settlements/communities/servers, you'll be able to avoid, or at least mitigate this tiredness that's being spoken of.

Lastly, I'm very thankful that the DMs appear to truly be taking player-led prompts and storylines seriously wherever possible. I had almost zero expectations for what concerns Rendannath and came out thoroughly satisfied by how engaged and easygoing the DMs were in their handling of it. To that end, I'd like to see more DM involvement in bolstering player agency and player-led storylines! Let the villains (or heroes!) that'll shape and alter the island be of the community's own making!

[Sincra]

Would rather we just had a year or two without a dm event that involves more than 10 people at a time in any facet.

[Dovesong]

Would rather we just had a year or two without a dm event that involves more than 10 people at a time in any facet.

Speaking to my SOUL.

[KriegEternal]

Im not gonna lie i've not really been a part of any and im level 27 now... I've seen parts of the crown related one and the Undead one but never been directly involved in anything major. so the idea of plot fatigue doesn't really apply to me as i haven't seen any action... I probably speak just for myself but still... Would be nice to see them myself even if what is currently happening is seen as to many...

[Edens_Fall]

First, I want to express my appreciation to the DMs who put their time and energy into running events and addressing player requests. Your dedication truly enhances the experience for everyone - thank you so much!

If I were to offer a suggestion, it would be to see a bit more focus on more minor, individual, faction, guild, and settlement event requests over the more prominent island-wide storylines. Both types are, of course, welcome and add incredible depth, but some of my most enjoyable experiences with DMs have been during events where they supported a faction's specific storyline or helped advance unique plots. Events around the Minmir Church over the past two years and smaller plots based on Sibayad's lore are great examples from my own knowledge.

I feel that many smaller groups of players have incredible ideas and unique plots that often need a little DM support to progress. It could be a one-off event, like retrieving a powerful artifact, negotiating with a devil, bribing a corrupt politician, or even hunting down a significant NPC target. While many players thrive on creating their own stories, there are times when a DM's help can breathe life into these smaller, lesser-known stories that may go unnoticed on the broader island stage. Your support is invaluable in making these unique narratives come to life, enriching our community's storytelling in so many wonderful ways.

I also want to recognize the incredible work already being done! So many DMs are already deeply involved in supporting smaller plots, often behind the scenes, allowing stories to unfold quietly yet meaningfully. It's a joy to see these interactions happening all across Arelith, sometimes utterly unbeknownst to the larger community, and I hope that focus on small-scale plots continues to be a priority, even as larger plots take place.

Please continue the awesome effort you put into DMing, and don't consider any of this feedback to be criticism! We know you do what you do to have fun as well. We love seeing what stories you want to craft for us while helping us all craft our own.

Thank you!

[Ork]

It's always felt like at the core of arelith, players drive the story. They're in the steering wheel and often careen into other players driving. We all have the ability to create roleplay and in the past that's usually 99% of the roleplay you would receive.

We are our own agents of content creation and any one of us can spawn a server-wide debacle at any given time. That's cool as hell. DM quests often circumvent that natural player-led process of building tension. Instead it's BANG BOOM KABOOM so many people coming out of the woodworks vying for attention.

We've added new players and the server is massive. It bears reminding that anything the DMs can do, we can do better. Truly. Any player can commit to an action that draws praise or ridicule and we can get a serious event going that's authentically player driven. Those events bear a lot more heavily on the collective conscious than any DM quest. I couldn't even tell you what true outcomes happened from the crown arc other than initiatives from players to keep the roleplay going.

All that to say, if you want to participate in a DM quest, do one better and start rabble rousing to get player buy-in. It's a better experience, imo.

[Ruzuke]

I disagree 100%.

The narrative control in the hands of a small group of players who often coordinate with each other on an IC (as well as an OOC on discord level) is not fun. It turns the game to a place where those in power remain in power.

Not to harp on anyone or any particular group in playing a Half-Orc half the island told me I should join the Tuskians a private PC faction at a faction locked location instead of just having my own half-orc adventures and RP with friends.

Want to be a Mage, join the tower and work for a select group of PCs who can decide if you get to join in the plot and fun of magic.

Want to join a settlement? Join a group of select PCs who can kick you out make your life more difficult.

Settlements and Factions can and do travel to other areas to kill and impose their will on PCs who are outside of their area.

I enjoy DM plots because I can be a part of a story that does not rely on being one of the chosen PCs, selected by by other chosen PCs to be allowed to participate in a storyline. In a DM plot if a chosen PC doesn't like what I am doing... well tough cookies there are more powerful forces than them that allows it to go on. I can also get a lot more stories outside of I don't like , X said outrageous thing, X posted about something.

A lot of player driven seems a lot of HS mean girl RP and I avoided that in high school and do not want to spend my free time RPing that now. So I welcome any and all DM plots. I am not looking to change the world just have a fun journey.

[Ork]

A lot of player driven seems a lot of HS mean girl RP and I avoided that in high school and do not want to spend my free time RPing that now. So I welcome any and all DM plots. I am not looking to change the world just have a fun journey.

This is only true if you're avataring. Dissociating yourself from your character requires constant pervasive action on the part of the player, and is certainly a learned skill. Once you achieve it, actions that happen to your character are tools for you as a player to deepen a story.

[TheDoctor]

I disagree 100%.

Not to harp on anyone or any particular group in playing a Half-Orc half the island told me I should join the Tuskians a private PC faction at a faction locked location instead of just having my own half-orc adventures and RP with friends.

Scuse me what? Just cause people are telling you IC'ly that you should go check out a place doesnt mean you have to. All that means is that group has done the work and became popular. It in no way means you MUST. There are plenty of Half-Orcs running around the island to RP with that arent anyways. Nobody stops you from having your own Half-Orc adventures. Thats like saying a paladin cant have any paladin adventures without being a member of radiant. Or a druid not in the Heartwood, etc etc etc ad nauseam.

Baaaaaad example mate.

[Ruzuke]

I disagree 100%.

Not to harp on anyone or any particular group in playing a Half-Orc half the island told me I should join the Tuskians a private PC faction at a faction locked location instead of just having my own half-orc adventures and RP with friends.

Scuse me what? Just cause people are telling you IC'ly that you should go check out a place doesnt mean you have to. All that means is that group has done the work and became popular. It in no way means you MUST. There are plenty of Half-Orcs running around the island to RP with that arent anyways. Nobody stops you from having your own Half-Orc adventures. Thats like saying a paladin cant have any paladin adventures without being a member of radiant. Or a druid not in the Heartwood, etc etc etc ad nauseam.

Baaaaaad example mate.

Your example of a response is exactly why DM plots are needed.

Dismissive opinionated, and the example of what you consider is best is the only thing that exists. If it happened ICly it would be fine, however this is an OOC example. The strawman examples likewise. It is the attempt to turn opinion to fact and berate people who do different.

With a DM led storylines this does not always happen. Events may be based off what is occurring, however in my experience in requests, follow ups, in a DM plot I can take action and have some player agency. In a player driven plot it is: Talk to my friends, my inner circle, and ICly told any idea is "baaaaaad" because someone who played 10 years ago tried it and failed so it should go to PC group X.

[TheDoctor]

I disagree 100%.

Not to harp on anyone or any particular group in playing a Half-Orc half the island told me I should join the Tuskians a private PC faction at a faction locked location instead of just having my own half-orc adventures and RP with friends.

Scuse me what? Just cause people are telling you IC'ly that you should go check out a place doesnt mean you have to. All that means is that group has done the work and became popular. It in no way means you MUST. There are plenty of Half-Orcs running around the island to RP with that arent anyways. Nobody stops you from having your own Half-Orc adventures. Thats like saying a paladin cant have any paladin adventures without being a member of radiant. Or a druid not in the Heartwood, etc etc etc ad nauseam.

Baaaaaad example mate.

Your example of a response is exactly why DM plots are needed.

Dismissive opinionated, and the example of what you consider is best is the only thing that exists. If it happened ICly it would be fine, however this is an OOC example. The strawman examples likewise. It is the attempt to turn opinion to fact and berate people who do different.

With a DM led storylines this does not always happen. Events may be based off what is occurring, however in my experience in requests, follow ups, in a DM plot I can take action and have some player agency. In a player driven plot it is: Talk to my friends, my inner circle, and ICly told any idea is "baaaaaad" because someone who played 10 years ago tried it and failed so it should go to PC group X.

Your response here makes zero sense. You literally tried to say...

I cant play a half-orc and have RP cause there is a faction with half-orcs in it that people say I should go talk to.

the heck does a half-orc player faction have to do with you playing a half-orc and rp'ing? Nothing at all. Zero.

[Cthuletta]

I disagree 100%.

Not to harp on anyone or any particular group in playing a Half-Orc half the island told me I should join the Tuskians a private PC faction at a faction locked location instead of just having my own half-orc adventures and RP with friends.

Scuse me what? Just cause people are telling you IC'ly that you should go check out a place doesnt mean you have to. All that means is that group has done the work and became popular. It in no way means you MUST. There are plenty of Half-Orcs running around the island to RP with that arent anyways. Nobody stops you from having your own Half-Orc adventures. Thats like saying a paladin cant have any paladin adventures without being a member of radiant. Or a druid not in the Heartwood, etc etc etc ad nauseam.

Baaaaaad example mate.

Your example of a response is exactly why DM plots are needed.

Dismissive opinionated, and the example of what you consider is best is the only thing that exists. If it happened ICly it would be fine, however this is an OOC example. The strawman examples likewise. It is the attempt to turn opinion to fact and berate people who do different.

With a DM led storylines this does not always happen. Events may be based off what is occurring, however in my experience in requests, follow ups, in a DM plot I can take action and have some player agency. In a player driven plot it is: Talk to my friends, my inner circle, and ICly told any idea is "baaaaaad" because someone who played 10 years ago tried it and failed so it should go to PC group X.

That's not really what they're trying to convey. Even if an OOC recommendation of "Hey check these people out!", they're making it known there's a place you can get involved with to have fun with other people. No-one is forcing you to join them, they're just being inclusive which is generally a GOOD thing?
I have no idea how this connects to DM plots or the frequency of them. If you enjoy them because you find the story easier to get involved in, that's perfectly fine! Players offering/recommending a path of RP for your character has nothing to do with that.

[Marsi]

I disagree 100%.

The narrative control in the hands of a small group of players who often coordinate with each other on an IC (as well as an OOC on discord level) is not fun. It turns the game to a place where those in power remain in power.

The worst social entrenchment I've ever seen on PWs was on servers that were animated largely by DM plots. Which is to say almost every other server other than Arelith, because while you're entitled to your views that DM plots > player agency, you realise you've managed to find yourself on the one server that is all about player agency and not about DM plots?

[Ruzuke]

What player agency?

Can any of the settlements change their laws?
Can any settlements or groups declare war on one another?
For the embassies suddenly open up in each city go through a player approval process?

Every monster being forced into the UD despite racial lore, deities in conflict with one another, have a choice?
If me and 30 other players all decide to make our own faction, RP building a small shack in the woods, could we make Ft. Hobo and create our own laws?
Can players go to the ship builder and make our own boats to sail funding it with our millions of gold?

No this server does not have player agency. We have storylines in our own small RP circles and a power sharing structure which keeps those in IC power there able to pass it on to the next person once it is their turn. The only real agency is players can exile and PVP who they want at will. Making a RP change is an internal minor issue which can happen on every server.

Arelith is still a fun game, but there is no player agency and instead of being locked out private player plots I like the chance to be involved in DM plots. Even if it takes the spotlight off players cliques.

[Eira]

Can any of the settlements change their laws?

Yes

Can any settlements or groups declare war on one another?

Yes

For the embassies suddenly open up in each city go through a player approval process?

Yes, people can, in fact, establish a quarter as an embassy through the other player government.

Every monster being forced into the UD despite racial lore, deities in conflict with one another, have a choice?

This is part of the monster code of conduct, which every monster player agrees to, but even then, there are places they can go, and ways it can be done that still remain in-line with server setting.

If me and 30 other players all decide to make our own faction, RP building a small shack in the woods, could we make Ft. Hobo and create our own laws?

Yes, that is how Greyhammer was created.

Can players go to the ship builder and make our own boats to sail funding it with our millions of gold?

No, but that is a limitation on dev-work and trying to encourage players to work together, rather than every single sailor having their own dinghy to never interact with others on.

[D4wN]

What player agency?

Can any of the settlements change their laws?
Can any settlements or groups declare war on one another?
For the embassies suddenly open up in each city go through a player approval process?

Every monster being forced into the UD despite racial lore, deities in conflict with one another, have a choice?
If me and 30 other players all decide to make our own faction, RP building a small shack in the woods, could we make Ft. Hobo and create our own laws?
Can players go to the ship builder and make our own boats to sail funding it with our millions of gold?

No this server does not have player agency. We have storylines in our own small RP circles and a power sharing structure which keeps those in IC power there able to pass it on to the next person once it is their turn. The only real agency is players can exile and PVP who they want at will. Making a RP change is an internal minor issue which can happen on every server.

Arelith is still a fun game, but there is no player agency and instead of being locked out private player plots I like the chance to be involved in DM plots. Even if it takes the spotlight off players cliques.

Cordor's entire Legal Codex is player created. Settlements can go to war, it just needs to follow the relevant processes. Guldorand's Magistrates just issued a bunch of new laws. Andunor frequently has civil wars.

Arelith is 100% a player driven module. 90% of plots are player created. It takes time, effort and investment to get into people's RP circle and experience people's personal plots and a genuine show of interest in their stories. I've gone years without ever being involved in a DM plot and not be bored for a second. As for building your own ships, no. You can't. But there are plenty of ships you can rent and go out sailing with your buddies as much as you want.

[Cthuletta]

What player agency?

Can any of the settlements change their laws?
Can any settlements or groups declare war on one another?
For the embassies suddenly open up in each city go through a player approval process?

Every monster being forced into the UD despite racial lore, deities in conflict with one another, have a choice?
If me and 30 other players all decide to make our own faction, RP building a small shack in the woods, could we make Ft. Hobo and create our own laws?
Can players go to the ship builder and make our own boats to sail funding it with our millions of gold?

No this server does not have player agency. We have storylines in our own small RP circles and a power sharing structure which keeps those in IC power there able to pass it on to the next person once it is their turn. The only real agency is players can exile and PVP who they want at will. Making a RP change is an internal minor issue which can happen on every server.

Arelith is still a fun game, but there is no player agency and instead of being locked out private player plots I like the chance to be involved in DM plots. Even if it takes the spotlight off players cliques.

Aside from the ships (those take DM involvement since it's a mechanical/module addition)... yes, you can do all of those. I have seen all of those done in my playtime of about 3-4 years, INCLUDING the ships. Arelith by far has the most player agency of any of the multiple servers I have played on in NWN, double for MMOs. Wars between settlements and creation of laws are probably the most common, I see those all the time without any DM involvement at all.