Raw power of Flameborns.

[Scurvy Cur]

[
I didn't mean it that way at all.

Then I apologize for misunderstanding and my tone, however there are key arguments that have been used (not necessarily by you) that immersion is broken or that the server is somehow less fun because of the existence of infinite casting, which is perception based and not a shared truth.

Making it less accessible and more difficult to play pure casting characters would be a complete step backwards.

Perhaps from an individual player standpoint. From a module design standpoint, it would be a step forward, or at least towards resolving a core balance quandary: how do you make pve content appropriate for both Vancian and Cooldown spellcasters?

It's probably the biggest balance issue brought about by infinite casters, and after their introduction, many spawns across the module were dramatically buffed to withstand infinite casters (most notably TFs). Saves went up across the board, more critters were added that will fight into darkness, HP got heavily buffed, etc. all in an effort to make content challenging for infinite casters. Unfortunately, it directly harmed the ability of vancian casters, most notably wizards, to do more than buff and summon for extended pve, since little else makes a meaningful and efficient use of their slots. Buffing the Vancian classes isn't really an option, because, with the notable exception of Druid, they're mostly towards the top of the balance heap already. Nerfing the mobs puts infinite casters back on cruise control.

This, I believe, is the core of what SM is getting at with reference to the balance difficulties posed by infinite casters, and why balance of the module would be easier if they were gone.

[Amineh123]

That's the real problem. If there was some way to get around spending a quarter of every hour searching for a place to rest, resting, rebuffing, and waiting for everyone who got bored of the exercise and went AFK, we wouldn't need infinite casters at all. I have work in the morning. Ain't nobody got time for that.

I agree. But as you can see:

Amineh123 wrote:
Honestly, a wizard or sorcerer or cleric etc. be much more enjoyable comparing to TF if there was an option to rest, without healing for example, but only to recover spells and special abilities. F.e. you don't recover anything else (hp, rest indicator %) only get your 'weapons' back.
And you can rest anytime, of course outside of battle and foes.

Imbalanced.

Not everyone likes the idea.
I do though.

[Astral]

But... That's how D&D rules work since the dawn of the 70s. You need to rest to refresh your spells as a caster. Arelith as a server survived very well, for many years without infi casters and no body got bored because there's always room to RP and add your character's input to whatever the party is going through.

If you want the luxury of having mage in your party, to buff your WMs who rekt everything in the frontline, you have to make adjustments. Most mages aren't very strong and the same health shape of a seasoned warrior and they require more breaks. Make a fire camp, tell a story even. Adjust to the situation. It will only be boring if your interest is only in grinding exp. Infi casters would be a very cheap way around it. I only like them because they are much weaker than vanilla casters, in late game because of the cooldowns. Arelith used to be a low-magic environment. I believe it still is? Casters should be considered special and harder to execute for the player/party.

[triaddraykin]

My character, Angela Amana, has been around since day one of Flameborns. I and another person came up with the WORD flameborn (I am so sorry, I cannot remember your name anymore, it's been five years).

I've seen a ton of FB builds. People seem obligated to run them by me, as I do present myself as sort of an authority on them. I've seen hundreds of flameborn characters, as (on the surface anyways) they often get directed to the Eldest Flameborn.

And a lot of them disappear in their teen levels or so. I've pondered on this a fair bit, and watched for a pattern.... and it's so so often the people who ask about their build, or rebuild and relevel as they decide they're unhappy, or any such thing... that tend to disappear. Not all, but many, enough to take note of.

My... point, my theory, is this... Flameborn is an inflexible class. There's only so much you can do with it, and your path is, with some deviations, pretty much set.

And the people who embrace that are the ones I see make it to epic levels, who enjoy the class the most... because they can just RP and not worry about all of that.

Angela is mechanically broken. Angela loses almost every straight PvP fight. She makes it through PVE setups because she has a lot of CON gear and can heal 80 at a time, and that helps her support her group as well... If she doesn't have that group, she's gonna have a lot of trouble. Even as an epic, she's totally dependent on others...

And gods damn it, she's the most fun character I've ever had. Her power set is as simple as a fighter, she can do it or she cant, and the rest is roleplay. My WM/Rogue/Fighter, my shadowdancer with HiPS, my Weave Master, even my old Wizard.... Sit and gather dust, because while they are mechanically neat to play, I don't play Arelith for the mechanics. If I want mechanics, I'll play any other number of games out there. But it's not giving a hoot about the mechanics of a fame, and writing a story together, that makes Arelith interesting... and in my simple-classed flameborn, that's what I get. And I love it.

[The Rambling Midget]

Not everyone likes the idea.
I do though.

Not everyone likes that idea. There's more than one way to skin a cat. We just have to find the right one.

Arelith used to be a low-magic environment.

I believe it used to be a much higher magic environment, until the Valtheran age.

[Jagel]

^^ Yes, much more high magic. Cloak of regeneration was a low-mid lvl accessory for instance. By lvl 15 you'd have +4 gear.

[Cortex]

As TRM/Scurvy/SM said, TF/Weavemaster/Warlock caused a massive inflation in PvE powercreep, they were strong before and they're stronger now in order to be able to counter infinite casting, but that hurts wizards, clerics and sorcerers much more than it does infinite casters.

Using save based spells in epic dungeons is unheard of nowadays, a lot of mobs have large DR or immunity to elemental or magic damage, their HP is STACKED so each spell is less impacting.

I've no doubt that if TF/Weavemaster were changed or removed, the server would benefit much more in the long run. Warlock has its own niche (summons decrease EXP by a lot and fey can't solo too well even it out), and even then its still tweaked constantly.

[Nitro]

Arelith is most certainly not low magic, it never has been. We're on an island that gets frequent undead/demon/devil invasions, filled with strange portals to everywhere and magical creatures out the wazoo.

It is however, low-magic in the terms of available magic items, with +3 and the occasional +4 artefact being the highest available.

[The Rambling Midget]

I've no doubt that if TF/Weavemaster were changed or removed, the server would benefit much more in the long run.

Weavemaster, though? Is it really that powerful? I played one, and it's certainly less powerful than Warlock for soloing. When in a party with competent players, I get to drop maybe one mid level bomb per mob, but if I use something high level, it's more like one shot every other mob. I found it to be pretty well balanced for damage output, compared to a well played sword swinger, and the cooldown was enough of a hassle to prevent excessive buffing.

Honestly, if I were to blame anything for the current situation, it would be the ease of access to buffs via wands, scrolls, and potions. Having those raining from the sky is what necessitated the introduction of infinite casters in the first place. Vancian casters can't keep up with that.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Then you rest, if you can, and repeat it all over.

That's the real problem. If there was some way to get around spending a quarter of every hour searching for a place to rest, resting, rebuffing, and waiting for everyone who got bored of the exercise and went AFK, we wouldn't need infinite casters at all. I have work in the morning. Ain't nobody got time for that.

Traditional casters just can't follow the flow of a PW.

I've never had a hard time finding a place to rest while playing Astarial. The problem I did have while leveling him up (twice ) was that before level 15 or so, a small amount of spells plus a high frequency of spawns on a trip meant that even if you started with 12% rest meter you would eventually no longer be able to rest when you needed to in order to provide continued support to your party. Time to crack out the whiskey!

As a specialist with no conjuration spells (and having 'grown up' during an era where 'familiars are not meant for combat') this was crippling at late night/early morning hours, when finding people in your level range who are trying to do the same thing as you becomes challenging.

But after level 15, it was never more difficult than 'let's backtrack a little bit, put our backs to something, set up watch, and refresh ourselves.' Unless something significant had recently happened and the party needed to RP based around it during 'downtime', this was always achievable in under two minutes, including the process of re-buffing.

[The Rambling Midget]

this was always achievable in under two minutes, including the process of re-buffing.

That would be a dream come true. It's always been like herding cats for me.

[Cortex]

Weavemaster ruins early to mid balance, not in PvP, but PvE.

...also, wands, scrolls, potions? They aren't nowhere near as useful as a TFer in a party, save for the mandatory clarity potion.

[Astral]

Let me clarify. When I say low magic environment I'm taking comparison to vanilla nwn and other servers with MUCH /MUCH/ stronger gear options for warrior classes. Arelith haven't been high magic environment since, at least, late 2005 when I joined (Mount Valtheran already existed, yes). In the past 11 years, for most of them, Weavers didn't exist.

Another thing I want to point out. Weavers take a lot longer time to buff a party due to cooldowns and with all the dispelling mobs added BECAUSE of the weave master's existence, rebuffing need to happen a lot more often then in the era of no infi-casters. So in a way, there's a lot more "boring" down-time in the adventure with weavers than there was before.

[Cortex]

Weavemasters are not overpowered or even good, they do dumb down PvE, is the point.

[yellowcateyes]

PvE balance suffers from the co-existence of Vancian casters and infinite casters. Balancing for one or the other exclusively wouldn't be a major issue.

For example, spawns made to challenge the infinite CCs and firepower of a warlock or a TF would end up giving traditional casters few options other than summons and buffs. Any kind of dungeon designed to give a Weavemaster trouble (read: dispels at every corner) would likely be extremely un-fun for a normal wizard or sorcerer.

Similarly, if spawns and dungeons were designed to give wizards/sorcs a chance to shine outside of buffing and boss-nuking, then infinite casters would turn those dungeons into farmville.

The dev team should make a decision whether to fully accommodate infinite-casting as a playstyle or not. If yes, then give Vancian spellcasters more sustainability in PvE and just balance around that. Otherwise, the infinite-casters should see a redesign.

[Astral]

Not all infi casters, I hope. Only weavers really shift the PvE sphere. Maybe feylocks too, a bit. Warlocks and TFs are hard enough to lvl as is and they don't effect the needed challenge rating for PvE, I think. And favoured souls are more melee than anything and they're not related to these problems at all. It's the weavers who make everything so easy for a party to cut through, and thus the entire server's mob's strength being raised accordingly.

[FullMetalTuna]

TF is a poorly designed class.

Concur with those that say that elementals won't fit them (from a mechanical thematic), though they really do need an overhaul if they're to fit in with Arelith's environment.

I disagree. I think they already fit.

[DreamOfCream]

I think if we addressed the outrageously high saving throws in epic dungeons and the constant dispelling, we would be off to a good start.

To keep Weavemasters and Feylocks in check we've given creatures huge saves. In the process, the vast amount of disabling spells a wizard/sorc has have become obsolete in epic levels. The same logic applies to dispels.

I think by removing Weavemasters as a path but grandfathering the old characters is not a terrible idea. Changing Feylocks' spellbook while allowing existing characters to keep their spells would be a good idea too.

Eventually, much like planetouched races, these classes will fade from existence. Addressing DPS disparity goes far beyond TF/Wizards. As for right now, its fairly boring/painful/slow to level without the help of a TF, Warlock or WM. I think fixing that (if it needs to be fixed) will be a much bigger task.

[DreamOfCream]

I think if we addressed the outrageously high saving throws in epic dungeons and the constant dispelling, we would be off to a good start.

To keep Weavemasters and Feylocks in check we've given creatures huge saves. In the process, the vast amount of disabling spells a wizard/sorc has have become obsolete. The same logic applies to dispels.

I think by removing Weavemasters as a path but grandfathering the old characters is not a terrible idea. Changing Feylocks' spellbook while allowing existing characters to keep their spells would be a good idea too.

Eventually, much like planetouched races, these classes will fade from existence. Addressing DPS disparity goes far beyond TF/Wizards. As for right now, its fairly boring/painful/slow to level without the help of a TF, Warlock or WM. I think fixing that (if it needs to be fixed) will be a much bigger task.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

The dev team should make a decision whether to fully accommodate infinite-casting as a playstyle or not. If yes, then give Vancian spellcasters more sustainability in PvE and just balance around that.

Do you have any ideas on how we would achieve that? I know the community has spoken ad nauseum about giving wizards and sorcerers more "toys", but do you think there needs to be hard mechanical changes to the classes beyond an extra feat, or a free cookie?

I think this option is far more likely than redesigning four paths - weave master, warlock, true flame, and favoured soul. I throw the last one in there because I also think it has significantly altered the hybrid caster/gish builds of the server.

[yellowcateyes]

The dev team should make a decision whether to fully accommodate infinite-casting as a playstyle or not. If yes, then give Vancian spellcasters more sustainability in PvE and just balance around that.

Do you have any ideas on how we would achieve that? I know the community has spoken ad nauseum about giving wizards and sorcerers more "toys", but do you think there needs to be hard mechanical changes to the classes beyond an extra feat, or a free cookie?

I actually think arcane casters already have some of the best toys and RP cookies on the server. I've also never been fond of the idea of throwing people cookies in exchange for them being miserable throughout most mechanical content; doing so just distracts from the unsolved issue.

In any case, some random ideas:

- Infinite castings of weaker spell variants, depending on whether you have the actual spell slotted. For example, a wizard with firebrand or fireball slotted could cast a much-weaker version of a fire spell infinitely. Or a disable with weak DCs so long as confuse/daze/etc. is slotted. A wizard can still plan out his spellbook to suit the situation, and will have something to do until the point where he needs the full power of his prepared spells.

- A non-rest way to recuperate spent spells, allowing an arcanist to solo. This could be an activated mode, like praying, that can only take place outside combat and is interruptible.

Currently, a soloing wizard is all about shuffling along behind a buffed-up summon, very occasionally lobbing a spell, while suffering the vicissitudes of summon AI and praying that a disconnect doesn't rob you of your summon mid-dungeon. It's not exactly riveting stuff. Anything that gives Vancian mages more sustainability and versatility in PvE content would be quite welcome, especially if said content is to be balanced around infinite-casters.

[Cortex]

@Astral

Fiend warlock is the easiest class to solo with, fey warlock+any melee is XP train, TF+any tank is XP train.

When fey warlock gets haste, they're a powerhouse by themselves.

[Mr_Rieper]

My character, Angela Amana, has been around since day one of Flameborns. I and another person came up with the WORD flameborn (I am so sorry, I cannot remember your name anymore, it's been five years).

Was it... Flameborn perhaps?

Seriously it is a wonder he hasn't commented on this thread yet. Where is that guy.

[Flameborn]

My character, Angela Amana, has been around since day one of Flameborns. I and another person came up with the WORD flameborn (I am so sorry, I cannot remember your name anymore, it's been five years).

Was it... Flameborn perhaps?

Seriously it is a wonder he hasn't commented on this thread yet. Where is that guy.

Nope, I had nothing to do with true flames, always thought they were far too limited.

[triaddraykin]

My character, Angela Amana, has been around since day one of Flameborns. I and another person came up with the WORD flameborn (I am so sorry, I cannot remember your name anymore, it's been five years).

Was it... Flameborn perhaps?

Seriously it is a wonder he hasn't commented on this thread yet. Where is that guy.

Nope, I had nothing to do with true flames, always thought they were far too limited.

Guessing it had something more to do with playing a dragon.