Arelith

Posted: **Fri May 05, 2017 6:19 pm**

Trunx wrote: It means your argument is entirely hypothetical and the scenario you describe hasn't actually happened. In my view, that means it doesn't have much weight as an argument why the death penalties are a bad thing.

Doesn't change the fact that if you're corpse bashed, you literally cannot do anything such as PvE.

Your friends are going out hunting, too bad you got corpse bashed. You can't do anything. But at least you have your str stat still. So you can. . .at least walk around.

And no, it doesn't make my argument entirely hypothetical. It means the rammifications of it are different than I originally conceived. If you cannot see the issue with a fighter having a penalty to constitution and dex, but their strength staying the same? Then please inform me how there is not an issue and someone with limited amount of time could actually just go hunting with their friends.

Trunx wrote:
Iceborn wrote:Trunx, what do you do when you get bashed?
Out of burning curiosity.
Never happened.

Then you've not experienced this and your point of view is invalid.

Posted: **Fri May 05, 2017 6:27 pm**

Seven Sons of Sin wrote: Why don't we let players choose instead?

What if you got ganked by a death squad unfairly, even amounting to a DM Report, so you choose Respawn Option #1?
What if you got accidentally murdered in friendly fire, which should have some consequence, but not put you out of the game, so you choose Respawn Option #2?
What if you die on the cliff by the sea in a storm in a duel with your arch-rival, and fell to your "death", so you choose Respawn Option #3?

We are going to keep circling back on these topics because people have too different of opinions, and each death is too unique. We should cease creating "catch all" death mechanic systems and instead create player-chosen respawn penalties as they see fit. If people abuse the system, oh well, that always happens, let the DMs go in. But mechanics of choice will at least reward players for their competence and their commitment to the story.

I think Seven has just given the best suggestion to this whole thing, and death on Arelith, that I have seen. Not only in this particular discussion, but ever since I've been here.

Giving the players options to play with and chose from could perhaps be the best balancing act one could hope for, and with the best results, on a roleplay server, where story is a priority. So death or injury should serve that priority above all else, encompassing as best as possible the infinite ammount of ways that those things can happen during the lifetime of a character, leaving it up to the player to decide just how badly it affected them, with mechanical support to help them portray it.

Speaking of roleplay, there's an argument I've seen repeated often and that I think needs to be adressed:

"PvP ganksquads and people exploiting the death system to push others out of the server or forcing them to stop playing."

If that has happened, is happening, or can happen, then I am sorry to say but the death system is not the issue nor should it be the focus of the discussion. In this case, the problem lies with the moraly inapt mouth breathers that clearly do not understand what Arelith is about and,thus, should not be allowed to be a part of it.

Posted: **Fri May 05, 2017 7:12 pm**

The biggest thing is why level thirties are, so often butchering poor hapless level tens for "no reason."

If that's true, and this kind of thing "happens more than you think" - why aren't reports to the DMs being filed?

edit:

Daedin wrote:...the death system is not the issue nor should it be the focus of the discussion...

Daedin took the words out of my mouth, in a manner of speaking.

Posted: **Fri May 05, 2017 7:21 pm**

Lol @ people saying death isn't supposed to matter. I guess nothing is supposed to matter at that rate. Why try and talk your way out of death, just fight at every chance because you'll just be back in five minutes anyways.

When you die you lose exp also, it sure doesn't make the game more fun being "punished" when you "die" but actions have consequences. Shouldn't get into conflicts that involve death all whilly nilly without a thought for your own well being "because you would just respawn."

Posted: **Fri May 05, 2017 9:00 pm**

For the suggestion thread: Put up the Skeleton Rattle Tattle Dance Hall in death! Kelemvor's all Star Bone Orchestra, with Jergal as special guest star, playing 24/7. Players will commit suicide to get there.

Posted: **Fri May 05, 2017 9:46 pm**

I have a question, since this discussion seems centered around PvP grief through corpse bashing... Why not just remove corpse bashing? Why is this a thing anyways?

I have been playing arelith for a long time, and I've never once, in the history of ever, corpse bashed. I've never seen a reason to. What possible rp is achieved through it? You get a skull? Woo. In exchange, you've knowingly ruined a players fun, any chance of future rp, and created an awkward situation when they return.

Granted, there would always be trash barrels even if the corpses were made immune to damage(weren't they a long time ago? Can't quite remember), but maybe a punishment for those who go out of their way to destroy a corpse.

Anyhoot, a suggestion until someone comes along and explains how corpse bashing helps rp.

Posted: **Fri May 05, 2017 11:10 pm**

BattleDrake wrote:I have a question, since this discussion seems centered around PvP grief through corpse bashing... Why not just remove corpse bashing? Why is this a thing anyways?

I have been playing arelith for a long time, and I've never once, in the history of ever, corpse bashed. I've never seen a reason to. What possible rp is achieved through it? You get a skull? Woo. In exchange, you've knowingly ruined a players fun, any chance of future rp, and created an awkward situation when they return.

Granted, there would always be trash barrels even if the corpses were made immune to damage(weren't they a long time ago? Can't quite remember), but maybe a punishment for those who go out of their way to destroy a corpse.

Anyhoot, a suggestion until someone comes along and explains how corpse bashing helps rp.

Bounty Hunters need evidence. As do assassins assassinating outside of the mechanical contract.

My argument against this, despite liking the idea of no corpse bashing, is that one can choose not to raise someone and leave them somewhere, i.e. a graveyard. It's effectively the same thing. Corpse bashing just lets you know that no one for sure is going to raise you.

Posted: **Fri May 05, 2017 11:49 pm**

I don't really mind the change. Most of my Arelith playtime was from when you lost thousands of XP on respawn, and could literally be corpsebashed into losing a level. Current penalties feel mild by comparison.

That said, I don't see the connection between a higher penalty for respawn and better roleplay surrounding death and dying. To the extent that we wanted to prevent awkward interactions with the recently-deceased, the 24-hour rule already existed.

I don't see the change causing people to treat death with any more reverence or significance than they did before. If people were inclined to do so, whether because of significant story development or personal playstyle, they would've done so without mechanical penalties. If people are not so inclined, no amount of debuff is going to get them to sit around and do cripple RP.

The only net result is more time spent on alts, or off-server.

Posted: **Sat May 06, 2017 12:13 am**

I definitely don't think removing the ability to corpse bash is the ultimate solution, but it might help. The argument for movement is actually one of the reasons I like the idea of no corpse bashing. Chances are, people saw the PvP encounter. Maybe friends/allies who wanted to help but couldn't because they would have died. Now your killer has to pick up and try and hide your body whilst avoiding being followed. This can lead to more rp for the killer and the victim and his/her allies.

Posted: **Sat May 06, 2017 1:20 am**

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Let me ask- how can we as a community consider any conflict that results in the death of and mutilation of said person's corpse multiple times over a 5-6 day period (one to two months IC) to be a serious conflict? In a conflict taken seriously, these people would not be getting up and running back out to the front lines. In a serious conflict, your slayer should not have to consider you again once they've slain you until the conclusion of the current conflict.

Any manner of conflict-based death conducted in any other method is automatically a case of trivial death.

To me, the expectation that you should be able to get back up and go back out and fight and die again in such a short period of time, with no negative repercussions for the character to make their life less convenient, is more than adequate justification to make death hurt a little more.

This sentiment is all well and good outside of the underdark, but in the underdark, there is one settlement. Just one. If you get killed, you WILL run into your killer again today, and tomorrow, and the next day, and the next, because just to play in andunor, you'll be rubbing shoulders with them. Thanks to the 24/hr rule, you will very likely end up getting killed by them again, and again, within the rules unless you rove around in a war party at all times. Thats just how war works. There is nowhere to go to sit out a conflict unless you stop logging in, and skirmishes are inevitable when you do log in.

This is a reality we have to play with, and why there is a great many people who advocate for there to be a second settlement for UD races that get 'exiled'. If you become persona-non-grata in andunor, you will get killed a lot, probably bashed, and if its by more than one faction working together, quite easily more than once in a day.

Posted: **Sat May 06, 2017 2:12 am**

Durvayas wrote:
This sentiment is all well and good outside of the underdark, but in the underdark, there is one settlement. Just one. If you get killed, you WILL run into your killer again today, and tomorrow, and the next day, and the next, because just to play in andunor, you'll be rubbing shoulders with them. Thanks to the 24/hr rule, you will very likely end up getting killed by them again, and again, within the rules unless you rove around in a war party at all times. Thats just how war works. There is nowhere to go to sit out a conflict unless you stop logging in, and skirmishes are inevitable when you do log in.

This is a reality we have to play with, and why there is a great many people who advocate for there to be a second settlement for UD races that get 'exiled'. If you become persona-non-grata in andunor, you will get killed a lot, probably bashed, and if its by more than one faction working together, quite easily more than once in a day.

In addition to this, consider that the underdark had a number of high yield dungeons that attract excursions from the surface. Oftentimes, these are not characters that are cozy with the creepy crawlies of the Underdark.

And I'm sorry, but most of these interactions I've see (from both sides of the water table) end in a good old bashing, or abandonment of a corpse where its not likely to be raised.

Posted: **Sat May 06, 2017 2:33 am**

Honestly the death system isn't the problem. These can all be broken down into different problems. For instance in the case of the UD you will run into your killer nearly every time because there is only one city and it's a heckin' tiny place at that. It's literally an egg. That's a probably with the UD though, not the death system. On top of that, all the good exp is there and so surfacers will inevitably flock down there to grab at it. This will lead to even more PVP conflict as the two mistrusting groups come to a head.

In regards to any posts about PVP being unfair? PVP will not always be fair. An ambush, for instance will never really be fair. Ideally we to try and make it /fun/ but we're not obligated to make things fair. Avoiding PVP also goes beyond a single encounter. Your character could be hunted simply for who they are, what they believe in, their race, their profession. Any number of reasons, really.

Lastly, having a harsh PVP death system really doesn't encourage more or less RP. It's not going to make better RPers, it's not going to make anyone take death less lightly. The fact that is serves as a deterrent is merely a bonus. That is a matter of honestly, skill as an RPer. Giving things meaning.
It's silly that Joe Smith the paladin might be killed by Banite A, respawn and immediately make a b-line for Banite B to get his revenge. The death system has the *bonus* of making sure it doesn't happen immediately. But it shouldn't be so harsh as to prevent him from perhaps furthering goals for the future that might strike back at them.

The scenarios in which people die constantly are basically the UD(see above), you're picking fights on your own and eating it because of it or you're somehow playing a character that upsets a lot of people. In the case of the last one, this is remedied in a number of ways. Perhaps they can't take the heat and do some sort of conversion if it's a religion? Nothing wrong with playing a coward, after all. The only instance in which people dying constantly should really be an issue that is solved by anything outside of RP is in the case of griefing which /should be reported./

Posted: **Sat May 06, 2017 3:41 am**

The point is that the new Death system isn't going to change how people roleplay, but it exacerbates the problems created by the above mentioned issues.

Now, instead of it being awkward to run into someone who just killed you (or their friends, faction, whatever), it's awkward to even log in on that character because you can't...really do much. This isn't to mention the cyclical groups that occasionally minimal RP grief law enforcement factions, the upcoming "school's out let's roll up horc kensai's and murder." Sure, the death system didn't create these problems, it just makes them more unbearable.

And why? Because of changes implemented to supposedly combat a complaint that's nearly as old as "Clerics OP, Cleric Nerf When."

I'd thought we'd learned about addressing Arelith culture issues with mechanical changes after the circle grinding script.

Posted: **Sat May 06, 2017 3:58 am**

It's not about it being fun, it's about ic consequences. This is a roleplaying server. Where death matters. It's not an mmo. If you wanted to play an mmo, I suggest ESO or Konan Exiles.

Death is not about being fun. Death /sucks/. Being raised puts A LOT of strain on a character. I think it makes sense for pvp death penalties to last that long, even if I don't like it. You can't just die in pvp and respawn immediately. It gives time for the victors to be able to get to a safe place to erectness you for rp. Now if you're bashed, I feel like that's a different story on an ooc stand point. BUT, it still makes sense as a true-resurrection happens when you respawn after a corpse bash. You're deity is literally raising you for so or so reason from the dead. You should have been dead and gone.
But you had divine intervention. Unless you rp it another way like the cloning tubes in the abyssal citadel where you just walk out with your cloned body.

I think it fits, rp wise. Ooc wise, it's a little unfair to tax the player for that much amount of time. But, that's okay. Because this is what we sign up for when we play on a roleplaying server that is invested into rp in all areas.

If you cannot handle the ic consequences for ic actions then do not do those actions.
Because you /must/ take the consequences. You cannot just complain oocly about it or claim that you're being persecuted oocly. IC consequences are not the result of ooc upset feelings, at least typically.

You can't kill a bunch of people, or torture someone openly, and expect there to be no reciprocation. That is literally implausible and perhaps a little conceited.

This is why they caution you before you make a drow or blatantly evil races/characters. It's not happy fun times all the time nor is it super edgy 'I hate everyone and the world' all the time. Evil characters get the short end of the stick. They don't always win. They get beat up and tossed around because they do evil crap whether you be a sneak, open about the evil, or like Arakh who's just a mack-daddy gangster boss with a bunch of subordinates.

Furthermore, the new death system encourages rp just a little bit. - It allows for time for people to get their crap together and do post-pvp rp. It's not the other parties fault you lost. Nor is it usually ooc. You just engaged and pvp and lost, make something of it.

Allow a raise. Get some rp in. Getting mad because you lost and just respawning is literally probably one of the reasons for this change.

Please note, none of what I said is meant to offend you or anyone personally. :^]

Posted: **Sat May 06, 2017 4:21 am**

Lady of Memes wrote:BUT, it still makes sense as a true-resurrection happens when you respawn after a corpse bash. You're deity is literally raising you for so or so reason from the dead. You should have been dead and gone.
But you had divine intervention. Unless you rp it another way like the cloning tubes in the abyssal citadel where you just walk out with your cloned body.

Well, not really. If you're going to get into PnP concepts, here's a line from the True Resurrection entry.

Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of level (or Constitution points) or prepared spells.

Here's raise dead.

Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell loses one level (or 1 Hit Die) when it is raised, just as if it had lost a level or a Hit Die to an energy-draining creature. If the subject is 1st level, it loses 2 points of Constitution instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can’t be raised). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means. A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being raised, in addition to losing spells for losing a level. A spellcasting creature that doesn’t prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell, in addition to losing spell slots for losing a level

So effectively, in PnP:
True Resurrection: Later spell, higher cost, no debuff to character.
Raise dead: Earlier spell, lower cost, permanent debuff to character.

Now when you die on Arelith, you don't suffer debuffs from being brought back via raise dead. Your claim is that being brought back by your god is a True Resurrection, and it's...harder on you than the piddly magic of a 5th level cleric spell? Nope.

Posted: **Sat May 06, 2017 4:32 am**

When it comes to the 20 minute wait before respawning, I really have no issue with it.

I am of the belief that PvP death should have lasting reprocussions and have the potential to effect your character's future. I very rarely get into PvP, but it happens. And I have gone through many situations where I decided that if I didn't get a raise, I'd retire the character. Most times, I got a raise. But as a less extreme example, I once stopped playing Diego for an entire week because he picked a fight with the wrong guy in the crypts. For those times when perming isn't an option, I definitely feel that extended time away is a good way to give a death more meaning and impact.

When it comes to the respawn sickness? No, I still don't agree with the lengthened time it takes to wear off when you're offline, but I can deal. And after having died since the update, I feel that removing the strength debuff greatly mitigates the pain of playing through the sickness.

I would, however, love to see a way put in to cause the sickness to wear off sooner, like praying at an altar for 2 full ticks, or something like that. It would require you to have chosen a deity, so faithless would be SOL, which I think is fitting.

Overall, I think it's important to remember that this is not a one-player game. When you (or your character) die, it effects more than just you. All your friends, and all your family, and even stray acquaintances are going to have something to say about you dying. Maybe somebody might even break down and cry. It's a common and powerful thing that happens when people die. If you come back 5 minutes later, then it really cheapens the whole thing, and removes all that potential for roleplay. I know to me, having that happen is very un-immersive.

I would say, instead of feeling you're entitled to come back ASAP and continue playing with your friends, try to take a little time, and maybe try to think of a way to come back that can make your story more interesting. To me, at least, cheap respawns are incredibly uninsteresting.

That's how I see it. You don't have to agree, but I hope my perspective might be useful to you if you're willing to reconsider your own point of view.

Posted: **Sat May 06, 2017 5:02 am**

Sticky, Squicky, Dead and Icky wrote:
So effectively, in PnP:
True Resurrection: Later spell, higher cost, no debuff to character.
Raise dead: Earlier spell, lower cost, permanent debuff to character.

Now when you die on Arelith, you don't suffer debuffs from being brought back via raise dead. Your claim is that being brought back by your god is a True Resurrection, and it's...harder on you than the piddly magic of a 5th level cleric spell? Nope.

The problem with this is that Arelith deviates a LOT from PnP lore. It says in the arelith wiki that usually your ic reason for coming back is loose ended and that you can usually rp it how you want. Regardless, I am talking about respawning from having your CORPSE BASHED.- As a result of pvp.
When your corpse is bashed, you get a message saying 'your body has been destroyed'. By d and d terms, that means it's /impossible/ to raise dead without divine intervention or other means. This does take a toll on the character.

Posted: **Sat May 06, 2017 5:55 am**

Lady of Memes wrote:When your corpse is bashed, you get a message saying 'your body has been destroyed'. By d and d terms, that means it's /impossible/ to raise dead without divine intervention or other means.

Not actually true, as per 3E D&D. When a corpse is bashed, there remains enough of the body to leave an identifiable head. A PnP Resurrection spell can be used on such remains.

D20 srd wrote:The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death. (The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.)

In any case, let's stop bringing PnP into these discussions. Not only is Arelith far removed from a DM-run pen-and-paper campaign, but the source rules often cited incorrectly or inappropriately.

Posted: **Sat May 06, 2017 6:08 am**

Iceborn wrote:
Trunx wrote:
Iceborn wrote:Trunx, what do you do when you get bashed?
Out of burning curiosity.
Never happened.

I'm agreeing with Trunx on this one. I've been here almost 4 years now. I've been bashed three times that I can remember. It's certainly not a regular occurrence, nor has it ever been unjustified.

Two of my four characters are devoutly Mystran, and there's some things they just won't stand for. All three times, I went into conflict expecting it to happen, and I wasn't upset. Why would you leave a raise-worthy corpse of an enemy behind you? That's almost like building a self-destruct button in your top-secret base and hoping no one pushes it, IMO.

Which means it's unfortunate, but sometimes my characters are going to dig in their heels over an ideal, and they're going to experience something similar to that moment in Dragon Ball Z when Krillin gets exploded like a meat pie by Frieza.

Sometimes Bad Things Happen to Good Adventurers, and death didn't really feel like a Bad Thing. I think that was a problem, and I think this addresses it (by the vocal outcry it is certainly giving death more of an impact).

So I'll hit the respawn button, I'll walk around a little crippled for a while. I'll visit the bank, get more healing kits, make a circuit of the shops, go to the mercantile, cut some gems, and look for a group to go get stronger with- because now my character has a benchmark they have to surpass.

I believe there is a lot of hysteria-based 'logic' being used to claim why this penalty is awful. Has anyone filed a report yet of being hunted maliciously and without provocation multiple days in a row?

I believe we've committed more time to the discussion of hypothetical douche-baggery in this thread than the amount of time someone who engages in it is likely to spend on the server before being hit with the ban stick.

Edit: I can see how it would be a bit more of an issue for those who make their home in Andunor, but isn't that kind of a .... uhh... feature/fact-of-life...about drow culture in general? Still, I wouldn't mind if there was another settlement of sorts down there. *shrug*

Posted: **Sat May 06, 2017 6:20 am**

Lady of Memes wrote:It's not about it being fun, it's about ic consequences. This is a roleplaying server. Where death matters. It's not an mmo. If you wanted to play an mmo, I suggest ESO or Konan Exiles.

IC actions should have IC consequences, sure. A 32 hour penalty is not an IC consequence, that is an OOC consequence. It punishes the player for roleplaying their character in a certain way, effectively. I think it's faulty to correlate dissatisfaction with this update with being a casual MMO player. Ironically, I see it the reverse: that a death penalty is an antiquated MMO game mechanic being shoehorned in a place where it doesn't belong, where it contaminates a roleplayer's decision making in what they have their character do. Into every PvP interaction is carried an ulterior agenda and it possibly detracts from their roleplay decision making just slightly enough for them to forego a conflict their player character, in reality, would have participated in ("eh, I don't have that much time to play this week, do I really want to be gimped for 32 hours? I'm gonna sit this one out"). I'm not saying all PvP is going to come to a catastrophic halt, but I don't think the aforementioned scenario is too unreasonable to imagine happening.

I've seen the argument made that being unable to mechanically hinder the other player makes the combat meaningless, but I disagree. Meaning on this server is not, has never, nor should be, derived from your ability to kill another player character and penalise the player for it. If the defeated player chooses to ignore the interaction and pretend it never happened, that's on them. It makes them a poor roleplayer, but it's not yours to police. Poor roleplayers will always find ways to be poor roleplayers, I promise you no mechanics will change that. If they would ignore an unpenalized death, they will most certainly ignore a penalized one -- in fact, they will probably double down. If they are the type to ignore death then no significance could have been derived from the act of killing them in the first place.

I don't know if I'm necessarily advocating for 0 PvP death penalty here, but I think a lot of the reasoning in support of the update ought to be questioned.

Posted: **Sat May 06, 2017 7:17 am**

yellowcateyes wrote:
In any case, let's stop bringing PnP into these discussions. Not only is Arelith far removed from a DM-run pen-and-paper campaign, but the source rules often cited incorrectly or inappropriately.

Ditto is my reply to your first comment. <3

Posted: **Sat May 06, 2017 7:27 am**

Lady of Memes wrote:
yellowcateyes wrote:
In any case, let's stop bringing PnP into these discussions. Not only is Arelith far removed from a DM-run pen-and-paper campaign, but the source rules often cited incorrectly or inappropriately.
Ditto is my reply to your first comment. <3

Posted: **Sat May 06, 2017 7:29 am**

Sabines wrote:
Lady of Memes wrote:It's not about it being fun, it's about ic consequences. This is a roleplaying server. Where death matters. It's not an mmo. If you wanted to play an mmo, I suggest ESO or Konan Exiles.
IC actions should have IC consequences, sure. A 32 hour penalty is not an IC consequence, that is an OOC consequence. It punishes the player for roleplaying their character in a certain way, effectively. I think it's faulty to correlate dissatisfaction with this update with being a casual MMO player. Ironically, I see it the reverse: that a death penalty is an antiquated MMO game mechanic being shoehorned in a place where it doesn't belong, where it contaminates a roleplayer's decision making in what they have their character do. Into every PvP interaction is carried an ulterior agenda and it possibly detracts from their roleplay decision making just slightly enough for them to forego a conflict their player character, in reality, would have participated in ("eh, I don't have that much time to play this week, do I really want to be gimped for 32 hours? I'm gonna sit this one out"). I'm not saying all PvP is going to come to a catastrophic halt, but I don't think the aforementioned scenario is too unreasonable to imagine happening.

I've seen the argument made that being unable to mechanically hinder the other player makes the combat meaningless, but I disagree. Meaning on this server is not, has never, nor should be, derived from your ability to kill another player character and penalise the player for it. If the defeated player chooses to ignore the interaction and pretend it never happened, that's on them. It makes them a poor roleplayer, but it's not yours to police. Poor roleplayers will always find ways to be poor roleplayers, I promise you no mechanics will change that. If they would ignore an unpenalized death, they will most certainly ignore a penalized one -- in fact, they will probably double down. If they are the type to ignore death then no significance could have been derived from the act of killing them in the first place.

I don't know if I'm necessarily advocating for 0 PvP death penalty here, but I think a lot of the reasoning in support of the update ought to be questioned.

Death is an ic punishment. You are supposed to rp out the punishment- the penalty after you raise. The 20 minute interlude from pvp death is likely more for the chance for the opposing party to ask to raise you and get to a safe place because of the pvp battle. This makes it an ic consequence or ic result. Now, no system is perfect. This CAN be abused. I'm definitely not disputing that. I know people, that play on here, that I know are already abusing this change pvp wise.
It depends on how you look at it in the end. You can say that it's punishing the player. And sure, from some perspectives it does seem that way. But you have to look at logically. Why would the devs/dm team put this in? What could possibly be the reason for instituting this change? Is there a reasonable, logical, explanation?

You have to realize that there are players on this server, also, who are not experienced roleplayers, either by ignorance, simply new to rping and don't know better, or simply just are obstinate about changing bad habits rp wise. What do you think they are going to do if there are no death penalties?
Likely they're going to take this and blow it out of proportion, or simply just ignore other peoples conflict rp with them.
On the contrary, I believe Poor role players are forced to face the fact that their characters are not gods or as powerful as they think they are when they must deal with pvp death penalty. If you talk bull crap at people, you should expect to get heat from it. And if it comes to death, you should handle those ic consequences. I feel like death penalties are needed, they help with the whole trial and error part of this game. - In my opinion at least.

Simply, death penalties tend to humble. Which is something, that unfortunately, some people need. - In my opinion, again.

Posted: **Sat May 06, 2017 8:01 am**

This post is in answer to those who query that kill bashing and repeated PvP exist. They do. I have been involved in both random kill bash events, and a "gank squad", both with extremely limited input on my part. These have occurred three times for me over a year. I'm not certain if that counts as frequent or not. I have had two other PvP events, none initialised by myself, which did not fall into this category.

The easiest way to get involved in PvP, often resulting in kill bashing, is to take your character to the region of the ice roads and the slime temple. This is usually a random, unrepeated event. Its still incredibly annoying to experience and serves no rp purpose. When I've been on the receiving end of it, I've written it off to encountering one of the servers **** heads and got on with my life. I very much doubt that there would be any action I could take which could give those deaths resonant meaning. I don't ignore them, but I'm not going to credit rp of "We want to hunt here so you're going to die" with much more than a cursory nod.

The second easiest way to get involved in PvP is to upset one of the ill famed "gank squads". Whilst these are much maligned, there is usually some RP justification for their actions (although this doesn't necessarily mean they are any fun at all to experience). The main problem I have with this, is that through a combination of limited places to travel to as a monster race, and scrying, it is very easy to wind up PvPed several times over a very short time period. These times may not even be by the same group, but by interconnected groups. The underdark is filled with groups with multiple links between them and to fall foul of a single character can often mean finding yourself in opposition to many, many more. People hire muscle to do their dirty work, and there is a good chunk of the player base that find enjoyment in hunting people down and getting involved in PvP. Its perfectly possible for people to be involved in this kind of rp without any kind of rule break, though on the receiving end of it, it is deeply unpleasant to not even be able to create a disguise before being gang PvPed. And yes, this insight comes from my own personal observations.

A short while ago, the player of Asb'el suggested making the shadow plane impervious to scrying. This would go a long way to giving people options to truly hide out. I back this suggestion 100%. I'd also love it if instead of giving the name of the location when scrying, it said "somewhere". That way, if you recognise where the subject is, great. If it was a random cave filled with barrrels, you would have to figure it out for yourself. As it stands, even before the new death penalties, one of the most common responses to being chain ganked was to shelve the character for a long period of time. Removing the harsher death penalties won't actually solve the serial ganking problem by itself, and nor will reporting to DMs, since rule breaks are not necessarily involved.

Posted: **Sat May 06, 2017 10:06 am**

WinkinBlinkin wrote:This post is in answer to those who query that kill bashing and repeated PvP exist. They do. I have been involved in both random kill bash events, and a "gank squad", both with extremely limited input on my part. These have occurred three times for me over a year. I'm not certain if that counts as frequent or not. I have had two other PvP events, none initialised by myself, which did not fall into this category.
A short while ago, the player of Asb'el suggested making the shadow plane impervious to scrying. This would go a long way to giving people options to truly hide out. I back this suggestion 100%. I'd also love it if instead of giving the name of the location when scrying, it said "somewhere". That way, if you recognise where the subject is, great. If it was a random cave filled with barrrels, you would have to figure it out for yourself. As it stands, even before the new death penalties, one of the most common responses to being chain ganked was to shelve the character for a long period of time. Removing the harsher death penalties won't actually solve the serial ganking problem by itself, and nor will reporting to DMs, since rule breaks are not necessarily involved.

I hate to say this, but it feels like you're just a tad upset about pvp in general. I'm not accussing you of anything, but many of the statements here are just a bit blown out of proportion. For one, as someone who has no problem creating conflict when there are problems with other people wanting to grind in the same area my group is, most of the time that I've encountered or started interactions like this that may, or sometimes may not, lead to pvp involves quite a bit of rp beforehand. I wont deny there are a select few people on the server who will drop a few lines and then hostile, but the amount of people in this group is literally a handfull at most.
You only encounter them in the UD because the UD is better to grind than the surface- powergrind wise.

Secondly, typically you can speak ic or oocly with someone who is literally making life in andunor unfun to play in. Usually, the player will be agreeable and try to help find an ic solution so that it is not 'unfun' for you anymore whilst still having ic consequences for what happened. As meta-gamey as that sounds, sometimes it helps to talk it out oocly and then resolve ic. Some people don't understand that it's not fun to be hunted 24/7. Conflict is great! Too much is not fun for most. There are also various ways events like this can usually be solved ic without ooc intervention.

If you feel like you're being continuously wronged oocly or purposely hunted to shelve your character, then report it. Sure, they may not get in trouble, but it gets the word out to the dms to watch said player as a potential rule breaker or just straight up bully. The biggest mistake people make when they encounter problems with other players is that they do not report. Don't complain to your friends, do something about it.

While I do like the idea bout the shadow-plane being anti-scry proof, I would reason the shadow-plane isn't quite big enough to house strays from Andunor or Cordor what with the total of three quarters it has (One being a temple), no shops, and limited areas to actually do things other than grind. I would also reason your suggestion is best posted in the suggestion box on the forums.

In closing, I don't think it's quite as interconnected oocly as you say, though I acknowledge it does exist to some degree. No matter what game you play, there are always going to be the people who take pleasure trolling others. But it usually doesn't mean most playerbase is like this.

Arelith

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