Arelith

There have also been some steps to discourage the "ghost" PC behavior, that is you have no bio, your disguise name is like "Brooding Guy" and you never once say your name or take off your helm or buy any property, so you're a ghost that just doesn't exist and can't be banished and nobody can ever ID you because you have no bio. You didn't even need disguise to do this before because if you never say your name it may as well not exist.

This and other things (such as being able to bash a corpse to learn about the bashed person) are steps in the right direction, because now at least their bio will contain some information to ID them ic to others.

BegoneThoth wrote:There have also been some steps to discourage the "ghost" PC behavior, that is you have no bio, your disguise name is like "Brooding Guy" and you never once say your name or take off your helm or buy any property, so you're a ghost that just doesn't exist and can't be banished and nobody can ever ID you because you have no bio. You didn't even need disguise to do this before because if you never say your name it may as well not exist.

This and other things (such as being able to bash a corpse to learn about the bashed person) are steps in the right direction, because now at least their bio will contain some information to ID them ic to others.

Good luck with trying to ID a human with no description other than "Racial type: human, among tens of others humans

At least it's something. Knowing someone is a tiefling or a Drow or a wood elf or even a base human actually can help a lot.

Cortex wrote:What would a "not lame" response be to a random accusation?

First, it isn't a random accusation: if a character beats your disguise and has enough lore under the current system, then they recognize some aspect of your character's race that you haven't been able to hide effectively.

A response that isn't lame could be to work with the player somehow (through emotes or, if it's information that they should be able to perceive and others around can't perceive because they haven't beaten your disguise, a tell might not be inappropriate) to let them know something about your character that they might have noticed so that you aren't literally just saying "Okay you beat my disguise and now know that my character is a tiefling... now make something up about my character."

Another response might be to threaten them, that you'll kill them if they tell anyone, or to try to bribe them to keep your secret, or even just flat-out deny it... anything is better than the weird OOC game you're playing if you try to make the spotter squirm out an explanation when the only reason it's awkward is that you're denying them information about your character that they should have because of the check.

This is tricky only for planetouched really, because their "tells" vary so widely from individual to individual. Maybe the answer is to expand this system a bit and have a console command where the planetouched character can put in a description that would appear only to people who beat the relevant checks. So a typical person when examining a planetouched character would see "Race: human", but a person with enough lore would see "Race: tiefling; Characteristic: [PC-chosen characteristics]", to give the planetouched character a little more control about what traits people are claiming their characters have. The responsibility is down to both parties to RP it in a way that neither tries to claim an unsupported advantage nor makes for a nonsensical situation.

Or raise the lore DC so that it actually takes some investment rather than a pittance.

Bluff will hide it too remember.

Nitro wrote:Or raise the lore DC so that it actually takes some investment rather than a pittance.

I don't have any argument with that. It needs to be a number that's attainable (remember, the real opposed check here is spot vs bluff/perform, not lore vs a static lore requirement), but 15 does seem a bit low in a world where anyone can easily grab 2 +5 lore rings, have +2 lore from INT, and therefore really only need 3 points invested to reach 15 easily. If it was either ranks only (no INT/spells/gear) or a higher number for this check, I wouldn't complain about that in the least.

Either way, if you want to hide your race, you'll need bluff/perform. If you don't want to hide your race, no problem.

What this update does is just keep people from RPing an ultimate trait-hiding ability that they haven't invested any skill points for.

Ork wrote:

Invader_Nym wrote:I don't walk around examining every single individual I pass, but I /definitely/ examine every single disguised person I pass. This is a problem.

Agreed. You should stop doing that.

Okay, I will.

Of course, you'll have no way of knowing for sure if I will or won't, which was my point to begin with:

There are various different forms of meta-gaming for which there is immense plausible deniability such that to prove it took place is a logistical nightmare that just bogs everyone down and doesn't pay off.

Your pithy remark did nothing to move the conversation forward.

Design concepts that rely on the honor system to function are just going to reward dishonorable players, which is why they're a bad idea.

Lorkas wrote:big text

If the trait is invisible to the naked eye, like a third nipple, how would it be justifiable?

Cortex wrote:If the trait is invisible to the naked eye, like a third nipple, how would it be justifiable?

*sniffs the air* "I know that smell. The sinister, sour stench of demonic nipples. Stop right there, criminal scum!"

Hi folks. Just my two cents on it. I'll try to keep it brief. I agree with One Two Three Five, Cortex, Aftond, and Stath on this one. Couple things I want to point out:

My problem isn't with the system necessarily. It's with its suddenness, and its impact on existing characters, and reasons for being implemented. The change feels arbitrary to me given Arelith's history with these sorts of changes, and likely a regression into issues we faced before. Let me list them:

1. Tracking and *looks* were added in. For dragon PCs, planetouched, and drow, they would leave "Dragon" "Tiefling/Aasimar" and "Drow" tracks. This was deemed to be problematic for those players (aren't they wearing shoes?). Some people argued that there would be other factors that would let them know it was a Drow, Dragon, Tiefling, Aasimar, whatever, but these explanations were epic in scale and hardly believable. Similar with looks, people didn't like it. These systems lasted a few months. Final status: Reverted.
2. Next we move on to -detect_evil. Paladins have this ability and if my memory serves, it keyed off charisma. Don't really need to say much more, basically paladins would run around using this on everybody at every encounter and make a list of the baddies and who never to trust. Covert evil didn't really stand a chance at infiltrating or appearing good. Same goes for the evil-detection barrier at Light Keep. Final status: Reverted/Destroyed.

So we have a history of these sorts of changes. We tried them before and they didn't work out. I am not seeing what about the roleplay dynamic has changed recently which would make them welcome additions. This thread supports my suspicions: it is divisive.

Also in agreement about RDDs, Palemasters, and other form-altering classes. Should paladins be able to detect blackguards and conversely? Do druids smell of nature? Are barbarians prone to violence and something you can 'sense' in their aggressive tone? These notions are based on the same reasoning for the affected races, but are equally silly. You get the picture, so I'll leave it there.

The bottom line for me is this: If I were playing a plane-touched character trying to keep a secret, and didn't take bluff, now I need a respec. It's not so much a matter of what the ideal mechanical setup is. It doesn't matter what 'ought' to have been done; planning is done based on what 'is' and what 'will be'. Regressions are not reasonably reintroduced, usually it is by accident or without understanding of past mistakes. What matters is the upheaval of existing RP, forcing rebuilds to maintain existing RP, and inconvenience for the sake of a feature I am still on the fence about. If I were telling a story (I'm just here until EE launches at this point, pretty much), this change is tantamount to letting people skip 5 chapters ahead in a book to read the solution to a murder mystery while they're still at chapter 1. It spoils a book, and it spoils a story arc. I would rather players just get good at cooperating with others than turn to mechanics as a means to solve their problems.

I also think that we're in a dangerous area as far as the philosophy goes. Here we see an example of a mechanical system that has patched existing roleplay dynamic. Do we really want strict mechanical systems constraining roleplay avenues that are otherwise free-form and left to the creativity of other players? I am seeing some sentiment that other players can't be trusted to reveal information and roleplay fairly, so a mechanical system is needed... to take their choices away from them, and rely on solely character sheets. Isn't that an instance of bad roleplay that can be corrected with a little training and understanding? Does that really need a universal mechanical system at all? It sounds more like a trust issue and that the server has not been a good teacher. Players should see some improvement in RP over time, if the server is designed to champion roleplay and make people better roleplayers.

A mechanical system is just going to encourage the number metagame further. Instead of creatively coming up with a solution to unmasking a character (creativity is a good thing, it shows intelligence and dedication), numbers suffice, so why over-complicate a simple solution: just take ranks in a paltry 10 or 15 lore (or equip +5 lore rings, use a bardic mandolin, or an identify potion), and presto, problem solved. There is a saying: Creativity requires constraints. We are removing limitations (The limitations of what you can see IG and act on, by providing more information) and forcing people to take bluff if they want to continue their RP style (Adding further build constraint, but requiring rebuilds for existing characters, which changes their identity). How a character explains what they know (and how plausible that reason is) is not going to matter. What matters now is that they have the information from 10/15 lore and that's the ruling on the field. The mechanical system justifies it.

This system also will not fix the issue of uncooperative players, who will just continue to wear a helmet AND a disguise, and can lead to unusual scenarios where they're disguised but not wearing concealing clothing either. This system oversteers roleplay: if they're disguised, you are explicitly being told your character does not know their race even if you see the horns. Plus, not all tieflings have horns or tails or other identifying features, so what happens then? Those characters don't get seen as a tiefling, but there are other features like pointed teeth, piercing eyes, how come you can't see those if they are not wearing any facial covering, and reach the same sort of conclusion?

The solution to me has always been cooperative storytelling and mutual respect. This change is starting to feel like a "this is the objectively correct way to play the game" type of change.

If any DMs are around, hit me up with a level 1 rebuild please. My character will lose 33 skillpoints in a current skill to take bluff in order to continue my existing RP. Also, I didn't take any classes with bluff in my existing build, so I need to change one of my classes completely. I'll explain that IC as he fell and hit his head and is now a different person with a different backstory. ecks-dee.

Scene: Somewhere in Arelith
Bilbo Swaggins: "Hey, it's that mysterious guy again!"
Mysterious Man: "Hello again, Bilbo. Are you-"
Samwise: "He's a tiefling."
Mysterious Man: "...Um, what?"
Samwise: "Definitely a tiefling. He's not even trying to hide it. See those two grooves on his helmet. They're horns."
Mysterious Man: "And how did you reach that conclusion now, and not the last 8 times we met?"
Samwise: "I dunno... I knew it all along I guess? Didn't feel like saying anything before though." (ecks-dee)
(Updates break roleplay continuity)
End Scene

Cortex wrote:What would a "not lame" response be to a random accusation?

I think lame accusations deserve lame responses, imo, they definitely go hand in hand.

DarkDreamer wrote: If you suspect metagaming and cheating in that nature, Screenshot and report!

Should exploits be left open just because players who suspect other players are exploiting can screenshot and report? no.

If a system is susceptible to abuse, and there is a way to make it less susceptible to abuse (and free up precious DM time in the process), should it just be left the way it is because players can send reports that take up DM time? Snuggle a Bugbear no. Why would DM's want to sift through a bunch of metagame reports, which are difficult to prove one way or another, when you could just change the disguise system to only display the (Disguise) tag if a player beats a disguise check and save a lot of time and player frustration (not to mention make the system feel more fair)?

lolllllllllllllllz

I don't think people need to change classes, you can hit 40+ bluff while cross classing it. Those claims are really overblown.

BegoneThoth wrote:I don't think people need to change classes, you can hit 40+ bluff while cross classing it. Those claims are really overblown.

Anybody can do it, even right off the boat, right? Not to mention how crippling it is to other stats.

I can reach 40 bluff by cross-classing 30 ranks and then adding +2 bluff across all gear items, swapping out a different skill in the process. Getting a decent set of end-game gear is also going to require... roleplaying with people, under the new system, which means that there is a large enough window to be revealed while I wait for enchanting or go out trying to find an enchanter (could use Discord I guess ). Plus I need to decide on a skill to swap out, and still lose 30 ranks in a skill cross-classing into bluff, which changes the identity of the character.

The point was missed.

Cortex wrote:

BegoneThoth wrote:I don't think people need to change classes, you can hit 40+ bluff while cross classing it. Those claims are really overblown.

Anybody can do it, even right off the boat, right? Not to mention how crippling it is to other stats.

No, but im of the firm belief that races like tiefling should have a clear and obvious Rp penalty, otherwise it's just 2 free con the race.

BegoneThoth wrote:

Cortex wrote:

BegoneThoth wrote:I don't think people need to change classes, you can hit 40+ bluff while cross classing it. Those claims are really overblown.

Anybody can do it, even right off the boat, right? Not to mention how crippling it is to other stats.

No, but im of the firm belief that races like tiefling should have a clear and obvious Rp penalty, otherwise it's just 2 free con the race.

I'm of the firm belief that forcing people to take bluff against a potion that you get off creation, and 3 points in a skill(assuming 14 int) is a bad idea.

That isn't a penalty if the characters don't discriminate, which is the real penalty. Aasimar doesn't get nearly as much discrimination or a need to hide either, so the "free 2 con" doesn't matter.

Do we really need a mechanical system to create that penalty for tieflings (requiring bluff to avoid averse treatment, similarly daylight penalties were not introduced for UDers because it was "too restrictive"), or can RP from other players suffice to create a social stigma towards tieflings (how it has always been: about how people RP)?

But with regards to tieflings having RP penalties, I guess there's no issue walking around as an open tiefling in Cordor right now anyways, so bluff isn't really needed at all?

BegoneThoth wrote:I don't think people need to change classes, you can hit 40+ bluff while cross classing it. Those claims are really overblown.

Hm. Will you give me these 30 sklil points needed for that, please?

Or add me +2 int? Thanks.


This response of yours was really quite off.

Septire wrote:Do we really need a mechanical system to create that penalty for tieflings

As long as the races are simply a flat upgrade to their non planar versions, yes I 100% think you do. You get the perks of whatever race you pick (free stuff for humans, free feats for other races) and just get a free +2 con gift, in addition to a free +2 from whatever bloodline you pick. You can then still pick another +2 stat gift. It's simply better in every way, it has to have some downside in the form of a social stigma.

Otherwise why make a non planar-race character? Ever? if you can just be a planar with no difference in how you're seen?

Hm. Will you give me these 30 sklil points needed for that, please?

Or add me +2 int? Thanks.


This response of yours was really quite off.

I mean, you can always rebuild if your secret racial identity is so core to your RP that you need to conceal it.

Planetouched are not necessarily a flat upgrade to the normal races, and honestly I think you need to stop looking at the subrace in terms of "mechanical power" alone. No one is saying that Planetouched shouldn't be treated with suspicion, curiosity, whatever.

The main point of the original post is to ask why is right clicking>examine "PLANETOUCHED/DROW/ELF!!!" seen as a needed system? Rather than simply interacting with a character and having actual interesting back and forth roleplay with someone. Why not let them craft some unique and interesting traits for their character and then express it with creativity to create a compelling narrative, and add some mystery to the game world?

Also, I apologize for specifically calling you out Lorkas but I don't at all agree with you that the nature of Arelith as a place in the Realms means people have more knowledge about Planetouched, edging on common knowledge about them. That just feels a little too homebrew and fairly distant from FR canon.

I believe I stated why I think it's needed. Removal or increasing the requirements of the hidden drow/tiefling that was very common.

BegoneThoth wrote:I believe I stated why I think it's needed. Removal or increasing the requirements of the hidden drow/tiefling that was very common.

REbuild may mean taking aways like 10+ levels. All the time those tielflings and stuff are fully exposed out. And still it means tons of time spent on re grinding character.

BegoneThoth wrote:Otherwise why make a non planar-race character? Ever? if you can just be a planar with no difference in how you're seen?

This is a whole 'nother can of worms altogether, but suffice to say, without getting into the thick of it, that I agree that plane-touched should not be a flat upgrade, but I was already gone by the time bloodlines were introduced. I still prefer the old tiefling model, but I see the merit in customization with the bloodlines. I would just have preferred going about it in a slightly different way than purely mechanical, but it's fine, not really going to complain now.

I want to be clear: I'm not on about the mechanical penalties, in this case. I'm talking about RP penalties: the way people RP with tieflings, and the way the NPCs interact with them. I think that needs to change. Slapping a -2 attribute onto a tiefling and then still allowing them to walk around Cordor and not batting an eye to their race doesn't seem like the best solution. The experience is not distinct enough in my eyes from non-planetouched. It does not seem to have a pronounced RP identity just yet. Ergo, the distinction between mechanical penalties and RP penalties. I can accept (not ideal, but I can live with) plane-touched being strictly better, PROVIDED that the race offers a distinct roleplay experience, and is generally harder to roleplay due to social stigmas.

In the quote you have, I am asking if we need to have a bluff-based system at all, if the RP currently is that nobody cares if you are a tiefling or not, even if discovered. I'm agreeing with you there. I am disagreeing on number-based mechanics being the solution to that problem. But that's a topic in its own right.

With regards to rebuilding, that's my point: Why aggrieve players with rebuilds when the system isn't adding all that much to the game otherwise (gnomes v halflings being the exception), and already has notable (seemingly arbitrary) exceptions for vampires (who can never be identified as one according to the announcement post, no matter how much lore or spot a character has), for Deep Imaskari (who will always be identified as a deep imaskari if not disguised, no lore needed), and asymmetry between drow and elves (drow are monsters, so will always be identified without needing lore. Elves are not monsters, so will only be identified if the target has 10 lore).

*Rings a small silver bell for Durvayas*

Then the system doesn't cover form-altering classes (RDD, Palemaster, Monk), or reasonable sensations, as described above (druids, barbarians), for basically any other class you can shake a stick at.

I think that the spot and lore requirements are going to be adjusted, in all likelihood. And this system can likely fit, but I want to address the philosophy of the change more than the fine-tuning which will lead to its success, and what sort of a message this system says about how players RP (many of which can be seen in this thread).