Arelith

The Damned wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:38 pm Personally attacking someone with a different viewpoint than you is often the last resort for someone who is losing an argument.

And then later in the thread...

The Damned wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:56 pm To say otherwise is a logical fallacy, and someone intelligent can easily determine that much, and quickly.

The Damned wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:38 pm If they haven't been abused up to this point, it's because people lacked the foresight to recognize how immensely imbalanced they were.

sad_zav wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:08 pm i can tell you man that being that pedantic isn't going by get you far in life. I never said it was the sole reason, either. and please don't insult my intelligence. it's very hypocritical, given the nature of this thread

you also didn't meticulously explain away my points. You said truestrike was a problem, you said mummies are hard to micro, you think cloud spells are bad, and you think everyone has high saves, and by golly breaches don't amount to anything anyway

you just like, want to be bad?

You are consistently deriving alternative meaning from what I've been saying in this thread, and consistently developing inaccurate conclusions based upon them.

If you can't adequately derive accurate and specific meaning from someone's argument, and regularly find yourself misinterpreting, misconstruing, and deriving generalizations that they -didn't- make from their statements, then you shouldn't be debating on the forums.

"you think everyone has high saves" <-- This was never said. Period.
"by golly breaches don't amount to anything anyway" <-- This was also never said. Period.
"you said mummies are hard to micro" <-- This was also never said. Period.

If you think they were, then you have a severe issue of misreading statements in the English language. For both of our sakes, stop attempting to debate someone when nearly every argument you make is predicated upon a misportrayal of what they said.

If I had to provide a practical example of what you're doing in this argument, it'd be what Cathy Newman is doing in this interview: https://youtu.be/aMcjxSThD54

Ork wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:09 pm

The Damned wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:56 pm To say otherwise is a logical fallacy, and someone intelligent can easily determine that much, and quickly.

That's not an insult. It's a matter of fact.

Maybe you have a problem articulating yourself correctly

you definitely have a problem with contradicting yourself

at this point the thread's pure mud-slinging so I'm out

It's also sorely assumptive to state that because something has been this way for 2 years, that you've seen the worst of it. That assumes that you've not only engaged in combat EXTENSIVELY, but that you've also witnessed each and every player on the server engage in combat already. And you haven't. A slew of new players have arrived, many of which are talented, competent PvPers with extensive mechanical knowledge, and many of them have not yet made it to 30 or been in fights that you've personally witnessed.

None of the people this thread is very obviously complaining about are new. Some have been playing on this server for over 10 years. Most are firmly pre-EE at the very least. They are merely, as you said, good at the game, and Arelith is intentionally balanced around the higher echelons of skill and intelligence, not the lower ones.

I'm really sorry you've lost PvP! But assuming things need to change just because you have lost is a childish way of thinking, to say the least. Allow me to assure you that the balance team is watching always for things that cause a big problem for all players, and nerfs/buffs are happening all the time to keep things fun and balanced.

sad_zav wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:19 pm Maybe you have a problem articulating yourself correctly

you definitely have a problem with contradicting yourself

at this point the thread's pure mud-slinging so I'm out

Non-surprisingly, when you resort to attacking someone because you disagree with their point of view, and can't formulate a defensible argument against them, they defend themselves.

If you dislike it when they do, I'd recommend that you don't break the chain of civil debate with insults to begin with.

Lunargent wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:24 pm None of the people this thread is very obviously complaining about are new. Some have been playing on this server for over 10 years.

"Not being new" doesn't make someone good at the game. Nor does it mean they know what they're talking about. Hundreds of players in 1.69 have been playing NWN since it's release in 2002. And hundreds of those same players are abysmally ill-educated on mechanics, and utterly atrocious at PvP.

Lunargent wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:24 pm I'm really sorry you've lost PvP! But assuming things need to change just because you have lost is a childish way of thinking, to say the least.

Not an argument. Try again.

The Damned wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:25 pm

sad_zav wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:19 pm Maybe you have a problem articulating yourself correctly

you definitely have a problem with contradicting yourself

at this point the thread's pure mud-slinging so I'm out

Non-surprisingly, when you resort to attacking someone because you disagree with their point of view, and can't formulate a defensible argument against them, they defend themselves.

If you dislike it when they do, I'd recommend that you don't break the chain of civil debate with insults to begin with.

Hmm

That's not an insult. It's a matter of fact.

For one insisting that people don't 'break the chain of civil debate with insults' you sure do have some odd notions of what constitutes polite vernacular when referring to the intelligence of other people.

And, since you do seem fond of pointing out fallacies (which is a fallacy in itself), I'd also like to point that at this point this entire argument is a circular fallacy since at this point you and most of the thread is repeating the same arguments without really answering them.

The Damned wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:16 pm "you think everyone has high saves" <-- This was never said. Period.

Also "The Damned":
A competent player with high saves isn't going to be inhibited or killed by a caster that only has soft CC in his arsenal.

The Damned wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:16 pm"by golly breaches don't amount to anything anyway" <-- This was also never said. Period.

Also "The Damned":
The only one that can possibly be categorized as hard CC is Web, and web DOES have a reflex save. Freedom also mitigates it, and mundanes are extremely difficult for most casters to dispel.

The Damned wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:16 pm"you said mummies are hard to micro" <-- This was also never said. Period.

Also "The Damned":
Factors that affect how much utility summons provide include:
- Any other targets that might pull aggro from the AI.
- The requirement of player tool micromanagement if others are present to pull aggro from AI.

It's very clear you have a distinct lack of expertise in NWN and completely backpedal whenever you're called on it.

Are we done here?

I'd say more or less, yes. Most of the actual discussion died somewhere on page 2.

Remember when folks used to cast time stop scrolls and kill someone in a single round and the forum response from some people was, "Lol l2p, it's been like this for 12 years!" Along with the nerf to implosion DC. I don't see nearly as many people whining about Time stop anymore and I don't see threads of people calling for the return of the old time stop spell. personally, I feel the spell is in a good place now. Plenty of abilities and items could use a rebalance still however. They are just not as obviously grossly imbalanced.

Rook wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:29 pm
I am sad to see the discussion devolve into a rather condescending tone at this point, though. Seems unnecessary, uncondusive to a healthy discussion and childish.

Can we not take this in such a hurtful and condescending manner? Can we be civil about this discussion and not resort to petty personal attacks? I'm calling out both sides of this argument. Please refrain from attacking each other on the basis of "mad cause bad" , "your build sucks" , "You're just bad at this game cause you agree with X Y Z" , etc.

EDIT: Also can we stop assuming that people are agreeing with one side or another because they "Lost at pvp"?

Yup, definitely done here.