Arelith

MoreThanThree wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:50 am Invalid, this means everyone already knows everyone else on the island because NPCs and PCs are presumed to talk about them without it having to be RPed

What it actually means is that when you made an outcast the game told you everyone on the surface knew you didn't belong, so in this case, yes, they are presumed to have discussed you and know about you without it actually having happened on the server - because you agreed to that to play the character.

Again, if that kind of infamy isn't for you, then get a really good disguise score, or play anything else that isn't an outcast, that doesn't require it.

The only real reason to be upset here is if you are attempting to play an outcast contrary to very clear, explicitly stated guidelines given upon creating the character - and then you have no one to be upset with but yourself.

The argument that it stymies RP is predicated on an assumption of its own, that your fellow players are going to be jerks about it.

Arelith doesn't make policy decisions based on jerks- It removes them and keeps moving on. I've always considered that a benefit, not a drawback. The argument that a tag that causes people to RP an outcast with the gravitas they agreed to upon creation will allow jerks to do bad things is ultimately faulty because jerks will ruin your RP with or without a tag - the tag still helps ensure outcasts are played in a manner the setting deems "appropriate."

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:00 am The argument that it stymies RP is predicated on an assumption of its own, that your fellow players are going to be jerks about it.

No, I'm arguing that the new system requires metagaming to function in the first place. For someone to understand the crimes of a PC they haven't met so well to recognize them on sight is metagaming.

MoreThanThree wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:08 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:00 am The argument that it stymies RP is predicated on an assumption of its own, that your fellow players are going to be jerks about it.

No, I'm arguing that the new system requires metagaming to function in the first place. For someone to understand the crimes of a PC they haven't met so well to recognize them on sight is metagaming.

...Hypothetically speaking, tomorrow, if you met, say, Bill Clinton in a restaurant (readers may feel free to replace this with any nation's leader involved in a scandal that they're more familiar with) tomorrow, would you recognize him, even though you'd never met him?

If you met Herr Adolf, resurrected by some malicious unholy force, would you recognize him, still short and sporting the stashe whilst angrily waving his hand in the air?

This example is bordering on ludicrous, so I'll wrap it up - as extreme as the above examples may be, what other level of infamy do you expect to justify the notion that every commoner on the surface reviles your character on sight and has something awful to say about you?

If I took this as anything while playing an outcast character, I would take it as a challenge to justify my infamy by level two - and also take a moment to enjoy and remember the fact that a level 2 PC class character is still leaps and bounds above most Faerunian's capabilities. Get creative. Come up with an atrocity - it doesn't have to be large-scale. The server has a PG-13 setting, but this is a very vague line and dancing on the correct side of it, closely but tastefully, is something that can be rewarding here - cautiously.

Putting it in shorter, modern terms, sometimes you just go so viral that everyone does know. That's an outcast. Sign up or not, but it's a little harder to ignore now, which was clearly the point.

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:20 am

MoreThanThree wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:08 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:00 am The argument that it stymies RP is predicated on an assumption of its own, that your fellow players are going to be jerks about it.

No, I'm arguing that the new system requires metagaming to function in the first place. For someone to understand the crimes of a PC they haven't met so well to recognize them on sight is metagaming.

...Hypothetically speaking, tomorrow, if you met, say, Bill Clinton in a restaurant (readers may feel free to replace this with any nation's leader involved in a scandal that they're more familiar with) tomorrow, would you recognize him, even though you'd never met him?

If you met Herr Adolf, resurrected by some malicious unholy force, would you recognize him, still short and sporting the stashe whilst angrily waving his hand in the air?

This example is bordering on ludicrous, so I'll wrap it up - as extreme as the above examples may be, what other level of infamy do you expect to justify the notion that every commoner on the surface reviles your character on sight and has something awful to say about you?

If I took this as anything while playing an outcast character, I would take it as a challenge to justify my infamy by level two - and also take a moment to enjoy and remember the fact that a level 2 PC class character is still leaps and bounds above most Faerunian's capabilities. Get creative. Come up with an atrocity - it doesn't have to be large-scale. The server has a PG-13 setting, but this is a very vague line and dancing on the correct side of it, closely but tastefully, is something that can be rewarding here - cautiously.

Putting it in shorter, modern terms, sometimes you just go so viral that everyone does know. That's an outcast. Sign up or not, but it's a little harder to ignore now, which was clearly the point.

So, with the vast poplation of human outcasts in the Underdark currently ... we are supposed to believe each of them has comitted a huge atrocity which is believable from a PC level 2 and onwards?
I think that is highly unlikely and I really don't feel well about this weird change.

Furthermore, yes. Those examples are ludicrous. Not just bordering on it.

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:20 am

MoreThanThree wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:08 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:00 am The argument that it stymies RP is predicated on an assumption of its own, that your fellow players are going to be jerks about it.

No, I'm arguing that the new system requires metagaming to function in the first place. For someone to understand the crimes of a PC they haven't met so well to recognize them on sight is metagaming.

...Hypothetically speaking, tomorrow, if you met, say, Bill Clinton in a restaurant (readers may feel free to replace this with any nation's leader involved in a scandal that they're more familiar with) tomorrow, would you recognize him, even though you'd never met him?

If you met Herr Adolf, resurrected by some malicious unholy force, would you recognize him, still short and sporting the stashe whilst angrily waving his hand in the air?

This example is bordering on ludicrous, so I'll wrap it up - as extreme as the above examples may be, what other level of infamy do you expect to justify the notion that every commoner on the surface reviles your character on sight and has something awful to say about you?

If I took this as anything while playing an outcast character, I would take it as a challenge to justify my infamy by level two - and also take a moment to enjoy and remember the fact that a level 2 PC class character is still leaps and bounds above most Faerunian's capabilities. Get creative. Come up with an atrocity - it doesn't have to be large-scale. The server has a PG-13 setting, but this is a very vague line and dancing on the correct side of it, closely but tastefully, is something that can be rewarding here - cautiously.

Putting it in shorter, modern terms, sometimes you just go so viral that everyone does know. That's an outcast. Sign up or not, but it's a little harder to ignore now, which was clearly the point.

The examples given are especially true ... Well, because it IS big-scaled. If you are taking RL to compare, nobody would recognized your friendly serial-killer, or most of criminals, even the most awful ones, really.
Kind of leads towards your outcast needs to have done something of large-scale.

Otherwise the argument solves some points, but still doesn't solve points 1) and 2) that I exposed previously, which are :
1) What of the characters who have done things on the mainland, and that fled to Arelith UD because of that ?
2) I find it of poor taste that each and every outcast can pretend having done things on Arelith that were never RPed out. I.e : My example with murder rampage in Cordor.

It would make a lot more sense if outcasts were identified by some manner of brand, tatoo or scarification, like pirates, rather than just by innately knowing the facial features (but not name) of every criminal scum of the sword coast.

Nitro wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:14 am It would make a lot more sense if outcasts were identified by some manner of brand, tatoo or scarification, like pirates, rather than just by innately knowing the facial features (but not name) of every criminal scum of the sword coast.

Well, yes?
But that is for the players to RP and give a reasoning hook to be identified. That's why the description is vague and not a "this character has a super generic X on his forehead, like every other outcast". It's up to the players to justify their own infamity, and it's part of the contract you accept when you decide to play an Outcast character. It's your responsibility to portray your own character in that regard, and if you aren't doing that, I don't think you actually wanted to play an outcast, to begin with.

This is what a large number of people in this thread fail to understand. You are not supposed to be super ultra duper sikret, you are supposed to wear a flag in a way that allows other characters to recognize you, and the inability of the players in the past to wear that flag is what has led to the dev team implementing the automatic description. The rest of the characters are not supposed to metagame, the Outcast is supposed to be easily recognized.

And I get that a lot of people may not have realized that this was the intention of the background in the past, and it sucks lemons to have to change concept or alter a character to fit a vision that may not be your own. But this is where we are now. And instead of bemoaning how it sucks, we can adapt to the change, cut loses, and retain what is fun for us in the game.

Disclaimer: General you. I'm not calling out anybody here.

Ice is definitely correct. Outcasts technically have wanted posters ALREADY posted about on the surface of Arelith when they land in Andunor. This means that the latest changes are super on point and it's up to US as PLAYERS to adjust and FIX our RP to match the vision that the Arelith Dev Team + DMs have.

Just to add an example that actually happened to this thread, here's my story of meeting an outcast:

- Playing a new arrival to Andunor, have been there for a few real life days and playing the character as a recent arrival looking to settle in the city.

- Read on forums that Outcasts are now automatically recognisable as such.

- Same day, encounter a character with Outcast text in description. Vendor addresses that character as "Devilspawn"

- As a new player, I am unsure how to process this but from the "what you see is what you get" rule along with the new Outcast rule I guess I technically now know that this character is a wanted Tiefling, even though I have never encountered the character before?

Sartain wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:45 pm Just to add an example that actually happened to this thread, here's my story of meeting an outcast:

- Playing a new arrival to Andunor, have been there for a few real life days and playing the character as a recent arrival looking to settle in the city.

- Read on forums that Outcasts are now automatically recognisable as such.

- Same day, encounter a character with Outcast text in description. Vendor addresses that character as "Devilspawn"

- As a new player, I am unsure how to process this but from the "what you see is what you get" rule along with the new Outcast rule I guess I technically now know that this character is a wanted Tiefling, even though I have never encountered the character before?

Vendor addresses that character as "Devilspawn" is a knew bug at the Drow merchant in the hub. it has been going on for eons of time, just haven't been fixed yet. she ain't suppose to say that.

Also welcome to Arelith!

Iceborn wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:17 pm Well, yes?
But that is for the players to RP and give a reasoning hook to be identified. That's why the description is vague and not a "this character has a super generic X on his forehead, like every other outcast". It's up to the players to justify their own infamity, and it's part of the contract you accept when you decide to play an Outcast character. It's your responsibility to portray your own character in that regard, and if you aren't doing that, I don't think you actually wanted to play an outcast, to begin with.

This is what a large number of people in this thread fail to understand. You are not supposed to be super ultra duper sikret, you are supposed to wear a flag in a way that allows other characters to recognize you, and the inability of the players in the past to wear that flag is what has led to the dev team implementing the automatic description. The rest of the characters are not supposed to metagame, the Outcast is supposed to be easily recognized.

And I get that a lot of people may not have realized that this was the intention of the background in the past, and it sucks lemons to have to change concept or alter a character to fit a vision that may not be your own. But this is where we are now. And instead of bemoaning how it sucks, we can adapt to the change, cut loses, and retain what is fun for us in the game.

Disclaimer: General you. I'm not calling out anybody here.

Well, do you expect every outcast to put an identifying mark or snippet of meta information about people knowing their face/name in the description then? And what about when you come across one who hasn't done that, ask each one of those in a tell what my character knows about their hideous crimes? Or just make stuff up I've supposedly heard about them on the spot? Or are you saying that the ones who don't should get a talking to from the DM's for not making it obvious how they're recognizable as an outcast at a glance?

I'm not arguing that they should be able to be secret or what have you, just that there be some IC justification given for why my character can so readily identify them as an outcast, like say a mark on the body. Otherwise it's just strange to go "Hey person, I don't know your name but I sure know you are scum of the earth!"

Nitro wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:09 pm

Iceborn wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:17 pm Well, yes?
But that is for the players to RP and give a reasoning hook to be identified. That's why the description is vague and not a "this character has a super generic X on his forehead, like every other outcast". It's up to the players to justify their own infamity, and it's part of the contract you accept when you decide to play an Outcast character. It's your responsibility to portray your own character in that regard, and if you aren't doing that, I don't think you actually wanted to play an outcast, to begin with.

This is what a large number of people in this thread fail to understand. You are not supposed to be super ultra duper sikret, you are supposed to wear a flag in a way that allows other characters to recognize you, and the inability of the players in the past to wear that flag is what has led to the dev team implementing the automatic description. The rest of the characters are not supposed to metagame, the Outcast is supposed to be easily recognized.

And I get that a lot of people may not have realized that this was the intention of the background in the past, and it sucks lemons to have to change concept or alter a character to fit a vision that may not be your own. But this is where we are now. And instead of bemoaning how it sucks, we can adapt to the change, cut loses, and retain what is fun for us in the game.

Disclaimer: General you. I'm not calling out anybody here.

Well, do you expect every outcast to put an identifying mark or snippet of meta information about people knowing their face/name in the description then? And what about when you come across one who hasn't done that, ask each one of those in a tell what my character knows about their hideous crimes? Or just make stuff up I've supposedly heard about them on the spot? Or are you saying that the ones who don't should get a talking to from the DM's for not making it obvious how they're recognizable as an outcast at a glance?

I'm not arguing that they should be able to be secret or what have you, just that there be some IC justification given for why my character can so readily identify them as an outcast, like say a mark on the body. Otherwise it's just strange to go "Hey person, I don't know your name but I sure know you are scum of the earth!"

Let me answer this in parts -
To start, yes. I would hazard to guess that every outcast is supposed to bear something that makes them instantly recognizable - the reality is that now we have a line of text that does this for the players, and it is not going away. So that means that if your disguise is blown, you need to have something ready for the other party to grasp as an actual roleplay hook. And in all fair honesty, if you don't make that yourself, other players are going to invent it and bullshit it to their own accord.

So this is what can happen:
Option 1) You attach a roleplay hook to the description to play your part as outcast in case if, and when you are irrevocably called out.
Option 2) You don't, you generate awkward, immersion-breaking moments, and instead we keep bumping this thread until Irongron - or the devs in general - come up again and says "okay. Here are some guidelines on what is expected of Outcasts", and I get to nicely write it down in the wiki.
Option 2++) After everything is written down, people is still complaining about how this infringes on their personal space and the way they play the game. And everybody is aggravated for another 6 months. We keep adding outcast mechanics until we reach mechanic singularity and we go back to this precise point in time where we move to option 3.
Option 3) You do nothing about it. Some players adapt, some don't. The players that do continue to foster interesting roleplay and are held in higher regard and potentially subject to RPR increase, and those that don't eventually grow frustrated and move on to another concept.

The hints don't need to be OOC meta information. In our pseudo-medieval fantasy setting there are hundreds of ways to mark somebody as an "undesirable element" of society. Scars, markings, brands, demeanor, behavior, tendencies, heck - even magic and auras can do so much as to signal somebody out. It's not like we are devoid of options, and that so many players refuse to see it baffles me.

Seems pretty neat that outcasts get the pirate treatment. Makes sense. Then again, I guess some people are against it. Due to it being wierd, that everyone would know whom they are. I mean. Our characthers live in a world with magic, dragons and actual dungeons. So logic is not always something that can be applied. (Our worlds logic.) Besides. Outcasts are heinous people. Something that should be reflected somehow.

Seekeepeek wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:54 pm

Sartain wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:45 pm Just to add an example that actually happened to this thread, here's my story of meeting an outcast:

- Playing a new arrival to Andunor, have been there for a few real life days and playing the character as a recent arrival looking to settle in the city.

- Read on forums that Outcasts are now automatically recognisable as such.

- Same day, encounter a character with Outcast text in description. Vendor addresses that character as "Devilspawn"

- As a new player, I am unsure how to process this but from the "what you see is what you get" rule along with the new Outcast rule I guess I technically now know that this character is a wanted Tiefling, even though I have never encountered the character before?

Vendor addresses that character as "Devilspawn" is a knew bug at the Drow merchant in the hub. it has been going on for eons of time, just haven't been fixed yet. she ain't suppose to say that.

Also welcome to Arelith!

If you think Rithralia outing warlocks is bad, you should see Seril the bartender in the spider's web. He calls good drow vile surface elves, and it is distressingly easy for a closeted CG drow to accidently out themselves that way. He needs fixing, badly.

Iceborn wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:20 pm

Nitro wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:09 pm

Iceborn wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:17 pm Well, yes?
But that is for the players to RP and give a reasoning hook to be identified. That's why the description is vague and not a "this character has a super generic X on his forehead, like every other outcast". It's up to the players to justify their own infamity, and it's part of the contract you accept when you decide to play an Outcast character. It's your responsibility to portray your own character in that regard, and if you aren't doing that, I don't think you actually wanted to play an outcast, to begin with.

This is what a large number of people in this thread fail to understand. You are not supposed to be super ultra duper sikret, you are supposed to wear a flag in a way that allows other characters to recognize you, and the inability of the players in the past to wear that flag is what has led to the dev team implementing the automatic description. The rest of the characters are not supposed to metagame, the Outcast is supposed to be easily recognized.

And I get that a lot of people may not have realized that this was the intention of the background in the past, and it sucks lemons to have to change concept or alter a character to fit a vision that may not be your own. But this is where we are now. And instead of bemoaning how it sucks, we can adapt to the change, cut loses, and retain what is fun for us in the game.

Disclaimer: General you. I'm not calling out anybody here.

Well, do you expect every outcast to put an identifying mark or snippet of meta information about people knowing their face/name in the description then? And what about when you come across one who hasn't done that, ask each one of those in a tell what my character knows about their hideous crimes? Or just make stuff up I've supposedly heard about them on the spot? Or are you saying that the ones who don't should get a talking to from the DM's for not making it obvious how they're recognizable as an outcast at a glance?

I'm not arguing that they should be able to be secret or what have you, just that there be some IC justification given for why my character can so readily identify them as an outcast, like say a mark on the body. Otherwise it's just strange to go "Hey person, I don't know your name but I sure know you are scum of the earth!"

Let me answer this in parts -
To start, yes. I would hazard to guess that every outcast is supposed to bear something that makes them instantly recognizable - the reality is that now we have a line of text that does this for the players, and it is not going away. So that means that if your disguise is blown, you need to have something ready for the other party to grasp as an actual roleplay hook. And in all fair honesty, if you don't make that yourself, other players are going to invent it and bullshit it to their own accord.

So this is what can happen:
Option 1) You attach a roleplay hook to the description to play your part as outcast in case if, and when you are irrevocably called out.
Option 2) You don't, you generate awkward, immersion-breaking moments, and instead we keep bumping this thread until Irongron - or the devs in general - come up again and says "okay. Here are some guidelines on what is expected of Outcasts", and I get to nicely write it down in the wiki.
Option 2++) After everything is written down, people is still complaining about how this infringes on their personal space and the way they play the game. And everybody is aggravated for another 6 months. We keep adding outcast mechanics until we reach mechanic singularity and we go back to this precise point in time where we move to option 3.
Option 3) You do nothing about it. Some players adapt, some don't. The players that do continue to foster interesting roleplay and are held in higher regard and potentially subject to RPR increase, and those that don't eventually grow frustrated and move on to another concept.

The hints don't need to be OOC meta information. In our pseudo-medieval fantasy setting there are hundreds of ways to mark somebody as an "undesirable element" of society. Scars, markings, brands, demeanor, behavior, tendencies, heck - even magic and auras can do so much as to signal somebody out. It's not like we are devoid of options, and that so many players refuse to see it baffles me.

Basically, players that were already finely doing will do 1).
Players that were not will do 2), which will generate stupid PvP and awkward moments.
And all in a nutshell it leads to 3), option that basically means nothing changed.

I'm quite pessimistic about this, and I just don't get it.
Which is why I think an explanation to how we know people are outcasts should be provided, to reduce the bad moments stemming from 2).

Durvayas wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:32 pm
If you think Rithralia outing warlocks is bad, you should see Seril the bartender in the spider's web. He calls good drow vile surface elves, and it is distressingly easy for a closeted CG drow to accidently out themselves that way. He needs fixing, badly.

I don't think we've updated his conversation since the days of Udos, so yes - this is in need of a fix.

Durvayas wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:32 pm

Seekeepeek wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:54 pm

Sartain wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:45 pm Just to add an example that actually happened to this thread, here's my story of meeting an outcast:

- Playing a new arrival to Andunor, have been there for a few real life days and playing the character as a recent arrival looking to settle in the city.

- Read on forums that Outcasts are now automatically recognisable as such.

- Same day, encounter a character with Outcast text in description. Vendor addresses that character as "Devilspawn"

- As a new player, I am unsure how to process this but from the "what you see is what you get" rule along with the new Outcast rule I guess I technically now know that this character is a wanted Tiefling, even though I have never encountered the character before?

Vendor addresses that character as "Devilspawn" is a knew bug at the Drow merchant in the hub. it has been going on for eons of time, just haven't been fixed yet. she ain't suppose to say that.

Also welcome to Arelith!

If you think Rithralia outing warlocks is bad, you should see Seril the bartender in the spider's web. He calls good drow vile surface elves, and it is distressingly easy for a closeted CG drow to accidently out themselves that way. He needs fixing, badly.

Well I naturally decided to ignore that part anyway because it's silly. I did stalk the guy for a while, and approached another player regarding the outcast-ness IC'ly but he kinda brushed it off, guess he didn't care or thought I was being silly myself, or whatnot. I just wanted to know if there was coin to be had

I only have one problem with the Outcast tag.

It is gamifying the game further, and if we continue down this path we will soon be playing Alliance vs Horde since we all know what faction people belong to from right click examine and not from actually interacting with that character.

I'm going to always be against adding more meta elements to the game, especially when they aren't working in accordance to a character's knowledge and abilities. Even if you're going the route that everyone has their face everywhere in wanted posters, I'm sure pirates have wanted posters as well, but you at least need to pass a lore check to find out they are a pirate via their tattoo.

If we're going to implement an outcast tag to enforce outcasts being treated like outcasts then I'd prefer something along the lines of the Pirate Tattoos than just an OOC marker in your character description even if you're fully covered in armor and the other person can't see who you are.

This should also be a two way street. UDers should be able to see who's a surfacer, or you're going to encourage the same thing that's apparently currently happening in Sencliff with a rise of inkless pirates. You're also going to start seeing plenty of pseudo-outcast surfacers who learn UC through a phrasebook and just hang out below and above with no consequence.

Edit: There's another thing I'd like to add.

Let's for a moment think about it being a reputation thing as well. Someone in the thread mentioned Hitler.

Hitler is the equivalent of having Epic Reputation. The FR equivalent of Hitler, is Larloch or Belpheron.

Belpheron is the kind of lich that can't step out of his demi-plane without an army of mages teleporting to him and casting Undeath to Death until he cries for mommy.

You can't expect a level 3 character to have the kind of reputation to be universaly reviled straight out the gate, especially if what he did to become an outcast happened off island.

Although not ideal, I would prefer that surface races had to EARN the outcast tag rather than be able to start as one. You'd fix the issue that andunor has with having more human than monstrous characters, and then being an outcast would actually make sense, since you're probably exiled from 4-5 settlements at that point.

My issue with a phyisical representation of outcast status such as a forced brand on an outcast pc is that it retroactively disfigures all of them, in a way that they did not sign up for, and cannot be removed IG. People who made outcasts in the past, signed up to rp being an outcast, not disfigurement.

It also implies that the outcast was at some point in time held captive by the law, and instead of executing them for their grave offence, simply branded (or something similar) and sent them off to commit more evil. I imagine alot of characters, my own included became an outcast by fleeing after committing a serious crime, to avoid execution.

Adding physical representation to signify outcast status would retroactively disfigure them, as well as force me to try and explain why a LG nation did not execute him for several murders, and betrayals.

If they became in game mechanical brands. It would just create further disdain with the divide between "What you see is what you get." and the basic logic that you can't see through clothes.

We'll just have to see what happens. I suspect some cities will need to have meetings about how they handle Outcasts now.

A practical suggestion might be something like have there be a lore check needed to identify an outcast, one that starts high, and then decreases with each level, with the reasoning being that as the outcasts level grows, more and more of the behavior he exhibited in the past will also be commited, and people will start to recognise/pay attention to him, even if they cannot exactly remember what his name was, or what he had done. While far from perfect even then, It makes far more sense to recognise a high level outcast at a glance, even if you dont remember their name, then it does a low level one.

Outcasts are outcasts because they have achieved a level of infamy in civilized surface lands, rather than because they have formed any habit of "frequenting Andunor". For this reason, it makes sense that members of civilized surface settlements would be able to identify them.

No.

In real life, infamous people go unnoticed all the time, even with their faces plastered everywhere in a digital world of cross-continental infamy. It took a full year for someone to notice Elisabeth Smart, and she was in the same city she was abducted from and literally EVERYONE was looking for this girl.

Outcast status is a dev-created construct that has no empirical backing in rp. Most of us have never even been to the settlements "where everybody knows your name and they're never glad you came." It does not make sense, but the concept of outcasts creates fun rp and it's enjoyable to play one. Things in a game or story don't have to make logical sense. If someone tells you this is how it is. It just is. It is a disk on the back of a turtle because the person in charge said so regardless of logic.

As a dev-created construct, you can create a hundred explanations and make claims that it makes perfect sense to you in the same way that flat-earthers can come up with a thousand reasons why the concept of a flat earth makes perfect sense. Doesn't mean it does.

So as for the Outcast change, an ooc solution to an ooc problem of players not abiding by the spirit of the law in regards to playing an outcast because someone or someones screwed it up and were lollygagging about in the Nomad buying ice cream while twirling their infamous curled mustachio.

It does nothing to solve the problem of surfacers wandering the UD as though Drow*Mart just opened and is having a sale on mushrooms, and it's not intended to.

As with all sweeping changes that are created because someone noticed that a small set of players are rowing the douche canoe and making life miserable for others, it's only going to target the one problem. If the surfacers in the UD become a problem as they did for a while when Andunor first came out, I'm sure there will be another sweeping change that adversely affects those players who were doing nothing wrong, but temporarily puts a bandage on what is really a player problem that won't end... it will just move locations.

Branding make no sense as a good flesh crafter or priest could remove it. Tats work for pirates because they CHOOSE to have that mark.

NOW if you wish to have a tattoo be a means that the Underdark imposed upon a human outcast in order to reside there so they could be distinguished from others who were not easily-recognizable by their race... and all humans who did not bear this mark were also recognizable... you would solve BOTH problems and it actually would make sense. But this doesn't need to be dev-imposed. Players can do this just fine on their own just as they were managing outcasts just fine via rp, exile, and working with their spies to discover who is an outcast.

The concept of what an outcast is has always been kind of obvious. I mean it's in the name.

The argument of 'whoa, whoa, whoa – you mean if I play an outcast, part of my rp has to be that I'm an outcast?' is a bit like saying, 'Whoa- you mean if I play a Slave, you mean I have to be enslaved to someone(s)?'

It was always kinda on the tin, and I think the team always presumed and hoped that people would respect that. Would respect that they wouldn't be entirely welcomed on the surface, that they would be, well, outcast. And whilst some did, I think a lot did not. Or treated it less as a 'Outcast' and more as a 'Incast', someone who was entirely welcome both in the Underdark and on the Surface.

The argument, 'Oh but the thing I was outcast for didn't happen on Arelith, so why do people know?' Is a bit like saying, 'Oh but my Undead are -nice- undead! They chose to be this so I'm a nice person!' or 'Oh but I was forced into a pact with a Demon! Forced! So why are you being bad to me?' or 'Oh but my Fey pact is with NICE fey!' or 'Oh my Paladin is actually a Grey Guard, so he doesn't need to be lawful good.' or 'Oh but my Slave is super powerful so he doesn't need to do what anyone tells him to do.' Or any other number of 'I want to have my cake and eat it too.'

If your characters 'outcastness' is such that he or she is fine on Arelith, and entirely unknown... then that's not a problem! Roll up a surfacer. Sorted.

“It is gamifying the game further, and if we continue down this path we will soon be playing Alliance vs Horde since we all know what faction people belong to from right click examine and not from actually interacting with that character.

I see where this comes from. On the other hand, if you want to play an evil character who's presence can't be detected...

Don't make an outcast.

Sorted

The argument that it's a little weird how people are now 'marked' as Outcasts – how it's odd that people are suddenly able to spot them, when they couldn't before – All those points about how strange it is that you can meet someone in the middle of the desert, and suddenly 'know' that they are an outcast just because they're a member of another settlement?

These are actually very valid points. And I do sympathise. It is a little weird. And maybe some day in the future the team will come up with a different, more immersive way of allowing outcast recognition.

The issue however is that without such a marking, one of the key parts of what the background was meant to be (Outcast, clue is once more in the name) was difficult to mechanically enforce and show.

This seems to be at least the easiest way of doing things and also maybe the least mechanically impacting. It perhaps wasn't fair, from a DMs perspective, that we were expecting surface settlments to show the correct amount of distrust for outcast characters when, in fairness, there was simply little way of surface characters even knowing who was an outcast. Or to expect outcast characters to actually roleplay their situation, without some mechanical aid. Is this the most eloquent and reasonble? No, probably not. But it's what we have now.

As for how to roleplay the Outcast Tag? My suggestion (and it is only a suggestion) is to presume it's a bit like a vauge but bad rumour you heard around town.
'Oye, that girl? That one with the blond hair? Yeah... she's -wierd-. I dunno what she did, but they say she got kicked out of her old town. Did something terrible. I dunno what.'
Rumours from the npcs whispered about basicaly. A shifty look about someone.
Maybe you can approach someone with 'Hrn. I think I heard Reginii muttering something about you as you went past. What's your story friend?'
Or maybe outcast players could add something in their descriptions.
There's a few options to make something of this, to actually play the concept of -Outcast-.

Again... there's literally no logical way to explain it from an ic perspective. There just isn't.

But then we can kinda say that for most sweeping changes. It would be lovely if players would just rp what their race is and not try to be Casper the friendly drow or the tiefling with a heart of gold who's now suffering from 21st century racial profiling in the ever-bigotted town of Cordor. It'd also be great if players didn't insinuate they were going to rape you via rp. And it would be fantastic to be able to engage in PvP without receiving a barrage of tells.

But we rp with other humans -- who behave as humans often do. So rules have to be invented and mechanical functions have to be employed that make no ic sense and are punative to players who've legitimately been doing a great job of staying within the confines of their chosen race/path.

My dogs likely feel this same way about me putting them into the kennel when I'm gone. Yes, it's unfair to the one who doesn't poop on the floor that she too has to go into the kennel. But separating them out just creates a situation where they sit there barking at each other.

To all the good dogs out there... yeah, this sucks for you and I feel bad.

Another fix to the issue :

Finally lock outcasts behind a reward.

At that point it would be mandatory for people to have real investment into their characters, come up with a backstory and be creative.

Plus they'd have plenty of time to think about what crime was heinous enough to get them banished from society but also not be something that makes you wonder "how did that level 5 wizard eradicate an entire town again?"

Also, to GrumpyCat.
Don't all fresh characters in the Underdark start out on a boat, migrating to Andunor? How come people on Arelith then always know about an outcast being an outcast?