New Item Concerns!

[Peppermint]

I've personally really never been big on the WordOfFaith and Timestop meta in combat.

I hate to cherrypick. I know you're getting at something a little broader here, but statements like these bother me because they betray an ignorance that seems to pervade even Arelith's leadership.

We are not in Timestop meta. We have not been in Timestop meta for years. That was nerfed long ago. Timestop is no longer very good for mundanes, except in clutch scenarios to counter a mage's Timestop or maybe to set up a True Strike flurry. (This rarely happens.)

It concerns me deeply when changes are made or lobbied for based on information that is years old.

[Cortex]

Or WoF cast from scrolls. Ever since SR items started to be added, people have used them less and less.

[Peppermint]

Just found this one in a player shop.



(Interestingly, the CL cap of Mordenkainen's Disjunction on Arelith is 22. The 26 here is meaningless. Either Disjunction is slated for a buff, or the developer in question is not familiar with Arelith's spell changes.)

[Zavandar]

>dont like that everyone uses mords scrolls
>add +20 throwing axes that have mords that everyone can use

Are we just doing this to save some trees or something

Is arelith becoming eco friendly

[Nitro]

Actual +20 loot. Wow, if I had the inclination and time I'd go back in the forums and dig out the exact time where Irongron assured everyone that HAK's would not bring a ton of poorly balanced shotgun updates that just threw every new shiny thing at the wall. Because that's exactly what's happening right now, like everyone skeptical of HAK's predicted it would.

[Irongron]

Just found this one in a player shop.

There should be no more than 3 or 4 those pairs total, in game. No amount of farming will change that, and as with all such items, once used they are gone forever. They are neither craftable, nor in the loot matrix, so don't draw wrong conclusions from seeing one.

I should add to this that even those single stack items that were in the matrix were removed yesterday due to a bug where they appeared in stacks larger than 1.

The rods however (WoF & Disjuction) are in (rare) matrix until spell update is released.

[Peppermint]

Color me confused, then. I see one of two possibilities here:

1. These items were added in a deliberate one-off bid to agitate the playerbase further and spark community backlash.

2. These items were added as part of what will become part of an ongoing trend (i.e. one offs in the loot chest), which will still allow players to stockpile in the long term.

[Dr. B]

The rods however (WoF & Disjuction) are in (rare) matrix until spell update is released.

This sounds like something it might be good to get wide feedback on before releasing.

[Zavandar]

There should be no more than 3 or 4 those pairs total, in game. No amount of farming will change that, and as with all such items, once used they are gone forever. They are neither craftable, nor in the loot matrix, so don't draw wrong conclusions from seeing one.

I'm a little confused by this

It is wrong to assume things will remain in the loot matrix beyond four drops?

I'm legit sorry if I am seeming facetious; I want to understand

[Aren]

Why is it in the game to begin with?
What is even going on?

Sorry, but I am having a really hard time understanding the direction in which you’re taking your server. And I don’t want to entertain hyperbole or alarmism, but at this rate, I’m afraid that Arelith is heading the same way as Amia.

[a1b2]

Why is it in the game to begin with?
What is even going on?

Sorry, but I am having a really hard time understanding the direction in which you’re taking your server. And I don’t want to entertain hyperbole or alarmism, but at this rate, I’m afraid that Arelith is heading the same way as Amia.

THIS. Can we get the over arching goal/concept that is being aimed at from admin so we can understand the direction better? At this point its entirely unknown and things that are entirely on concept may be taken as horrible changes. When the reality is that the direction we are going will end up making the specific change make more sense.

[Irongron]

There should be no more than 3 or 4 those pairs total, in game. No amount of farming will change that, and as with all such items, once used they are gone forever. They are neither craftable, nor in the loot matrix, so don't draw wrong conclusions from seeing one.

I'm a little confused by this

It is wrong to assume things will remain in the loot matrix beyond four drops?

I'm legit sorry if I am seeming facetious; I want to understand

Right now, until loot system is reworked, powerful items in loot, on a fixed basis, is not possible. Most containers work by drawing on a pool of approximately 500 master items (on that server) so with players determined to farm, nothing can be particylarly rare.

For some years now; therefore, items get swapped in and out relatively frequently, sometimes even for DM events (such as a Dwarven axe some years ago). This is done in preference of giving items to particular players for obvious reasons, but also just to give a player the joy of discovering something special.

In an ideal world I would do this far more often, but I dont really gave time. In this case some existing and new dismissal/disjunction items were added/readded, some for a short time, others for far longer, though it remains the case - if you dont want something to be farmed it CANNOT be left in loot (especially weapons and armour which due due their often larger models cannot be kept rare)

We added these new 'special' chests to help with this issue, but ultimately need an entirely new system that does not just rely on a random factor, but tracks what items that player had found in the past, and adjusts accordingly.

In retrospect though, this was clearly the wrong time to do this. I did state the other day on the rod thread that these items would not be there to be farmed, but the message didn't get through, and led to an even deeper sense of confusion.

[Nitro]

So, the +10 ones are removed from the matrix now as well? or are those still there? What about the stacks of 100 arrows with lesser spell breach on them?

[NauVaseline]

This still has the inherent problem of requiring people to get lucky on a loot roll in order to (nuclearly) counterplay against common classes.

[Irongron]

So, the +10 ones are removed from the matrix now as well? or are those still there? What about the stacks of 100 arrows with lesser spell breach on them?

There are no arrows with lesser spell breach, but bolts of disjunction, stack size 2 (not 100), (I do recall an old breach arrow) entirely removed, and a +10 sonic lance, that was also removed, in both cases because seemingly server doesn't respond well to single thrown and ammunition in the matrix, and their appearance in stacks (in a few cases) was very much a snafu.

As I indicated on the rod thread the more powerful rods too will be (mostly) removed just as soon as the next related update is ready.

[TimeAdept]

I would really have to caution against a loot system that isn't pure RNG. It's the fairest way to ensure the economy isn't affected negatively by the results of a hidden, unseeable, uninteractable script. It also strains believability, by messing with drops, and leads to an overall negative player experience. The only time I've seen "tailored" loot drops work well is in the game Grim Dawn, which adjusts drops per individual session specifically for legendary set items, to avoid you seeing the same Legendary Set boots, or helm 3 times in a row for example - but this isn't equivalent to what Arelith does with its loot or magical items. Because of that, a pure RNG distribution is the way to go, with limited based on item availability and number of chests that draw from that particular pool of items.

I'm not really sure what you mean by the inability of weapons and armor to remain rare due to their models. Does your loot system seed iems based upon the number of inventory squares an item takes up, disporportionaly favoring armor and two handed weapons?

In the end, I think what most voices are calling for is a timeline of what changes are actually happening, and a way to see the results on a test server or PGCC before they go live. There's a difference between meta changing patches in games, and what's happening right now in the server, which feels like constant whiplash every 24 hours, as everyone constantly lives in "horror" of their characters becoming mechanically "useless", or swing the other way to nigh godhood, and it creates anxiety and a lack of desire to play, especially if your character might be involved in conflict roleplay at the moment.

In short: Could we, uh, maybe see the patchnotes for that spell update, say, 48 hours before they go live? Or put them on PGCC first? Like as a test?

Please?

[Scylon]

So, the +10 ones are removed from the matrix now as well? or are those still there? What about the stacks of 100 arrows with lesser spell breach on them?

There are no arrows with lesser spell breach, but bolts of disjunction, stack size 2 (not 100), (I do recall an old breach arrow) entirely removed, and a +10 sonic lance, that was also removed, in both cases because seemingly server doesn't respond well to single thrown and ammunition in the matrix, and their appearance in stacks (in a few cases) was very much a snafu.

As I indicated on the rod thread the more powerful rods too will be (mostly) removed just as soon as the next related update is ready.

I can't understand these items? Why did you decouple the ability for people to use scrolls from UMD, only to put items in the game that require no investment at all? You made steep costs for lore, but they are meaningless now.

[Irongron]

So, the +10 ones are removed from the matrix now as well? or are those still there? What about the stacks of 100 arrows with lesser spell breach on them?

There are no arrows with lesser spell breach, but bolts of disjunction, stack size 2 (not 100), (I do recall an old breach arrow) entirely removed, and a +10 sonic lance, that was also removed, in both cases because seemingly server doesn't respond well to single thrown and ammunition in the matrix, and their appearance in stacks (in a few cases) was very much a snafu.

As I indicated on the rod thread the more powerful rods too will be (mostly) removed just as soon as the next related update is ready.

I can't understand these items? Why did you decouple the ability for people to use scrolls from UMD, only to put items in the game that require no investment at all? You made steep costs for lore, but they are meaningless now.

I honestly didn't see an issue with single stack dispel items, though I just checked the module and it seems there are some far older 'Anti-Magic' bolts/arrows, with lesser breach in the matrix, which I presumed were those being mentioned above, these along with the relatively common 'Gems of Nullification' (Mord item) were both in the matrix for a great many years I think, and with the former appearing in relatively large stacks. These are not a response to the update, but possibly more noticeable due to their increased utility.

[ImWithThisGuy]

Well. Because I see this thread being locked soon due to behavior, I just feel the desire to post one more time.


I'll start with saying that while I'm not exceedingly mechanically savvy, I would say that I'm at least competent. Despite that, I'm in full support of the UMD changes. UMD in the past has been a keystone in mechanics, simply due to the versatility it provides. However, with that versatility came high power scrolls that had effects that were unable to be countered. Each made openly available to effectively all characters for very, very small investment.

The reason I support the changes is because those High power scrolls have always at one point or another, dominated the meta. They supported, and I would even say they encouraged a competitive environment. Arelith has the ability to cater to a wide player-base, but those that were interested in winning would always be using (Enter top pvp scroll here), meaning players that are not as competitive are subverted. While I don't like the phrase, I admit it's always felt to me like a "I Must win" action, to use (enter top pvp scroll here). Rods are very much the same with their own set of added issues, sadly.

While I don't support rods myself I think they were added to appease the booing. Tools are always needed to deal with different enemies, whether in PvE or PvP. So rods were added to give people a chance. After-all, nobody should be expected to stand there and let themselves be beaten. But it has become more and more common for players to expect themselves (or people in general) to be able to beat others. This is a terrible imbalance.

In an attempt to correct the disparity of power, hyperbolic statements on the forums have drawn attention to problems in the worst way, leaving people pressing emergency buttons. In this case adding Rods and Mords items. Ideally, I would prefer foundations be set for a system before the system is implemented, that way there are fewer issues created, But what's done is done. I only know I will prefer the functions of UMD now more than I ever did before. They just need a bit of tweaking.

[Twily]

I honestly didn't see an issue with single stack dispel items, though I just checked the module and it seems there are some far older 'Anti-Magic' bolts/arrows, with lesser breach in the matrix, which I presumed were those being mentioned above, these along with the relatively common 'Gems of Nullification' (Mord item) were both in the matrix for a great many years I think, and with the former appearing in relatively large stacks. These are not a response to the update, but possibly more noticeable due to their increased utility.

That's a very fair point, and not one I had thought of. Those gems were definitely in for a very long time.

[Peppermint]

Those gems could not be cast six times a round and did not do damage when launched.

Not the same thing at all.

[Zavandar]

Well. Because I see this thread being locked soon due to behavior, I just feel the desire to post one more time.


I'll start with saying that while I'm not exceedingly mechanically savvy, I would say that I'm at least competent. Despite that, I'm in full support of the UMD changes. UMD in the past has been a keystone in mechanics, simply due to the versatility it provides. However, with that versatility came high power scrolls that had effects that were unable to be countered. Each made openly available to effectively all characters for very, very small investment.

The reason I support the changes is because those High power scrolls have always at one point or another, dominated the meta. They supported, and I would even say they encouraged a competitive environment. Arelith has the ability to cater to a wide player-base, but those that were interested in winning would always be using (Enter top pvp scroll here), meaning players that are not as competitive are subverted. While I don't like the phrase, I admit it's always felt to me like a "I Must win" action, to use (enter top pvp scroll here). Rods are very much the same with their own set of added issues, sadly.

While I don't support rods myself I think they were added to appease the booing. Tools are always needed to deal with different enemies, whether in PvE or PvP. So rods were added to give people a chance. After-all, nobody should be expected to stand there and let themselves be beaten. But it has become more and more common for players to expect themselves (or people in general) to be able to beat others. This is a terrible imbalance.

In an attempt to correct the disparity of power, hyperbolic statements on the forums have drawn attention to problems in the worst way, leaving people pressing emergency buttons. In this case adding Rods and Mords items. Ideally, I would prefer foundations be set for a system before the system is implemented, that way there are fewer issues created, But what's done is done. I only know I will prefer the functions of UMD now more than I ever did before. They just need a bit of tweaking.

i don't see how these changes removed "must win actions" at all. instead of top scroll, it's top rod, or to drop. the DYNAMIC hasn't shifted. the META has, and in an unhealthy way.

a healthy meta is actually conducive to RP. when monks were imbalanced and literally saying "i can't lose, i'm a monk", and when DMs had to adjust the stats of event NPCs to compensate for unkillable monks, and when people would never confront monk characters because they were that busted, it's bad.

the server was much more balanced before these changes went in. this phobia of scrolls is just going to be replaced with something else when people realize that conflict is going to persist and new, grossly OP builds surface. like i said, barb/fighter/wm is going to rise up. that is not a build that wants to wait for you to RP. that is a build that will kill you in a round and will stun you during that round in an instant action. it could do that before, but at the cost of umd. now it has rods and scrolls at its disposal.

THIS is a terrible imbalance

you complain about UMD being a keystone in mechanics. now it's just going to be drops. what you've wanted hasn't meaningfully changed anything, least of all for the better

[Dr. B]

I'll start with saying that while I'm not exceedingly mechanically savvy, I would say that I'm at least competent.

Color me skeptical of your self-assessment here. You wrote this...

However, with that versatility came high power scrolls that had effects that were unable to be countered.

...which is false. The "Big Three" were Disjunction, Time Stop, and Word of Faith (Disjunction especially). All of them had counters.

Disjunction's breach effect could be countered by making yourself untargetable in various ways, or by blinding your opponent.

Time Stop could be countered by setting off another Time Stop at the same time.

Word of Faith could be countered through Spell Resistance, Mantles, and potions of Remove Blindness/Deafness.

There were other counters besides these.

[Scylon]

I honestly didn't see an issue with single stack dispel items, though I just checked the module and it seems there are some far older 'Anti-Magic' bolts/arrows, with lesser breach in the matrix, which I presumed were those being mentioned above, these along with the relatively common 'Gems of Nullification' (Mord item) were both in the matrix for a great many years I think, and with the former appearing in relatively large stacks. These are not a response to the update, but possibly more noticeable due to their increased utility.

I don't think gems were ever in question, as they are (from my understanding) truly rare. This is likely why I have never really seen them brought up.

What has been discussed at length is the addition of the rods, which completely undo the changes to UMD/Lore and the (from everyone perspective at least) the appearance of all these anti mage items that don't seem like they will be hard to acquire in large numbers.

[Polokko]

I did state the other day on the rod thread that these items would not be there to be farmed, but the message didn't get through, and led to an even deeper sense of confusion.

I've been told there is already someone with two rods of Greater Ruin. They have been farmed. Two free epic spells this character can use in the same combat on top of everything else they can do, with no feat investment, all because they've been grinding. This is a big problem.