Arelith

Ork wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:32 pm #1 really hasn't been happening. There's been a few posts with people asking for clarification of mechanics as opposed to "you're wrong", and that clarification rarely happens. Mechanics use to be concealed behind the curtain, and for a long time Arelith players were left bereft of any good mechanical understanding of NWN. The pendulum swung to where mechanic advice was given freely, and a lot of players benefited from this time of relative balance, and now the pendulum swings back.

I think and hope that there's an equilibrium here. I think there is room for people to gain mechanical understanding without the judgement of "unoptimal", but there is such a pervasive animosity to "min/max"ers and "powergamers" within the larger RP community that we'll never truly shake off those fallacies.

Highlighted for emphasis, just a reminder that the Stormwind Fallacy goes both ways. I've certainly seen people talk trash about build-optimizers, and I don't approve of that either, but in my experience some people who consider themselves "build-savvy" (certainly not all of them, but claiming it doesn't happen is just as false as claiming no one ever shouts down optimizers) are outright toxic towards people trying to put forward new builds or ideas that are outside the box.

The animosity here is perpetuated by both sides of this ancient fallacy. As often as you may see a thread pop up on "how this RP is wrong," I've seen just as many threads and conversations that dead end with "your idea is trash, you're trash, and you should feel bad for littering the community with your trash."

At the end of the day, both sides commit the greatest sin of not caring how their words make the other side of this cooperative experience feel, so it's little surprise to me that the progress-hindering dichotomy continues. The pendulum will certainly never shift back until these conversations become less hostile to each other.

I have rarely seen an educated and helpful mechanics-minded person act as you have said without there being an argument prior.

A lot of times people will come on the discord with an idea and ask for help. They receive that help but refuse to believe that expertise is good. Cue the circle reasoning until finally the person who's intention was to help has turned sour.

Now I'm not saying that some individuals would immediate comment, "trash build". But those individuals also wouldn't be individuals I would seek out for mechanics advice.

In truth, the conversations have to begin in good faith. The build-savvy individual wants to help, and the uniformed wants to learn. If either one or both aren't in that space, it won't succeed. Thankfully we do have individuals in this community that want to help, and have always wanted to help.

However help is contingent on the other party wanting to learn. If you are stuck on believing pureclass is the only way to play this game, or that silver palm is a worthy investment, and no arguement will dissuade you, you're engaging in that conversation in bad faith.

I'm not saying that you as an individual can't build sub-optimally, but players should be informed of those flaws and have made the choice willingly. That is why on these forums many have commented not to listen to some individuals' advice - they're giving bad advice and not equipping players with a choice to choose optimal vs sub-optimal.

It's just my personal opinion but i strongly believe that at least 70% of the times, that Optimal build is more important than RP build.
This is generally because RP can be build, along the way, even if you're using an Optimal build.
Whereas, if your build simply leans towards, the weaker side, you will find yourself sometimes, discouraged during unexpected PVP situation or "being intimated " situation whereby, even running off without dying is a luxury. This can happens sometime, along the road, towards your level 30 progress.

I've no idea if people do feel it before but sometimes, you will feel that you've already almost reached your maximum potential even before hitting level 30, say about level 23. Hence, it doesn't make too much difference in between level 23 to 30.
If this type of situation happens, i believed that most people will choose to roll that character away or simply mysteriously disappear.

That being said, i've no idea how many players that have probably played for several years, actually have a level 30 toons before. This is because that happens to me, i've played for about 10 years On and Off, it's only since last year that i've trained 2 character hitting level 30. I've actually rolled so many characters before they even reached the so-called "end build" since i've felt some discouragement along the progress.

My depressed situation isn't actually because of PVP but because my character seems to always have been wrecked in PVE through mostly solo attempts.
That had just been my situation, which may not apply to other people.

Edit : Then again, if a person have to revolve his build around 1 or 2 Feat that isn't suitable but have to be compulsory, the difference made usually, isn't that big unless the build itself, is a major problem, like i've actually fervently opposed a certain build in one of the post topic.

There is no such thing as an RP build.

Good builds and good RP are not in any way mutually exclusive.

More often than not, more than 80% of a player's online experience will be PvE, ...and likely more than half of it solo. Overall, you'll get more mileage out of a good build than an RP build*

In cases the above does not apply (yes, I know... there's a huge chunk of the playerbase who choose to have their characters never leave the town - and that's fine too!) enter the commoner class.





* using the term loosely, because in essence, there's no such thing as "RP build". There are good builds and there are bad builds and players are expected to RP their stats at all times.
That being said, the term "RP build" is usually used to justify a bad build, that's all there is to it.

garrbear758 wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:08 am There is no such thing as an RP build.

I don't agree on that. I know "RP build" somehow came to mean "intentionally bad choices for reasons" but there are what I would consider RP builds that favor RP toys over mechanical power. Scry on a cleric is the best example I can think of, you're giving up three feats you could really use on a class whose feats are in short supply but the RP potential makes it worth it. Playing a race and class combo whose stats don't synergize could be considered an RP build too.

That doesn't mean those characters have more integrity than someone who builds optimally (why wouldn't our characters follow proven paths to success? In RL athletes and soldiers follow well-established training programs that are known to work) or that they themselves shouldn't at least learn how to build successfully before breaking the rules, for quality of life if nothing else.

RP build is simply a build that follows the character's progress in game, has no plan, and has no priority in mechanical strength. That's the definition of 'RP build'. Are you a better player or a better RPer if you go for those, as opposed to a build with a plan and mechanical prowess? No, you're not - but it can be more FUN to some people. *shrug*

Well there’s a build that is suboptimal in order to rp a concept rather than optimize mechanical power. I’ve talked to many ppl that just want to do x or y (feat selection, weapon choice etc) because it fits their char, when it’s clearly Sub optimal. So while there are no “rp builds” and a good build or bad build does not dictate rp quality, there are people that build sub-optimally to be strictly adherent to a rp concept. I respect that, they have fun with it great. Don’t think it means that optimizing your build makes anyone a bad rper or vice versa.

Divine dips prob perfect example. Can I rp it well and/or rationalize it? Yah. Is it character first mechanics second? Maybe, maybe not? Sometimes there is a trade-off... there was never a doubt that my sorc was gonna do bg or pally dip. So I designed my char concept around that rather than the other way around. And I rp it just fine I think! I don’t think it’s a problem but it is a thing.

AstralUniverse wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:18 am RP build is simply a build that follows the character's progress in game, has no plan, and has no priority in mechanical strength. That's the definition of 'RP build'. Are you a better player or a better RPer if you go for those, as opposed to a build with a plan and mechanical prowess? No, you're not - but it can be more FUN to some people. *shrug*

That's not the absolute definition nor does it include the in-between you've now heard two examples of. Almost nobody meanders forward without a plan any more, this isn't 2006.