Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

[Aren]

I enjoy the update change myself. Drow were in kind of a rough place mechanically. Aside from the SR which leans more toward trivial late game, there wasn't really much flexibility in builds that could be done that an ECL 0 race could do with more in constitution or another stat. However, the reduction of the gifts in the ECL 0 races kind of puts them (especially non-humans) in the camp drow were in before the change to begin with so now they no longer have the flexibility drow now have (Especially with the racial gift of stat swapping being a thing).

Everything else is pretty much solid and delightful!

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

[Hunter548]

Significant nerf to human superiority. This changes everything.

I just want to address this since I've seen it said a couple of times.

Humans haven't been the unequivocal superior race for everything since like 2015. Humans are strong, but they're usually hovering around the second/third best race for every build rather than being the top option across the board like a lot of people claim.

If you can afford to give up a feat (And I can only thing of literally one build that I've never seen actually played that can't):

Dwarves are better for all non-dex/div hybrid builds (Either shield dwarf or gold dwarf, depending on if you want charisma or dexterity)
Wood Elves, Duergar and Sometimes Half Orcs are better str melee
Halflings, Moon Elves and sometimes Wild Elves are better dex characters
Orogs are better strength div builds
Gnomes, Dwarves, and sometimes Sun Elves are better mages

Humans are common because they've got no baggage attached. There's no pre-conception of what a human "should" be because they're so culturally varied compared to the other base races.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

...

This is mostly not true. It is not the first time gifts have been reworked for the worse, at some point 3 Major gifts were possible. Just have a look at this thread: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=16413&p=137577

The argument then was the same as you made, that no one would ever retire these characters. They may not have been rolled, but they aren't active anymore for the most part.

3 to2 gifts is 33% loss. 2 to 1 is 50% lost.

That's not even the main problem. The main problem is how ecl + 1 races or higher lost no power.

[NauVaseline]

Hard disagree with Hunter, extra feat is uber powerful.

Thoughts on the update after sleeping...

1) Drow needed the gift for versatilities sake. Nobody was really playing them because other races could do what they could do better for less ecl and you were shoehorned into a couple of builds. It felt like someone who hated Drow made the change that led them to that point.
2) The rest of the gift changes put Drow way over the top. Rather than equalizing things, you threw them out of balance.
3) I'm not really surprised by #2.
4) There is a bit of a case to nerfing Humans by stripping a gift from them but not a big one as they should be encouraged to be the most populous.
5) If this were to be done it should've been done only to Humans, but honestly I will reiterate I do not think the case for nerfing them is that solid.
6) A lot of character archetype's are no longer possible.

[Itikar]

Also a side-problem, at least for drow, is again that there were less disruptive way to correct the supposed imbalance at least for the current population.

99% of the current drow and svirfneblin are now mechanically out-dated, even if minorly, and this is bad on such a large scale. Even just giving an extra minor or a choice between gift of tongues or devotion would certainly go a long way to make this more bearable for the current drow or deep gnomes.

I get that remake is still possible, and that encouraging people to retire characters is a desire of the design team, but really when something like this happens on such a large scale, I struggle to think that there was really no way to do this in a less disruptive way.

Again I would personally have preferred a buff that both affected all drow, not just new ones, and was more in line with their racials from tabletop.

[Hunter548]

Hard disagree with Hunter, extra feat is uber powerful.

Thoughts on the update after sleeping...

1) Drow needed the gift for versatilities sake. Nobody was really playing them because other races could do what they could do better for less ecl and you were shoehorned into a couple of builds. It felt like someone who hated Drow made the change that led them to that point.
2) The rest of the gift changes put Drow way over the top. Rather than equalizing things, you threw them out of balance.
3) I'm not really surprised by #2.
4) There is a bit of a case to nerfing Humans by stripping a gift from them but not a big one as they should be encouraged to be the most populous.
5) If this were to be done it should've been done only to Humans, but honestly I will reiterate I do not think the case for nerfing them is that solid.
6) A lot of character archetype's are no longer possible.

Please share the build you think cannot afford to trade a feat for +2 to their primary stat over human, or +2 con. That's generally the trade that you should have in mind when going human to dwarf/elf/whatever. I know I'd take that trade every day of the week if it weren't for the fact that I don't always like racial RP.


I fully agree drow could use the help, but I think the pendulum there has swung too far the other direction.

[CorsicanDoge]

People were definitely playing drow but it was most definitely out of love for the race. You weren't S-tier, double-stamped by build advisors but somehow we still see drows being able to hold their own.

It's a concession but there's definitely drow in the UD back then and there's definitely more drow now.

Rebuilding for +2 cha seems crazy though even if my div bard could use the extra round.

[NauVaseline]

Please share the build you think cannot afford to trade a feat for +2 to their primary stat over human, or +2 con. That's generally the trade that you should have in mind when going human to dwarf/elf/whatever. I know I'd take that trade every day of the week if it weren't for the fact that I don't always like racial RP.

Every single build ever benefits directly from having an extra feat.

[Hunter548]

Please share the build you think cannot afford to trade a feat for +2 to their primary stat over human, or +2 con. That's generally the trade that you should have in mind when going human to dwarf/elf/whatever. I know I'd take that trade every day of the week if it weren't for the fact that I don't always like racial RP.

Every single build ever benefits directly from having an extra feat.

Sure, but some feats are more important than others. My point is you can almost always find a feat to give up without crippling yourself (Toughness is a really common one I see), and if you're picking up +2 to your primary stat or +2 con, that's a worthwhile trade.

[ImWithThisGuy]

Joining the shout out that there are some major reservations for the gifts change. Wall of text time- Sorry in advance!

ECL0 characters rely on the gifts in ways that the ECL+ characters simply don't. Even if the ECL+ characters are unable to select their gifts like the ECL0 ones, they are typically useful in some way. Others have mentioned that feat or class attribute requirements are quite high in some cases, and in order to reach them with a single gift is truly crippling. Those of us who have played characters with 8 str or 8 con know that it really really hurts.

With two selectable gifts, it's difficult to pull off certain builds, but with one, it can become outright impossible. Something like a 15-16 attribute requirement becomes huge, and they are quite common; like Improved Two-weapon fighting, Epic Damage Reduction, Monk's Ki-strike, Loremaster, Barbarian, WeaponMaster (between int and dex). There were certainly gaps in power for incompatible race+class combos before; such as Swashbuckler and half orc. That said, it was doable before, but with a single gift it cannot realistically be done at all. Beyond that, classes that need a second main attribute like Assassins, All divine classes including champion, Swashbuckler, Spellswords, Hexblades, Bards, Monks, and so on- Nearly All classes are effected heavily for the problems only a few were creating in this case.

I won't be the first to deny that some classes simply benefited too much from having or using multiple attributes. Paladins have some of the most powerful abilities in the game once you consider that something as small as 11 wisdom equates to +5ab and damage from Divine Favor. Stack this with +9 damage, saves, AC, full BAB, dispel resistance, fear immunity, high hit dice, weapon versitility due to bless wep (effectively turning any wep into a +4), And amazingly high powered gear... it becomes quite clear you've got yourself a problem. And that's assuming they have only 11 wisdom! Most paladins shoot for 14 (after their free wisdom bonuses). Paladins have use from all attributes depending on how they are built. It makes sense how removing a gift will effect them, even if they are only a dip.

And that's why I feel like these changes were made; in an attempt to address classes that can or do benefit too much from multiple attributes. (Primarily paladin, whether dip or deep) But the impact of doing so by the removal of gifts effects too many other things to be healthy. Many classes care about usually one or two, which is normal. With only one gift, they might only get half their class benefits, or be required to be a certain race to benefit from them. All barbarians under this system suddenly become dwarves. All monks and clerics are svirfs, And so on; restricting all classes by race (to some extent at the very least). Which isn't an entirely bad thing, until you consider that players will often cater towards power first, and the implications of that power second.

It's easy to think that players will keep their old characters to lord over the weaker new ones; but that's not the problem here. The problem is that some things were possible under the different set of gifts that become impossible after. Legacy power will come most often from accessibility, not 2 more attribute points. EDR will be the best example here. Using this attribute distribution tool, here's a basic ability spread.


15 str gift for 17base +4 from levels and 1 from feat = 22
8 dex
18 con 3 from levels = 21base.
14 int
8 wis
8 cha

Assuming you're not a dwarf, you'll dump all three of dex(8), wis(8), and cha(8) to reach it. With a second gift into con, you can afford to lower your total con by 2 points, freeing up 6 total. This represents other options while still reaching the required 21 con for EDR. This can for example, allow you to put your int up to 16 for skillpoints, spellcasting or loremaster, or 14 wis for spellcasting (Great for shamans and rangers!). You can pump it further into str, Or go up to 14 dex to take advantage of the far superior dex based armors. And finally, once again, 14 cha for the incredible divine dip. With one gift, you don't have a choice. You sacrifice it all no matter what. (Alternatively to this method, you can spend more epic feats. Which you don't have, due to having taken EDR.)

[Aleilsum Ellrum]

Could the Developers maybe explain -why- this Gifts change happened, which disproportionately affects ECL0 and Drow races?

I don't like it at all, but is there some vision for the long term where in fact it's going to benefit server balance?

[Dedman1234]

I think the ECL change is not a bad idea, though I have my doubts about its execution.

First off, all of the "UBER" races from major awards just got a nice QoL buff, which is nice. Being able to pick an RP-focused gift, like the gift of tongues or something as a vampire/demon/whatever is a very reasonable change.

As for the +2 races, Svirfs are decent now, imagine that. Also, as people have already mentioned, new drows are going to be outright stronger than the old ones... which makes sense. The drow do practice selective breeding and all kinds of other screwed up things, so it is not unlikely the new generation is a bit more adaptable.

Humies got nerfed. There are two ways to look at this. Humans being so strong was the reason they were so common, which was pretty healthy for the setting and fit into the overall lore of the world; that will change a bit now. On the other hand, humans were pretty damn op. The same goes for Imaskari, not a lot of people realized how much potential that race had, being arguably more powerful than their surface cousins when considering anything that was not a dex build. Plenty of builds and classes will be rendered obsolete now. I think some classes might need adjustment, since hitting 18 CON on a human barbarian will now require sacrificing plenty of strength among other things. In conclusion, there are both bad and good sides of nerfing the most common race in the setting.

The problem starts when we consider the other +0 ECL races. The nerf cannon aimed at humies, unfortunately, took a few innocent lives when it fired. Dwarves are now outright weaker than the Duergar, with the latter getting +2 str for free on top of immunities to everything. Elves were kinda even with drow before. Now all elves lost a gift, while the drow gained one. Elves will be far rarer for sure, which does fit into the setting as well, but ensuring a race's rarity by making it crappy is not a very good approach in my mind. Kobolds, goblins, gnomes, halflings, all of them got hit with the nerf for no real reason I think.

And then there are the half-breeds. Half-orcs at least get a few feats and items that allow them to become decent SDs, though the feats mostly allowed them to forgo getting to 15 DEX - something that will not be much of an advantage, considering they are effectively losing out 2 stat points from the update.

Half-elves were bad. Like, catastrophically bad. No real lore behind the race stunted their RP potential, with the "I don't fit into either society" line of RP being one of the only interesting things available to them. Abysmal mechanical power was their massive problem. Now... Welp. If someone willingly makes a half-elf while the update is in effect, then they will have my honest respect as a seriously dedicated RP'er.

I think a good way around this whole mess would be this:
Make Humies +1.
Like, really. Hear me out here.
Leave all the other +0 races with their 2 gifts. Those poor chaps were not very strong, to begin with, they definitely did not need a nerf. Humans on the other hand already get a functional +2 to int on non-wizards anyway, they will be fine with a bit of a nerf that is actually aimed at them.
However, don't remove a human's ability to get the +2 to a stat either. Instead, make humans pick between an extra feat and a stat gift.
The devs could create a set of feats that can only be taken by humans on LVL 1 that would effectively emulate the effects that major gifts could provide (for instance "Human resilience" granting +2 to CON). Do disable the possibility of taking two the same gifts, though. Humans should not start with +4 STR or something ridiculous like that...
That way, humans can still fit into the old builds that often invested the bare minimum into stats (like the aforementioned barb with his essentially required 18 CON or a Brycer with 18 CHA) by sacrificing their bonus feat. Feat-starved classes could forego the stat change and merely settle for sacrificing a gift while retaining the bonus feat and their powerful skill bonuses.

I think such a solution would be best for the surface players. Humans would still be pretty powerful, but not overly so. Just enough to keep them as a common sight on Arelith. We would also preserve the +0 ECL populations of the server. I mean, I freaking love grouchy dwarves, arrogant elves, sniveling goblins, and creepily stoic kobolds I tend to run into, and it would be sad to see them become less and less common.

People who will stick with their likes and keep making characters of their fav race without considering the disadvantage they're putting themselves at are to be commended. However, let's be honest, not a lot of people are willing to accept such drawbacks. I fear the communities based on racial archetypes of +0 ELC races will start dying out with time if joining them will require taking on a burden of being outright weaker than everyone on the server.

[BaRKyy]

You can go both edodge and ki strike 4/5 by going 8 con.


8 con.

Unless you're a drow, and then you can get 14 con. Lmao.

Technically as a human you can start with 8 str and 12 con but.... yeah it's still really terrible.

It's:

Strength 8
Dexterity 17 (19 w/ Gift) - Enough for Edodge at 27.
Constitution 9
Wisdom 16 - Enough for Ki Strike 4/5
Intelligence 14
Charisma 8

Not sure where you got 12 con from. You can drop int to 13 and do strength or con 10, yes. Dropping int to 13 removes one of the benefits of going human, the extra skill points, or at least negates the loss of them.

Also - quick edit and add in here; This change's negated basically all the monk changes over the last year and a bit. It would be nice if something could specifically be looked at in this regard. Monks on 0 ECL are basically dead in the water, whilst a Drow (Usually not ideal monks) are far better off. Thank you.

[Nurel]

Quoted from Irongron's latest post in the Updates thread!

The following changes to the recent update are now in effect.


- ECL 0 races will receive 2 Major, 1 Minor gifts (as before).
- Humans being moved to ECL +1 (qualifying them for 1 Major, 1 Minor gift).
- The drow-only Gift of Melee-Magthere and Gift of the Clergy are disabled from selection.

The following change will follow in due course

- Any drow created with both a Major gift and one of those unique Minor gifts will be given an opportunity to re-select.

(Thanks for the feedback here, definitely helped revise this one. We're not likely to look at gifts further in the near future)

Woohoo!

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I'm really disappointed that humans now are just 1 and 1. I was ok getting 2 minors, there's a lot of great minors I would feel more incentivized to take. Now we don't even get that.

[Dedman1234]

Quoted from Irongron's latest post in the Updates thread!

The following changes to the recent update are now in effect.


- ECL 0 races will receive 2 Major, 1 Minor gifts (as before).
- Humans being moved to ECL +1 (qualifying them for 1 Major, 1 Minor gift).
- The drow-only Gift of Melee-Magthere and Gift of the Clergy are disabled from selection.

The following change will follow in due course

- Any drow created with both a Major gift and one of those unique Minor gifts will be given an opportunity to re-select.

(Thanks for the feedback here, definitely helped revise this one. We're not likely to look at gifts further in the near future)

Woohoo!

I think a good way around this whole mess would be this:
Make Humies +1.
Like, really. Hear me out here.

Woah. Nevermind then. Though, are Imaskari still +0? Cause now they are probably the most powerful race on the server if that's the case, lol.

[Itikar]

The issue with the current drow/svirfneblin population that has only one minor compared to the new members of the race with one major and minor sadly remains.

Also in general it makes little sense that ecl +1 races get the same gifts as ecl +2 ones. If the latter races are more powerful they should get fewer gifts than ecl +1. In this sense ecl +2 races have an advantage in the gift selection compared to ecl +1 races.

The issue is softened now, but it remains that the gifts were probably more balanced before the update.

[Wrips]

It's ok to give humans back their 2 gifts as well, everyone makes mistakes.

[Scurvy Cur]

Human nerf is misplaced.

Extra feat is not worth the ability to hardstack your primary stat to +4. If you've got anything like imp crit, item creation, epic prowess, or toughness in your build, then you're better off as a non-human.

Following the new update, human is probably the worst vanilla race. Spread is:

Moon elf/wild elf/halfling for anything dex
Sun elf for wizard/spellsword
Wood elf/horc for anything that's mono str.
Orog/wood elf/gold dwarf for str/cha
Shield dwarf as a universal pareto improvement on human
Helf if you want human aesthetic but can't stomach the now-abysmal statline.

[strong yeet]

Humans didn't really need the nerf. Dwarves (shield, gold, and duergar all) almost edged them out as better in nearly every circumstance.

It is not a contest anymore, or even a close one. we were so close. why...

[Drowboy]

It's ok to give humans back their 2 gifts as well, everyone makes mistakes.

I feel like it's important to note that bog-standard monks and barbarians are now fully impossible with humans without severely chomping your other stats to the point of stupidity.

[Hunter548]

Humans are now probably the worst race for just about everything. And given the "(Thanks for the feedback here, definitely helped revise this one. We're not likely to look at gifts further in the near future)" disclaimer at the bottom of the post, I can only assume the team intends to leave humans fighting half-elves for who gets to be the second-worst base race for the next year plus.


Pretty disheartening considering how great the rest of this update was.

[wulfburk]

for real, never played a human nor i intend to but if they had to be nerfed i'd remove the extra skill points only. Keep them at ECL 0.

Human population is really big until now (see the last census) and for me that is awesome. They should be the most populous race and that is in itself very beneficial to the roleplay of other races. Seeing as a race's pop varies closely with nerfs and buffs...

[ReverentBlade]

Messing with gifts and ELC at all was the definition of fixing something that wasn't broken IMO. Humans being an ECL race is also terrible lore. They are supposed to learn fast, not be handicapped.

[Jencent]

The following changes to the recent update are now in effect.
- ECL 0 races will receive 2 Major, 1 Minor gifts (as before).
- Humans being moved to ECL +1 (qualifying them for 1 Major, 1 Minor gift).
- The drow-only Gift of Melee-Magthere and Gift of the Clergy are disabled from selection.

Now humans is weakest race in the game. How about to make a new type of gifts for humans?

"gift of sacrifice":

+2 STR - 2 WIS
+2 DEX - 2 CON
+2 CON - 2 DEX
+2 INT - 2 CHA
+2 WIS - 2 INT
+2 CHA - 2 STR

As minor gift.