Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I like a lot of the songs and how they're very focused in providing a specific bonus, so bards can switch between songs depending on what sort of situation they're in.

I like the idea of class synergy benefitting specific songs, but also will echo the sentiment that some of the classes have so little synergy with bard, it doesn't really make sense. Like the caster one is sort of weird, you'd be locking yourself out of high level spells and epic caster functionality (which imo is the biggest reason to play a caster, the epic abilities are amazing). I'm not saying remove synergy bonuses, or remove the song associated with them-- Since party members benefit from the song, there's a huge benefit to having things that could do things like ease the harmful effects of faerzress. I'm just saying it might be good to look at classes that do synergize with bard and figure out ways to give them a song that works for the build. So there'd be a trade-off for crossclassing: You either have a build good at one specific thing, OR, you get the bonus utility of being good at every song if you are a pure bard.

Another option would be to benefit caster crossclassing better, to have bard classes synergize with caster classes another way. Like if I was playing a healer cleric, I wouldn't crossclass 16 bard, it would neuter my healer abilities. Just like crossclassing 16 bard would be weird for a sorcerer. If you could do something like let bard levels count towards 1/2 caster levels or something to benefit other classes that would be hurt by such a deep bard dip, I think it'd make the synergy more interesting and useful. It could further allow for specialized bards, where the synergy with another class gives them specific abilities tied to that class.

[Cyanide_bullet]

I'm loving this concept and what it means as a whole. Gives a bunch of character concepts validity! And is a great way to lowkey nerf some powerbuilds. Keep up the good work!

[Definately Not A Mimic]

So, my first reaction to this was not good. Now home from work, reading through here, a calmer head...

I like the idea behind this, the various songs etc. I get the main song needed a bit of a nerf. But loosing +9 to skills (was 19 at max now 10??) and losing hp and loosing to ac and.... you get the idea, seems drastic. I will completely and fully admit that I am one that learns poorly from reading something, so looking at the list of songs doesn't help me wrap my head fully around all the options nor does reading the update itself.

I guess, my biggest hang up current, is that I had decided on a pure 30 bard, spent time figuring many many small ways that would bump perform all the way to the needed 100 and for that it would give me the ability to play a class that is support to groups which I love, but is also something simple and easy for me to actually do. Now, instead of the one button, I will have to find and learn all these songs, then actually learn how and when to use which, and honestly my comprehension level is just not that good. If I wanted fancy mechanics I would play other things or newer things. I'm sure thats my age talking but I had debated with a pdk dip character and decided trying to master even that simple of abilities was more than I wanted to try given my time constraints and the learning issues I have.

Yes, all that is my own thing to struggle through. I suppose mentioning it was more to vent a tiny bit and to maybe hope people keep in mind, not all of us are going to want things overly complex even when we are thankful for the work and effort that went in to keep things fresh and fun. It just sometimes leaves some of us floundering.

And if anyone wants to tutor me on working all this new stuff feel free to hit me up! Fair warning, it will be a massive stretch of your patience.

[Beard Master Flex]

Love the variety of songs! I was just planning a Bard/Ranger build when this dropped so very exciting to see that I can have some cool little flavor perks where none existed before.

Thanks!

[garrbear758]

After a long team discussion, the open lock song will be staying.

[The Hazards of Love]

Most of those synergies are more for flavor than for any large benefit. We specifically avoided combinations that would be optimal for those synergies.

The open lock song is under further discussion, but as it stands this change still makes it a harder/worse build than what currently exists.

The goal of a quarterbreaking build is not to be optimal in any sense other than the opening of quarters. That in itself is incredibly powerful, and one can always find friends to carry you through the leveling process, especially with -guard.

Also, my complaints about the songs are not necessarily that they're "off-meta" or "not optimal", it's that they're boring for what they are. Also, I do believe that you can have flavor and meaningful utility at the same time. It hearkens back to the age old "RP build" argument, in which one supposes that builds with suboptimal choices are inherently "more roleplay" than builds which do not. And, to be honest, most of these songs are not interesting or useful enough to be used for purely "RP" or utility reasons in the first place.

My intent is not to give offense or put the general idea down. I just think these need a lot of work before people will even think about using them over some of the better ones on offer. That's the crux of anything "utility" or "fluff": it has to be good enough in other ways to choose over something that's "optimal".

Cheers!

[Baron Saturday]

Does the Song of Silence +1% concealment/bard level stack with other sources of concealment, i.e. improved invisibility, or the SD Shadow's concealment? My assumption is no, but just to be sure...

[DangerDolphin]

Does the Song of Silence +1% concealment/bard level stack with other sources of concealment, i.e. improved invisibility, or the SD Shadow's concealment? My assumption is no, but just to be sure...

It does not! It should work like Imp Invs / Displacement do and take the highest.

[Bunnysmack]

I saw it on a different thread some time ago where an idea was discussed to make quarters easier to break into, but the chests inside harder to crack. Mostly to encourage RP for break ins, instead of 0 RP theft exploits on people that are super rich or personally disliked.

Honestly, I kinda like that idea. The classic scene of someone coming home to see the crime boss sitting in their favorite chair and pointing a gun at them? Leads to some very exciting RP themes (although I think some more stringent pvp conduct rules would be needed for this particular instance, to avoid it being abused and keep the focus more on exciting RP).

This is also especially useful for the purposes of breaking into a location that has a prisoner PC locked up. A mechanic that makes it substantially difficult to break them out, but not so impossible that only a TINY % of the player population can do it, would be an interesting mechanic.

[AstralUniverse]

We should consider also that paladin's chain armor might as well need a serious nerf now that it's a go-to bard item, soooo good that it's also stupid not to be a bardadin even more. All other bards need to use Elven chains and gear 5 dexterity elsewhere.

[Zavandar]

I dont understand why quarterbreaking is accommodated when it contradicts every other rule about engagement and conduct on the server, but that's probably a topic for another thread

[Dr. B]

How does it contradict them? Rule #3 limits you to stealing no more than one item per day per player, while Rule #2 governs PvP combat, which quarterbreaking isn't an instance of. Breaking into someone's quarters violates none of these rules.

[Xerah]

How does it contradict them? Rule #3 limits you to stealing no more than one item per day per player, while Rule #2 governs PvP combat, which quarterbreaking isn't an instance of. Breaking into someone's quarters violates none of these rules.

Must RP before PVP. None needed in this case.

[Dr. B]

You're not defining what counts as PvP here. You are using it to include stealing. However, this interpretation is not supported by the rules. The rules make it pretty clear that PvP covers either combat or political actions. This is borne out by the fact that rule #2, "PvP", does not say anything about stealing (rule #3 does that); and furthermore, by the fact that rule #2 requires prior interaction before PvP, whereas rule #3 does not require interaction before stealing. Therefore, stealing is not PvP as currently defined in the rules. Unless your goal was only to explain Zavandar's point, this is merely your personal opinion and is not supported by what the rules actually say. In fact, the rules suggest the opposite. If you think quarterbreaking shouldn't be allowed then your position is effectively that the rules should be changed.

[DM Rex]

Let me put this to rest so we can return to the feedback at hand.

RP is required before PVP encounters, meaning face to face.
Stealing from a quarter is not a face to face encounter where one or many beat up the other one or many to the death.
Ergo, face to face RP isn't required for theft. But clues and RP around any theft are encouraged.

[Preytoria]

A quick note note: A capella doesn't 'hit' your allies. I said earlier you could walk away from your group and sing a capella for yourself. Actually, it's a lot easier than that. Sing your party song (watchmans for example) and then sing a capella for yourself. You won't overwrite or lose the watchman's song you placed on your party. Even if they are right next to you. I don't know if this is intentional or not.

These are pretty cool songs. However, I'd like to see more +skill on the base bard song. Particularly for 27+ bards. Why? The skill bonuses, even with a specialty -song over top it, grant insignificant bonuses compared to current bard song. Ironically, the NEW bard songs grant double or even triple to the skills compared to current bard song for lower level bards. Let's be honest: the default bard song scaling is off, yes. I'm willing to write that off to some extent.

The problem is that the deep bards (26+) don't get as exciting scaling compared to current bard song. I will use Waltz of the Magical Masquerade [8] as an example.

(For reference)
Waltz of the Magical Masquerade [8]

+1 Perform and Bluff per 3 bard levels
+1 to Saves vs Mind Affecting per 5 bard levels
ESF: Perform: Grant immunity to scrying

A level 30 bard -- aka as BARD AS YOU CAN BE -- will get +20 perform (10 base song + 10 from waltz) if they use this song. It's a good bonus. But compare that to the default bonus they already get of +19. It's only a 1 skill difference. And? That is +19 to ALL SKILLS. The result? The Waltz feels less like 'bluff song!' and more like 'Hey, I got back what I used to be able to do!' song. Hilariously, if you are a level 15 bard, you are gaining +10 to perform (5 base 5 from waltz) as opposed to the current lvl15 bard song bonus of +3 to all skills. In other words: it actually /feels/ like you are specializing in boosting a specific skill. Some of this I can understand -- like giving the +/- discipline songs bard/4 scaling as opposed to bard/3 scaling.

I completely admit that this view I presented is biased. It is based entirely off of 'Old Song' vs 'New song.' If you handed these changes to a fresh player, they would see the songs for what they are: you are doubling your skill bonus in a particular skill. Which is great. The songs try to introduce versatility, but is actually less versatile than what bard is at present. I think this is mostly due to the numbers presented, particularly with 27+ bard. If this is the intention, then this is the intention. I can't really argue that. But I want to highlight some things that I think we should be mindful of:

No more temporary HP: This is going to hurt pure bards (And their awful hp) more than anything, I think. This will further encourage stacking con over cha on a 'caster' class (Along with sapping less saves)

ESF Perform Likely won't be necessary: With the lowered lore requirements and the ability to self-boost your lore even more -- I highly doubt ESF perform will be needed for anyone asides the pure bards. Even then they might not need it. This is speaking strictly to the lore requirement to meet bard song.

Pure Bard was already the suffering: It was hyperfocused on support and gave up a lot for it. Any and all offense and usually a lot of AC compared to divine dipping. I feel like losing all the +skill on base song and the temp hp is a lot when...I thought the problem was always the AC/AB swings. I understand sacking someone's concentration and disciple is incredible -- but did we have to toss out heal, detection skills, and everything else out with it? And the minus discipline is just added onto other curse songs anyway...

I'll be blunt: I am not that great mechanically, so I highly encourage others to correct me if I am wrong and advise listening to the more experienced persons here first. I am certain someone else here can untangle it better than I. I'm just a dude who slams curse song because I know it's a ridiculous ability. As an aside, I think it would be awesome to add a command to toggle whether my song affects others or not. Assuming that's possible!

[Seven Sons of Sin]

The breadth and depth of this is insane. Bards were already good. They already had a lot in their kit (skills, medium BAB, good ref/will, spellcasting, instrument craftables, Lore/language bonuses, -disguise, ontop of bard song/curse song), but this -

man, it's crazy. Is there something I'm not seeing here?

You can give me -1 AC all day with Bard Song if what you've given me are 10+ songs that provide insane utility. I'll take ESF Perform all day - it already made my -disguise better. But synergize with Bard Song further? Wowza.

Personally, I don't think the deficit in numbers outweighs just what this new songbook provides. I think it looks hilariously fun.

I just won't want to play anything else.

[DangerDolphin]

As of next update (Wait until it's announced in discord)

Bard Song PGCC Changes (Next update)

Bard Song AC progression: Moved 1 AC from level 20 to level 5. Progression is now: 5/10/15/25/28
Developer Note: This fixes the 16 Bard / X builds and means that every bard build now loses 1 AC rather than the previous heavy nerf to lower level bards.

Bard Song no longer persists after a bard dies
Developer Note: This prevents bards from recklessly dying after getting their song off in PvP, and gives enemies counterplay for disabling bard song buffs. This will mainly be a hit to Div bards with low hitpoints and high attack, as support bards (30 and 27/3) will be able to avoid diving into the fray once their song is active.

Removed all song synergies involving Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Blackguard and Paladin.
Added Fighter levels to Ballad of the Dragonslayer song
Added Loremaster levels to Market Day song
Developer Note: Caster synergies were very much a trap and could be misleading for newer players. Blackguard and Paladin simply didn't need any more advantages in bard builds.

A Capella Aria: +3 Slashing Damage at level 28, +2 AB at level 28
Developer Note: Bards hitting 28 have lost 1 APR from running pure bard, this is a pity offering to support bards for when they need to solo.

Morning After the Tavern: Changed from -2 INT to -2 DEX
Plague Mother’s Malediction: Changed from -2 CHA to -2 CON, random poison selections now scale to the song level
Developer Note: These two songs were causing annoyance to casters needing to fix their spellbooks. Morning After the Tavern was also designed more for use against physical opponents. Plague Mother’s Malediction poisons were ~DC26 at all levels, they are now ~DC15 below bard level 16.

Conquerer's Discord: Discipline Penalty is now -1 per 4 bard levels instead of per 3 bard levels
Knock and Find Trap effects moved into the epic perform section of Pilfering Poems.
Curse Song now displays the curse song name to the victim
Damage for curse songs is now rolled separately for each creature in the area of effect
Non-bards can no longer use the -song and -cursesong commands
Fixed bug whereby the last song's perform bonus could be used for a subsequent song
Fixed exploit whereby A Cappella Aria could be used after singing a party buff song. Party buff song effects are now removed when using Aria.
Updated public songs list https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SZu ... sp=sharing

[Haroshia]

As of next update (Wait until it's announced in discord)

Bard Song PGCC Changes (Next update)

Bard Song AC progression: Moved 1 AC from level 20 to level 5. Progression is now: 5/10/15/25/28
Developer Note: This fixes the 16 Bard / X builds and means that every bard build now loses 1 AC rather than the previous heavy nerf to lower level bards.

Bard Song no longer persists after a bard dies
Developer Note: This prevents bards from recklessly dying after getting their song off in PvP, and gives enemies counterplay for disabling bard song buffs. This will mainly be a hit to Div bards with low hitpoints and high attack, as support bards (30 and 27/3) will be able to avoid diving into the fray once their song is active.

Removed all song synergies involving Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Blackguard and Paladin.
Added Fighter levels to Ballad of the Dragonslayer song
Added Loremaster levels to Market Day song
Developer Note: Caster synergies were very much a trap and could be misleading for newer players. Blackguard and Paladin simply didn't need any more advantages in bard builds.

A Capella Aria: +3 Slashing Damage at level 28, +2 AB at level 28
Developer Note: Bards hitting 28 have lost 1 APR from running pure bard, this is a pity offering to support bards for when they need to solo.

Morning After the Tavern: Changed from -2 INT to -2 DEX
Plague Mother’s Malediction: Changed from -2 CHA to -2 CON, random poison selections now scale to the song level
Developer Note: These two songs were causing annoyance to casters needing to fix their spellbooks. Morning After the Tavern was also designed more for use against physical opponents. Plague Mother’s Malediction poisons were ~DC26 at all levels, they are now ~DC15 below bard level 16.

Conquerer's Discord: Discipline Penalty is now -1 per 4 bard levels instead of per 3 bard levels
Knock and Find Trap effects moved into the epic perform section of Pilfering Poems.
Curse Song now displays the curse song name to the victim
Damage for curse songs is now rolled separately for each creature in the area of effect
Non-bards can no longer use the -song and -cursesong commands
Fixed bug whereby the last song's perform bonus could be used for a subsequent song
Fixed exploit whereby A Cappella Aria could be used after singing a party buff song. Party buff song effects are now removed when using Aria.
Updated public songs list https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SZu ... sp=sharing

I like all of this. Very good implementation of feedback. Still brings Bard Song a bit more in line, but allows for more build diversity and possible trade-off choices.

[Dreams]

At the moment, once you've used a song on someone offensively you're locked into having that curse song for the full duration. I think what might be better is that for both song and curse song:

Curse Song applies base debuff + unique selected song debuff. Recursing should remove the original unique effects and apply new unique effects if a different curse is selected. (This should not happen for a recasting of the same unique song, only for a song change.)

e.g. Bard uses Booming Drums of the Storm (does electric damage, etc) and debuffs an enemy. Bard then changes to different curse song Conqueror's Discord and debuffs enemy. All Booming Drums effects removed, Conqueror's Discord is applied, the base debuff remains. Have an internal damage cooldown - so electric/neg damage can't be spammed.

edit: Also, the flavour stuff is amazing. Really appreciate mechanics for this sort of thing. They're fun and I can imagine them leading to some excellent interpretations of the abilities and songs IC!

[Quidix]

Good implementation of early feedback!

On reflection, SF Perform and Extra Music seems like traps. I'd suggest improving them to a 4min reduction per feat, for a total of 1 charge per 2min with both. Perhaps even then offer ESF Perform a 1min reduction too. Why?

Firstly, let's remind ourselves that Master Harper gets Infinite Song, so all this (with a 2-3 feat investment!) is still inferior to that.

Secondly, consider a 40min no-rest period. Without these two feats one gets 4 charges, and with them one gets 10 charges. So, basically, each of these feats are worth 3 song per rest. Prior to this update Extra Magic's bonus of 4 songs was considered a waste.

[Zavandar]

Morning After the Tavern [3]
1% Sonic Vulnerability per bard level
-1 listen per bard level
-5% Movement Speed
-1 AC
ESF: Perform: -2
Dexterity

this change makes this curse song effectively reduce another 1 ac by reducing dex by 2. with a 26/4's baseline -4 (5/10/15/25), the -1 ac from morning after, and the -2 dex, it is at -6 total AC reduction which is exactly what it was before.

idk if that's intended but there's the math.

[DangerDolphin]

The AC was removed from Tavern!

[Itikar]

What about moving most 25 level bonuses higher or lower?

I believe it was already mentioned, but overall the matter is: level 25 bonuses advantage the usual 26/4 divine builds, that have already a lot, penalize anybody with less than 26 and non-maxed perform, i.e. the support builds that need it the most, and does not really advantage bard 30, which is the build that needs most help.

It was already noted but this is particularly noticeable for a capella aria and bardic rhtythm, where the divine builds, in addition to keeping the +5 ac total, also get 1 extra point of ac from capella, and can stack on it divine shield.

Personally I would move bardic rhythm 4th point of ac from 25 to 20, and capella's second point of ac from 25 to 28.

And well, one can also seriously consider not making bard song ac stack with divine shield, truthfully.

[Dreams]

Whilst this system is being looked at, could I suggest that Bard Song is added to the cooldown list?

-cd
"Time until next bard song: 10.00"