Arelith

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:15 pm**

Shrouded Wanderer wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:11 pm Evokers cannot hit you with a hellball from the opposite side of the server though, if we wanna start making a comparison id say wildmage is much more apt and i hear complaints all the time about them being overpowered.

...and making sure that -scry doesn't reveal the target's location is a good way of ensuring that said evokers are always found on the opposite side of the server at any given time all the time.

Don't want entire factions chasing you? Solutions are simple: A) don't mess with them or B) apply scrying countermeasures C) use scrying either yourself or through a diviner associate to stay one step ahead.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:20 pm**

-XXX- wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:15 pm
Shrouded Wanderer wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:11 pm Evokers cannot hit you with a hellball from the opposite side of the server though, if we wanna start making a comparison id say wildmage is much more apt and i hear complaints all the time about them being overpowered.
...and making sure that -scry doesn't reveal the target's location is a good way of ensuring that said evokers are always found on the opposite side of the server at any given time all the time.

Don't want entire factions chasing you? Solutions are simple: A) don't mess with them or B) apply scrying countermeasures

A) not always possible certainly when those factions can be the aggressers

B)Is simpler put than in practice. Gank squads frequently try to scry when somone is out and about and not within the halls of a safe area where scry countermeasures are easily put into practice nor are they easy with those who do not have UMD for wands or Lore, like purefighters.

As for your first point i dont understand where you are getting at, however and correct me if i am wrong it sounds like you are defending gank squad practices.

If scry doesnt give you the location of the target but all other similar information it balances one of the worst and most unhealthy aspects of the spell, and i think its worth trying, just as subdual was worth trying.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:36 pm**

Shrouded Wanderer wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:20 pm
-XXX- wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:15 pm
Shrouded Wanderer wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:11 pm Evokers cannot hit you with a hellball from the opposite side of the server though, if we wanna start making a comparison id say wildmage is much more apt and i hear complaints all the time about them being overpowered.
...and making sure that -scry doesn't reveal the target's location is a good way of ensuring that said evokers are always found on the opposite side of the server at any given time all the time.

Don't want entire factions chasing you? Solutions are simple: A) don't mess with them or B) apply scrying countermeasures
A) not always possible certainly when those factions can be the aggressers

B)Is simpler put than in practice. Gank squads frequently try to scry when somone is out and about and not within the halls of a safe area where scry countermeasures are easily put into practice nor are they easy with those who do not have UMD for wands or Lore, like purefighters.

As for your first point i dont understand where you are getting at, however and correct me if i am wrong it sounds like you are defending gank squad practices.

If scry doesnt give you the location of the target but all other similar information it balances one of the worst and most unhealthy aspects of the spell, and i think its worth trying, just as subdual was worth trying.

You can apply a widely accessible countermeasure, physically ~on~ your character that moves along with it. As such preventing "gank squad practices" is a rather trivial matter.

Furthermore, yes I think that what you describe as "gank squad practices" is a legitimate use of scrying. The execution can be poor and the execution can be well done, but that is not the point - same can be stated about any form of PvP.
Point being, we should not judge mechanics depending on whether they can be used for poorly executed PvP encounters.

I insist on my point that revealing the location of the target is an important part of scrying and shouldn't be removed.

EDIT:
Allow me to elaborate further: I use scrying to locate characters all the time. It's a very convenient tool for timing interactions right. I can't recall using scry myself to initiate PvP even once.

Additionally, with the way countermeasures work, tracking characters engaged in PvE content can be very hard. One of the countermeasures is a commonly used magical ward, so the chances that the target will be warded against scrying without even knowing it are very high.
The most convenient mechanic for directing "gank squads" is -project_image or wisp bottles. Usually what might seem like a warband locating someone with the use of scry is in fact a result of them having a sneak trailing their prey and tipping them off with a timely message.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:37 pm**

-XXX- wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:36 pmThe most convenient mechanic for directing "gank squads" is -project_image or wisp bottles. Usually what might seem like a warband locating someone with the use of scry is in fact a result of them having a sneak trailing their prey and tipping them off with a timely message.

This is actually fine though, as it involves a great deal of time watching or patrolling around to find them, then a degree of risk while you follow them. As well as needing to time your message so as not to waste it when you're not sure where they're headed. Potentially needing to learn another language to understand them too for this!

Scry doesn't really have any of these as requirements, though if a group is on the move it's harder to know where they will be in a few minutes time.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:35 pm**

DangerDolphin wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:37 pm
-XXX- wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:36 pmThe most convenient mechanic for directing "gank squads" is -project_image or wisp bottles. Usually what might seem like a warband locating someone with the use of scry is in fact a result of them having a sneak trailing their prey and tipping them off with a timely message.
This is actually fine though, as it involves a great deal of time watching or patrolling around to find them, then a degree of risk while you follow them. As well as needing to time your message so as not to waste it when you're not sure where they're headed. Potentially needing to learn another language to understand them too for this!

Scry doesn't really have any of these as requirements, though if a group is on the move it's harder to know where they will be in a few minutes time.

Many alternative "gank tactics" pale in comparison to an ability that lets you see where someone is in real time, coupled with lenses and the fact a good amount of people know the server map like the back of their hand its as simple as scry->teleport-> haste to locale

A ranger for example would need to follow, sus out tracks, potentially wisp message.

Theres a variety of methods that are closed off for gankers because scrying is so convenient.

The problem with just introducing a CD Is that it just hurts normal divin scryers, especially with the cost so high for a failure.

What i propose above is a simple fix that i think could easily be tried, just -blind the scrier or have it be a black screen.

With a rework that could potentially take months id say that reverse illusiary image would be amazing and thematic while adding a sweet cookiee, but i think it would take too much time.

And while XXX believes the problem of gank scry squads is trivial, it is absolutely not, but i think the devs know this already because i dont think this CD was introduced because peopoe we chain scrying meetings... Though i couod be wrong sure..

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:53 pm**

DangerDolphin wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:37 pm
-XXX- wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:36 pmThe most convenient mechanic for directing "gank squads" is -project_image or wisp bottles. Usually what might seem like a warband locating someone with the use of scry is in fact a result of them having a sneak trailing their prey and tipping them off with a timely message.
This is actually fine though, as it involves a great deal of time watching or patrolling around to find them, then a degree of risk while you follow them. As well as needing to time your message so as not to waste it when you're not sure where they're headed. Potentially needing to learn another language to understand them too for this!

Scry doesn't really have any of these as requirements, though if a group is on the move it's harder to know where they will be in a few minutes time.

I'm not saying that I don't think that it's fine. I stated it because I actually think that what might appear as one thing is in many cases something else entirely.
I know first hand how extremely unreliable tracking someone who's grinding via -scry can be. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of my scrying attempts get blocked ~because~ the target character's put up wards before grinding and one of those wards happens to block it.

Long story short, I don't think that "but them gank squad tactics" is a good argument against scrying. Whenever someone gets trampled by a "gank squad", it's usually the result of a coordinated effort of trackers, stealthy characters, diviners, illusionists, snitching and the good old lucky guess (if that faction you went against learns how much you like farming orcs in the Orclands, they don't need no magic in order to sweep it). No one of these tactics can "pwn" a someone on its own unless they're being very sloppy.

Furthermore, this involves a considerable effort and resources from any faction to pull off successfully.
Hence why I suggested that not going against entire factions on your own is a good way of avoiding getting trampled by them - they're pretty unlikely to invest so much time, effort and resources just to target a lonesome stranger without any prior provocation.

Anyway, scrying's not the cause of gank squads. Gank squads have been a thing even before scrying.
Anyone claiming that scrying's convenient is clearly clueless - you can have the entire gank squad assembled, if a single scry attempt is all that you've been all working with, there's a very good chance that the entire gank squad gets quickly dispelled by a low level spell.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:06 pm**

-XXX- wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:53 pm
DangerDolphin wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:37 pm
-XXX- wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:36 pmThe most convenient mechanic for directing "gank squads" is -project_image or wisp bottles. Usually what might seem like a warband locating someone with the use of scry is in fact a result of them having a sneak trailing their prey and tipping them off with a timely message.
This is actually fine though, as it involves a great deal of time watching or patrolling around to find them, then a degree of risk while you follow them. As well as needing to time your message so as not to waste it when you're not sure where they're headed. Potentially needing to learn another language to understand them too for this!

Scry doesn't really have any of these as requirements, though if a group is on the move it's harder to know where they will be in a few minutes time.
I'm not saying that I don't think that it's fine. I stated it because I actually think that what might appear as one thing is in many cases something else entirely.
I know first hand how extremely unreliable tracking someone who's grinding via -scry can be. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of my scrying attempts get blocked ~because~ the target character's put up wards before grinding and one of those wards happens to block it.

Long story short, I don't think that "but them gank squad tactics" is a good argument against scrying. Whenever someone gets trampled by a "gank squad", it's usually the result of a coordinated effort of trackers, stealthy characters, diviners, illusionists, snitching and the good old lucky guess (if that faction you went against learns how much you like farming orcs in the Orclands, they don't need no magic in order to sweep it). No one of these tactics can "pwn" a someone on its own unless they're being very sloppy.

Furthermore, this involves a considerable effort and resources from any faction to pull off successfully.
Hence why I suggested that not going against entire factions on your own is a good way of avoiding getting trampled by them - they're pretty unlikely to invest so much time, effort and resources just to target a lonesome stranger without any prior provocation.

Anyway, scrying's not the cause of gank squads. Gank squads have been a thing even before scrying.
Anyone claiming that scrying's convenient is clearly clueless - you can have the entire gank squad assembled, if a single scry attempt is all that you've been all working with, there's a very good chance that the entire gank squad gets quickly dispelled by a low level spell.

Nobody said scrying is the cause of gank squads.

Scrying makes gank squads easy and convenient and scry has been consistently rebalanced around the fact that people use scry to conduct raids and ganks.

As for how resource intensive scry ganking is, you complicate a simple 5 minute task, ive seen people gank a character within 10 minutes from being all over the map before.

People build their characters around ganking and sure, while a rebalance of scry wont eliminate gank squads, it will remove one of the most convenient and easiest tactics available, and arguably the laziest.

A rebalance around audio based scry only could also open the door to allowing penetrative effects on wards as well, depending on the circumstances or how it may affect gameplay. Considering the ability itself is supposed to be in line with illusionist clones i dont see how people fight tooth and nail for an ability that props up an arguably unhealthy environment for Rp.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:16 pm**

Quick question... why would MOD Edited: FOIG protect from scrying? Pretty sure that's not one of the things it can do in pnp.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:18 pm**

-XXX- wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:14 pm [Removed]

Im offering an improvement to a mechanic that not only impacts me but the entire server.

The fact of the matter is scry is used in certain ways, i do not claim to have all the answers but it seems that this conversation will go nowhere. So ill end it here.

Im in favor of moving scry to an audio only approach with a reduction in its cost while giving it more utility and less ability to be utilized in an unproductive and unhealthy manor.

Exordius wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:16 pm Quick question... why would MOD Edited: FOIG against scrying? Pretty sure that's not one of the things it can do in pnp.

Iirc it was added as a balancing factor so people who didnt know an abjurist could protect themselvds from being scried and ganked.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:21 pm**

Also, having to burn wand charges to counter scrying 24/7 just so a faction that hates you can't target their orbital laser on you whenever they feel like it is neither fun or of equal parity. Someone being scried needs to keep the countermeasure up at all times, while the scrier just needs to do a quick check now and then to see if they've forgotten to keep the warding up.

Scrying makes gank squads easy and convenient and scry has been consistently rebalanced around the fact that people use scry to conduct raids and ganks.

I wholly agree with this.

Anyone claiming that scrying's convenient is clearly clueless
...
Naa~, you're just pushing an idea that would nullify the risk of you getting inconvenienced by a mechanic that you don't care for and can't be bothered to research.

Because judging from your previous posts, you have 0 understanding of how scrying works, but that still didn't prevent you from suggesting how to "improve it".

Calling people disagreeing clueless, smooth. I entirely disagree with everything about that. Scrying is super convenient, especially if you know how to remove all the risks from it. Being able to sit in your secure fortress and have a peek at all your enemies nonstop thanks to alcohol and rest areas was super toxic and basically made diviners NSA agents tapping not just phonelines, but also webcams.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:46 pm**

Exordius wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:16 pm Quick question... why would [redacted] protect against scrying? Pretty sure that's not one of the things it can do in pnp.

Because at the time scrying was implemented there had been no way of creating custom spells without haks.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:38 pm**

If I might contribute my 2 cents regarding this...

I never really did chain scrying before and I think it's kind of silly to be able to do it anyway so I ultimately think the CD between scries is a good middle ground. I love that scrying won't need rest to reset anymore and that variable times can be chosen for duration-- big QoL change for me.

Also, I do agree with -XXX- here, the visual component of scrying is an important part of the spell. I've personally never used it to "gank squad PvP" since that's not really what I play this game for. I use it to get details about people I'm scrying on-- things they wear, who they're talking to, what the place around them looks like, etc...

I'm not saying the whole gank thing doesn't happen but it's really easy enough to counter. If a character is getting scried and having hitsquads sent after them they must be sufficiently important to warrant that kind of action and maybe they should be taking precautions? I mean scrying is a 3-feat investment and I think they should be allowed some sort of power with it. Having said that though, it's really uninspiring to use scrying as a targeting laser all the time and hopefully it isn't abused.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:40 pm**

Fenran wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:38 pm Having said that though, it's really uninspiring to use scrying as a targeting laser all the time and hopefully it isn't abused.

It is

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:08 pm**

One thing I would like to see on scrying is the ability to detect if there is a sensor present that anyone could figure out and not just diviners. Just throwing out numbers to illustrate the point.

Maybe set the Spot DC to be 1d20+diviner's spellcraft or hide score, whichever is higher, -20 if the spotter has see invis. So a completely mundane spotter could locate it, with a far better chance if they have a specific buff. If they detect it then they get a message that they're being watched.

ESF: divination (and similar abilities) keeps this automatic, and lets the spotter have a spellcraft or spot check to get the name of the diviner.

That adds a bit more counterplay and potential for things to be done, maybe the quarry sets up an ambush for the gank squad potentially incoming, or savvy cultists decide to feed misinformation in their meeting.

At that point maybe some of the easier methods of scry immunity might be pierced with some work now that it's not a binary outcome.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:33 pm**

Locking this to avoid spreading more FOIG information.

Arelith

Branch Topic: Scrying

Re: Branch Topic: Scrying

Re: Branch Topic: Scrying

Re: Branch Topic: Scrying

Re: Branch Topic: Scrying

Re: Branch Topic: Scrying

Re: Branch Topic: Scrying

Re: Branch Topic: Scrying

Re: Branch Topic: Scrying

Re: Branch Topic: Scrying

Re: Branch Topic: Scrying

Re: Branch Topic: Scrying

Re: Branch Topic: Scrying

Re: Branch Topic: Scrying

Re: Branch Topic: Scrying

Re: Branch Topic: Scrying