Arelith

I expected some serious weird out of this thread, but I did not expect the "Illithid are just misguided" take.

Mind blowing.

Ork wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:41 pmThe fact that you label illithids as being evil solely because of their faith did give me a laugh though. I had no idea that an aberrant warp-corrupted space squid could avoid racial prejudices if they only followed Eldath. But, I mean. You do you.

Speaking of illithids, they reproduce by killing sentient species. They insert a tadpole into sentient species head, it eats the brain then grows to replace the body. It takes a week and is called ceremorphosis. (Book of Aberrations, page 63). They only use medium sized mammal humanoids for that. Before that happens, the tadpole must survive for ten years in a pool of other tadpoles while an Elder brain tries to eat them.

That didn't stop book of Exlated deeds from publishing an illithid paladin as an example. (Book of Exalted deeds, page 17)

Ork wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:41 pm Races have inborn traits or proclivities defines in the player's handbook. These proclivities, while not necessarily good or evil, are expressed and should be expressed in game. While exceptions are bound to exist, the setting dictates that the vast majority of races are this way.

Look at half-orc's entry in the player's handbook.


Half-orcs tend to be aggressive and simple-minded. This is the vast majority of half-orcs. This is a racial trait. Could players hate these racial traits that are evident despite faith worship? Hell yeah.

The vast majority of drow are paranoid, megalomanic, and covetous. This is a racial proclivity regardless of faith.

The vast majority of halflings are curious, jovial, and mischevious. This is a racial proclivity regardless of faith.

There are racial undertones in this game that have nothing to do with faith. Characters and communities can and do dislike other races regardless of faith.

The fact that you label illithids as being evil solely because of their faith did give me a laugh though. I had no idea that an aberrant warp-corrupted space squid could avoid racial prejudices if they only followed Eldath. But, I mean. You do you.

Ork, they're already dead, stop

Reading this thread was wild

Has to be noted that Drow, specifically Drow, have no natural inclination towards evil. Their alignment is purely a result of trying to survive in a horrible, abusive, demonic society, where good drow are outright killed. (It's from the lore, not from me)

Orcs, chromatic dragons, fiends, aberrations, etc are a different story. Saw drow mentioned alongside these, and it's incorrect.

We're playing a game set in the Forgotten Realms, using mostly modified the D&D 3.5 ruleset. Much has already been posted about the races and their tendencies. I'll add a bit more to that.

On Orcs:


On Drow:


On Tieflings:



As you can see, the core Monster Manual doesn't paint these creatures in a good light. They are (almost always) evil. Any deviations from that are anomalies and not the norm, whatsoever.

But what's more important is that Arelith is set in this timeline and this universe that was painted us, and it's our duty as players to respect this setting. Whether we like it or not, we agree to it every single time we make a new character and enter the world of Arelith. There's a small little dialogue box stating Arelith is set in 3.5 Forgotten Realms, and we pointedly say "I agree".
So this can't really be a matter of if, how, and why, when that's the precedent of playing on this server.

Security_Blanket wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:35 pm This is a fantasy setting with magic and monsters, this is not 5E, racism does and very much should exist in this setting. This isn't a fairytale world where everything is sunshine and rainbows, there's also storm clouds and all manner of nasty things waiting in the dark. Let's not bring real world ideals into this setting, please.

Agreed... stop this nonsense talk.
The races of Arelith IS different, diversity should only very extremely happen. Hins and Drows walking hand in hand.. etc.. will not happend, so.. there is Hate, and there will be harmful words, in which NO ONE should take offensive OCC, since its a game, fantasy, not RL. Your character IS NOT real.

So when a human calls a Thiefling bad things, that is okay.. the player behind the Thiefling character should be aware that not everyone will Welcome a half demon blood into their inner Circle. Just as its okay to Welcome the Thiefling.

Tabby wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:26 pm So when a human calls a Thiefling bad things, that is okay.. the player behind the Thiefling character should be aware that not everyone will Welcome a half demon blood into their inner Circle. Just as its okay to Welcome the Thiefling.

When people call Tieflings tHieflings, that's says a lot about race's reputation.

MissEvelyn wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:22 am We're playing a game set in the Forgotten Realms, using mostly modified the D&D 3.5 ruleset. Much has already been posted about the races and their tendencies. I'll add a bit more to that.

On Orcs:


On Drow:


On Tieflings:



As you can see, the core Monster Manual doesn't paint these creatures in a good light. They are (almost always) evil. Any deviations from that are anomalies and not the norm, whatsoever.

But what's more important is that Arelith is set in this timeline and this universe that was painted us, and it's our duty as players to respect this setting. Whether we like it or not, we agree to it every single time we make a new character and enter the world of Arelith. There's a small little dialogue box stating Arelith is set in 3.5 Forgotten Realms, and we pointedly say "I agree".
So this can't really be a matter of if, how, and why, when that's the precedent of playing on this server.

For orcs:
See:

Ruins of Zhentil Keep, by Kevin Melka, John Terra - Depicts the Odonti, Good aligned orcs following Eldath, which when read alongside Faiths & Avatars/Faiths & Pantheons, one realizes Tempurans would be protecting these orcs.

Which provides proof that orcish alignment is derived by faith.

For drow:
See:

Elves of Evermeet, by Anne Gray McCready et al. - Depicts an eilistraeen drow visiting Evermeet, AD&D book. Furthermore shows the lack of sexism amongst elves

Which provides proof that even Evermeet is willing to entertain the idea of Chaotic Good drow through Eilistraeens.




Beyond this: There are people arguing that it's "evil" to not allow Evil settlements to exist.

Let me ask you this: Would you want to live in an Evil settlement?

Would you want to live in Thay as a human commoner? Compassion is discouraged. Have fun living in a land where Compassion is discouraged.
What about as a Rashemi human, living next to Thay? Frequent slaver raids, frequent attempts to conquer and subjugate you to bring more power to the Zulkiirs.

No sensible individual would want to live in Thay.

What about Menzobezzaran? Even as a drow female, chances are your own sisters will murder you just for marginal advantage. Would you want to live in a society where you may get murdered at any time unless murdering you meant they lose an asset? (In fact, Drow society can't even exist realistically. Lolth herself intervenes to make sure it doesn't collapse from the constant murders, as written in Drow of Underdark I think)



Or would you rather live in Aglarond? A society mostly following the teachings of the Seldarine - who teaches Love is Love, that one should treat their kin as they themselves wish to be treated, that murder is bad, that one should only take from nature if doing so does not cause long term damage, that personal freedom and expression is paramount, that slavery is bad? Even if we only look at Valkur - be loyal to your crew, it's a way more livable society than Thay could ever be.

And then, there's Silverymoon. As close to utopia as humans could manage. The only worry you would have would be orcish raids, which your powerful mages and warriors will keep you safe from. Your queen is not a tyrant, but one who might have visited you, and asked for your advice without you even noticing. Even if you were the lowest of the low, and just a simple tanner doing disgusting leatherwork on the borders of her great city.

Would you rather live in one of the two Evil, or one of the two Good societies (gave one "realistic" example, one "dystopian/utopian")?

Even Neutral communities (Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate) lean heavily towards Good, because that's what you want. You don't want to fear backstabbing, sudden enslavement, arson, scamming. Backstabbing, arson and scamming exists in WD/BG, but they're persecuted as crimes rather than part of society.

While in Luskan, nobody cares. In Luskan, if you walk down some alleyway, the only thing remaining will be your boots worn by some robber that murdered you for it.


And I've no idea where people are getting it from, but neutral and chaotic good also have obligations to protect life. Harpers are the human example of Chaotic Good, and Harpers actively infiltrate evil societies, kidnap/assassinate tyrannous rulers and slavers, agitate the commoners and low-nobles to revolution to install a ruler who is either neutral (and favours good. Someone like Eltan), or outright Good. For non-human example, you got elves whose bladesingers, olin gisir, warpriests of corellon actively roam the land, hunting and eradicating evil to pro-actively protect their communities. All 3 are chaotic good.

Good does not need to be proactive. Eldath is Good, but she preaches pacifism and self-defence. Ilmater is also Good, but believes in mercy and redemption. Societies practicing those faiths may probably be insular.

But Good is obligated to protect and nurture life where their abilities permit. Nobody will expect a small elven village of 300 to go and liberate the lands around Zhentil Keep. But, Aglarond will fund mercenaries on both land and sea to hunt Thayan caravans/merchants, and liberate their slaves. Aglarond can afford that, and so it takes action.

Now, some argue "evil people can exist in good society." This is true. Scammers, bad employers, bad lords-of-the-manor and so forth definitely exist. However, there's a difference between someone who is so selfish as to exploit their employees/farmers or scam people buying their goods (and are tolerated within the margins of society's laws), and someone who is capital E evil, who worships Bane, and for sake of not being False before their lord, kidnaps a sapient from society to torture them each month so that they gain Bane's favour.


Page 38-39 of Faiths & Avatars

Day-to-Day Activities: Bane desired to rule the world so that all
Faerûn would know his tyranny. His clergy members were charged with the
task of rising to power in every realm and if necessary leading a band, city state, or kingdom to war to conquer its neighbors in order to bring ever
more territory under the sway of the Black Hand of Bane. Hatred, strife,
and destruction were to be spreadbut under clear duress and control, not
unbridled chaos. Domination was preferred to debauchery, and carefully
limited discord to stability. Cruelty, torture, and mayhem were tacitly encouraged, but those caught at such activities had to pay the price unless they had served Bane so well by spreading fear that none dared speak or act
against them. Superior Banite clergy members had to be obeyed at all times
and in all things. The faithful were to work subtly and patientlybut tirelesslyto bring members of the faith to power in every guild, village, town, court, war band, fellowship, realm, and society. All rules of the church had
to be followed to the utmost, but the rules of others were no rules at all.


Holy Days/Important Ceremonies: No rituals of Bane corresponded
to calendar dates, seasons, or lunar progressions. Rituals were held whenever
clergy leading a congregation declared they would be, and these ceremonies
were called by a wide variety of names. Personal prayers to Bane were to be
uttered before going into battle and before eating or drinking anything to
thank Bane for allowing his worshiper to live to taste the fare.
Rituals were held in a place of darkness (often simply outdoors at
night) lit only by dim magical radiances, moonlight, and flickering torches
or braziers. Usually dark chambers, caverns, and ruins were used. The worshipers gathered around the Black Altar, which was a plain stone block
draped with black cloth or painted black, a block of obsidian, or anything
over which a large, floating, black stone Hand of Bane hovered (levitated
there by a wizard clergy member or a magical item used by a priest or
through magic of its own). If no Hand of Bane was present, an empty black
throne was always placed facing the Black Altar. Services in such evil
churches involved rolling drums, chanting, and sometimes singing and
the sacrifice of intelligent life. Sacrifices had to be humiliated, tortured,
and made to show fear before dying to be acceptable to Bane, and they
usually met their deaths through slashing, flogging, or being crushed by
the floating Hand of Bane

Would you want a guy who does the above rituals as your neighbour? Would you want to live under a ruler who worships this?

Do you understand now why Evil (with capital E) is not compatible with life? Their gods, if they don't want to be branded as False and be punished by Kelemvor (no, not the "wall", but rather servitude within the Fugue Plane. The Wall is reserved for misotheists - people who refuse to worship any god), demand they torture, be cruel to others, and if able, kidnap and sacrifice intelligent, thinking, feeling living individuals.

Even if you're tacitly neutral, you will want the religion quoted above gone ASAP.

p.s.: Silvanus allows Evil druids. Why? Because he's perfectly fine with his druids engaging in arson, terror and murder to preserve natural lands against encroaching settlers. He does not encourage this, but unlike Eldath or Mielliki who would fall you from being a Druid/Cleric for doing this, he doesn't mind.


Edit: For "Diversity is rare" - read AD&D or 3E novels or sourcebooks describing Myth Dranor, Silverymoon, Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, Aglarond.

Aglarond is an outlier, as they're bordering Thay and are suspicious of outsiders, but Baldur's Gate or Waterdeep? Well, enjoy reading.


Edit 2: Found it. Drow of the Underdark, "The Drow Today" - Published 1991, AD&D/2E.





People who argue "this is FR, you agreed to play FR" need to actually read the novels and sourcebooks, I think.

LovelyLightningWitch wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:48 pm Let me ask you this: Would you want to live in an Evil settlement?

The best choice would be True Neutral settlement like Sigil. And not a good one.

That's due to good's tendency to crusade. Good settlements are only good when you're good aligned. If you're not it is like trying to settle in a medieval city during inquisition times and witch hunts while being a non-believer. And instead of compassion I'd prefer not to be bothered. Beyond that point it depends on which society we're talking about, who is in power and who am I within the setting, and how much power I possess. Evil settlements can be a sane choice if you're sufficiently skilled or sufficiently powerful, especially when such cities are well protected.
----

Actually there's a problem with that example.

Let's say you're a goblin. A proper neutral evil goblin. Where do you want to live now? All the progressive societies will kill a goblin, likely on sight. Which is why I suggested to try playing an underdarker for a different perspective...

Void wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:21 pm

LovelyLightningWitch wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:48 pm Let me ask you this: Would you want to live in an Evil settlement?

The best choice would be True Neutral settlement like Sigil. And not a good one.

That's due to good's tendency to crusade. Good settlements are only good when you're good aligned. If you're not it is like trying to settle in a medieval city during inquisition times and witch hunts while being a non-believer. And instead of compassion I'd prefer not to be bothered. Beyond that point it depends on which society we're talking about, who is in power and who am I within the setting, and how much power I possess. Evil settlements can be a sane choice if you're sufficiently skilled or sufficiently powerful, especially when such cities are well protected.
----

Actually there's a problem with that example.

Let's say you're a goblin. A proper neutral evil goblin. Where do you want to live now? All the progressive societies will kill a goblin, likely on sight. Which is why I suggested to try playing an underdarker for a different perspective...

Sigil is not Forgotten Realms lore.

And unless you enjoy murdering people, enslaving people, arson, torturing people, then you'll be left alone in a Good city. Furthermore, in a Good city there's a much lower chance that you will need to steal, scam or otherwise be forced to commit crimes to survive (compare Silverymoon vs Luskan). If the only evil you do is scam people as a merchant, selling them goods way overpriced... People will dislike you, but nobody will persecute you. Same for if you're a master smith who exploits his apprentices. People will despise you, but you won't be killed or jailed for it (unless you're in a Lawful society, and violated some contract and defualted on debt, but that's more of an Amnian LN/TN thing, than a Silverygood/Aglarond CG thing)

And why would murderers, slavers, torturers be allowed to exist even in a neutral city? Torturers may be allowed in official positions (spymasters, the like), but murderers and arsonists will be persecuted. And unlike in a Good city, where Ilmatari or some equivalent if non-human will try and redeem and help you with your violent tendencies, in a Neutral city you'll get beheaded and executed.

LovelyLightningWitch wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:05 pm Sigil is not Forgotten Realms lore.

Well, there are worlds beyond Toril, Sigil being one of them. And in face of multiverse, problem of a single material plane are not necessarily that big.

However, I'd advise to think about the question from before.
You're a Neutral Evil Goblin. Where do you want to live?

As you (appear to) build the narrative on assumption that only good is right and desirable. There are 9 alignments, and they all have a place in the world.

Taking out the mop here to wash away whats going on.

While feedback is welcome this thread has deviated entirely from the OP.

Thread is locked, be kind, rewind, and so forth.