Arelith

Will save would be good.

Another possibility for more layered counterplay would be to give them the outsider treatment where spell resistance adds to their turn resistance. Since most forms of this are breachable or otherwise reducable...poof...instant counterplay.

As with anything saves, it'd be possible to stack resistances on it until it becomes neglibible. Which if any vampire has any sense at all it is exactly what they'd do, like someone mentioned no least of all, because they already are because they need it to resist the Undeath to Death.

The turning resistance sounds appropriate.

Vampires don't have that meany weaknesses. They already shut down anything class combinations relies on critical hits or sneak attacks to have kill pressure. It wouldn't be good if they got a pass from Clerics too, which thematically should be their nemesis and something they ought to be worried about.

However, I will also agree that they'd need something better than instant panic for 30 rounds with no ability to control your character that can also be spammed. The duration should be shortened, and they should have a resistance to it if it has been successfully used against them in the past like Knockdown immunity. For 1 turn or something, so they don't get turned every second.

This is so the tradeoff from using -pray feels worthwhile. They waste the -pray, but they get away from a hard CC.

Edens_Fall wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:31 pm I tested an IG item with Immunity Fear last night againist the "The Chosen" of The Last Bastion on the advice of a, dare I say awesome player. Needless to say the item didn't work as I was still turned.

Though it did make me curious to thier build and rather in awe of their able to spam cast turn. Eitherway I was saved by my escort.

When the cleric spammed turn undead, was your character affected multiple times and struck with fear each time it was turned? Or only Sun/Death domain damage were dealt to your character and no more fear effects were applied after the first one?

Kenji wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:26 pm

Edens_Fall wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:31 pm I tested an IG item with Immunity Fear last night againist the "The Chosen" of The Last Bastion on the advice of a, dare I say awesome player. Needless to say the item didn't work as I was still turned.

Though it did make me curious to thier build and rather in awe of their able to spam cast turn. Eitherway I was saved by my escort.

When the cleric spammed turn undead, was your character affected multiple times and struck with fear each time it was turned? Or only Sun/Death domain damage were dealt to your character and no more fear effects were applied after the first one?

I was there too, and also happened to get turned, but don't recall receiving damage. The Chosen might have some kind of weird NPC version of turning, or wildly overtuned stats in CHA (for real they each much have turned at least 20-30 times until we shot them to death), and I have no idea what class combination they have either.

Eden's character tried a turn against me, right after, but it didn't work. I'm not sure what Eden's class combo is, exactly, but I strongly doubt it includes Sun.

I just tried to go back and double check, but the Chosen One's have not fared well in today's blood war. I'll try again later.

Kenji wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:26 pm

Edens_Fall wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:31 pm I tested an IG item with Immunity Fear last night againist the "The Chosen" of The Last Bastion on the advice of a, dare I say awesome player. Needless to say the item didn't work as I was still turned.

Though it did make me curious to thier build and rather in awe of their able to spam cast turn. Eitherway I was saved by my escort.

When the cleric spammed turn undead, was your character affected multiple times and struck with fear each time it was turned? Or only Sun/Death domain damage were dealt to your character and no more fear effects were applied after the first one?

I ran a simple test on the PGCC back when the cleric changes came out against a PC lvl 30 cleric with sun domain. After being turned and waiting the long reset time, they could turn me again right after it wore off and control was restored if I recall correctly.

Not sure I'd use the Chosen as proper test subjects as they are likely over tuned. Rly need to test agn in PGCC

I don't mind the idea of vampires being hard countered by Turn ... but the idea that they're more controlled by Turn Undead than any player is by Hold Person, Bigby's or other Arelith abilities does seem like it warrants a fix. The fact that it's spam-able and isn't subject to SR or any kind of feat or gearing combination probably isn't cool either.

Crit immunity is super strong, and I know, with my character, if I go in against a vampire 1v1? I'm going to lose. The only time this didn't happen was when Saslae KD spammed Delano Bellafonte once, but.. I don't know if he was a competitive/meta build at the time, and that was long before anti-KD measures were added to the game.

I know it's a losing combination ... but that's only if I choose to stay and fight it.

The vampire player.. because the range on Turn is so big, and it's an instant, long-lasting ability that is spam-able? I feel like it's probably a little too much. I do think that the Vampire 5% is one of the coolest races added to the game though right up there with Firbolg, and if I had a 5% I'd be gunning for one of those just because they're not tieflings and they stand out in alien ways I appreciate.

One of my favorite fights (we lost! xD) in my time in Arelith was against a giant Firbolg with a Scythe along the giant canyon near Andunor.. but the thing I loved about it was the character's sheer size as a human model was weird and cool. Felt like fighting a smart NPC almost and it was one of my more memorable experiences in the game.. and I honestly always just kinda wanted to RP with a firbolg. The one time I saw one "friendly" in Andunor ducking under the arches in the hub was a really cool experience.. and Saslae was just.. blinking as the ground shook, staring at it as it walked by ... and I loved that so much ... also had some cool experiences with vampire players... (Hi, Perunika!)

And it's.. these kinda weird moments, where you get to feel like you're almost playing in a DM event.. without the DMs having to do extra work. I don't think Andunor gets as much attention from DMs as the other settlements.. so having some of these kinds of characters around is one of the things that makes it feel like a fantasy world to me ... but I've known a lot of these kinds of characters that roll, or vanish because they get targetted by mechanics with no counter ... Large Size is a -very- strong ability, and so is Crit Immunity ... but as a character who's absolutely vulnerable to both? I hope they absolutely keep a place on Arelith.

The variety absolutely has enhanced my own play experience in ways I still smile about... but I do think that.. Turn Undead is one of those mechanics that's just gotten passed up. Something I did consider is.. if vampires racial type could legitimately be changed to be undead, so you can hit them with anti-undead weapons like moon blades, and other anti-undead effects (Gravekeeper's Repose? ) ... adjusting turn undead to be a little fairer might not be a power-spike.

That way, when vampire inquisitions happen? It's not "automatic death after the most infuriating CC Arelith has to offer".

Although.. I do wonder if a harm potion (or something related to those blood-vials they craft themselves?), or allowing Greater Restoration to work on vampires might be a good idea... at the moment? Any experienced PvPer knows: Unless a vampire is a cleric casting harm on themselves: they can't recover from damage how other players can ... most vampires are dexers or casters ... it doesn't matter that you can't crit them: Knock them down and heal freely -- use Iron Horn, Hellball, or KD spam... then heal yourself ... there is nothing they can do.

Their regeneration and the 'bite' attack that can miss do not even remotely compete with the amount of healing put out by healing potions. Add some kind of damage shield against them and you literally just win.

1 Iron Horn Pot, 2 Heal.

You need to be a level 30 sun domain cleric and have 18 charisma to turn a level 30 vampire with any kind of guarantee of turn hitting before it slaughters you.

That is an incredible niche thing to have to face, that if it happens then the charisma based pure class cleric deserves for undead PC to fear them.
Not get bonuses to remove there Achilles heel.

Nobody wants to REMOVE their Achilles heel: It should have interplay or be a vulnerability.. not hard-counter instant death. You don't have to be a sun-cleric to kill them due to the lack of ability to properly heal themselves and can do it on a non-cleric build. Keep up with the conversation.

dominantdrowess wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:44 pm Nobody wants to REMOVE their Achilles heel: It should have interplay or be a vulnerability.. not hard-counter instant death. You don't have to be a sun-cleric to kill them due to the lack of ability to properly heal themselves and can do it on a non-cleric build. Keep up with the conversation.

I mean, I agree they should have more agency when turned (change from vanilla fear), but if you add a will save to turning, when you're talking about PvP where every vampire who wants to bother will have 38+ will anyway, you kind of are talking about removing their Achilles' heel by adding a will save. It's not a will save mechanic because they're not meant to save against it- the cleric either is or isn't powerful enough to turn them.

There are people arguing for exactly that in this thread, so I'd say that telling someone to keep up on the topic is a bit dismissive.

Another random aside that no one's brought up - you can't block it with mind immunity, but you can dispel the turning effect. Which correct me if I'm wrong, is a valid interplay option reliant on IG actions and allies? If you got rid of vanilla fear, the vampire could even try to dispel themselves to get rid of the penalty entirely, at the cost of an action.

Which still seems more than fair to me given all the inherent benefits in an undead subtype (not to mention the vampire specific perks Arelith offers).

There are some truly terrifying ways vampire PC immunities can be used to make obscenely powerful builds, but I do think that turn shouldn't be SO strict a game ender for them.

That being said, lessening overall counters to Vampires is...questionable. Vampire Barbarian, for instance, is essentially a barbarian that never has to worry about crit or mind effects. The latter part is something that might want to be reconsidered.

Undead generally have mind immunity because your average undead creature is too mindless or remote-controlled to have a mind to effect. Vampires, on the other hand, DO have minds of their own, so we may wish to remove their flat immunity to some or all mind effects. In so doing, making turn into something that effects these PCs less dramatically would make more sense.

Bunnysmack wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:17 pm Vampire Barbarian, for instance, is essentially a barbarian that never has to worry about crit or mind effects. The latter part is something that might want to be reconsidered.

Mighty rage allows barbarians to basically disregard CC effects already.
Personally, I'd rather forgo crit immunity on my 600hp build than give it an instant off switch.

Bunnysmack wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:17 pm There are some truly terrifying ways vampire PC immunities can be used to make obscenely powerful builds, but I do think that turn shouldn't be SO strict a game ender for them.

That being said, lessening overall counters to Vampires is...questionable. Vampire Barbarian, for instance, is essentially a barbarian that never has to worry about crit or mind effects. The latter part is something that might want to be reconsidered.

Undead generally have mind immunity because your average undead creature is too mindless or remote-controlled to have a mind to effect. Vampires, on the other hand, DO have minds of their own, so we may wish to remove their flat immunity to some or all mind effects. In so doing, making turn into something that effects these PCs less dramatically would make more sense.

Undead get mind immunity for more reasons than that. It's because even the intelligent ones have no mind in the mortal sense and are just conduits for negative energy. A lich, a vampire, etc all have mind immunity so I wouldn't like seeing them become pseudo-undead with mortal traits by removing that. If we take that route we may as well just start calling them half-vampires or something.

I like the idea of my vampire being able to be turned, but I just think it needs some tweaking.. like not using the old fear. We've already decided the old fear had to go, so it's weird to see it make a come back. Shorter duration vs players, because that's something we do for many effects. That should be fine, right? Priests 'should' be terrifying for me when playing my vampire.


... But I have always questioned why barbarians get such a huge buff to will, when that's their main weakness.

Void wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:40 pm P.S. If it is fear, wouldn't clarity/mind blank work against it?

Turn is coded to ignore mind immunities, because undead are mind immune. You can test this in game by mindblanking a hostile zombie before turning.

I would like to point out with the new Paladin changes this concern has perhaps increased on the list. Given how Bless Weapon effects Undead PCs and one of the Oaths allow for a 50% chance to overcome crit immunity each strike.

Having an "I win" button on top of that seems . . . An unpleasant experience waiting to happen. Repeatedly.

Edens_Fall wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 5:00 pm I would like to point out with the new Paladin changes this concern has perhaps increased on the list. Given how Bless Weapon effects Undead PCs and one of the Oaths allow for a 50% chance to overcome crit immunity each strike.

Having an "I win" button on top of that seems . . . An unpleasant experience waiting to happen. Repeatedly.

true, maybe this could be looked at for balance reasons. as well, i noticed that a vampire's crit immunity makes them difficult for weaponmasters and other crit-reliant builds to deal with, especially with strong abilities like overheal on top of this.

having "i win" abilities is indeed a problem.

I think if vampires lose some of their weaknesses, they should lose some boosts as well.

I think if any class is going to be strong against vampires and warlocks, it should be paladin. And you have to specialize in fighting these things to do it.

Drowboy wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 5:34 pm I think if vampires lose some of their weaknesses, they should lose some boosts as well.

I'm not saying they should loose a weakness. Just modify it to be more appropriate. If anything the amount of weaknesses they have is increased with the new changes.

If we're removing weaknesses from vampires, remove strengths too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4ga_M5Zdn4

Aight, here's what I gathered to be a good approach:
If a vampire PC is affected by Turn Undead, it can't be affected by Turn Undead for the next 5 minutes from the same turner.

This way a vampire almost most certainly will have to spend a -pray to remove Turn Undead fear and has 5 minutes to either finish the conflict, escape, or will almost certainly lose against 2 high profile turners.

Kenji's idea seems like an okay compromise if the stun-lock approach is not going away. I'd still prefer not being inexplicably paralyzed, as that should remain under Halt Undead, but if it's to be that way then coming across two clerics seems like enough of a fringe case to not be bothersome. Until it happens, anyway, lol.

The bless weapon change, though, is very disappointing. There's already enough reasons to make all vampire PCs as clerics to maintain at least some semblance of an effective health pool, and now giving all PCs with 5 lore and 300 gold a free bane of enemies vs vampires is pretty gross.

I've done a lot of 2 out of 3 PVP lately and I can already imagine a ton of close call fights just simply being hard losses over and over again with this change. Please, please, reconsider this change - or make it paladin only or something. Crit immunity is not that strong without a source of Heal, and I think the community has greatly, and erroneously, overvalued it.

Skibbles wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:48 pm Kenji's idea seems like an okay compromise if the stun-lock approach is not going away. I'd still prefer not being inexplicably paralyzed, as that should remain under Halt Undead, but if it's to be that way then coming across two clerics seems like enough of a fringe case to not be bothersome. Until it happens, anyway, lol.

The bless weapon change, though, is very disappointing. There's already enough reasons to make all vampire PCs as clerics to maintain at least some semblance of an effective health pool, and now giving all PCs with 5 lore and 300 gold a free bane of enemies vs vampires is pretty gross.

I've done a lot of 2 out of 3 PVP lately and I can already imagine a ton of close call fights just simply being hard losses over and over again with this change. Please, please, reconsider this change - or make it paladin only or something. Crit immunity is not that strong without a source of Heal, and I think the community has greatly, and erroneously, overvalued it.

I agree with Kenji's reasoning here.

I also agree with Skibbles.

Skibbles wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:48 pm Crit immunity is not that strong

lol you sound like you play a vampire or something

Dreams wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 5:58 pm

Skibbles wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:48 pm Crit immunity is not that strong

lol you sound like you play a vampire or something

Skibbles is right. Crit immunity is just another one of a long list of hard counters readily available in the game.

The problem is crit DPS meta benchmarking, not crit immunity.

Not being able to chain-guzzle heal pots is a massive, massive downside in PvP.

Skibbles is right. Crit immunity really doesn't count for much on Arelith in PvP with the current balance. Plenty will just do big damage without needing crits anyway, and most PvP tends to boil down to who packed the best lunch (most heal pots).