Arelith

I don't actually feel like Guldorand is dead, but its location on a singular server makes it feel that way. I don't think any settlement will rival the numbers Cordor gets, just by virtue of it being "the starting town," but Guldorand feels pretty lively on its own merits. If I walk into Brogendenstein, or Bendir, or Myon, or even other popular hubs like the Minmir Nexus portal, the Tower, or Shadovar post, I won't find someone every single time. But it feels a lot less like I'm in a dead zone, because I can hit P and see the typically huge player counts the Surface server has -- because it's really, really big.

Guldorand's issue I don't feel like meaningfully exists from a RP standpoint -- the Charter's restrictions are really mild and boil down to "you can't kick out the Banites, and no kobolds allowed." I read them recently and was surprised to see how very little they actually firmly proscribe; I don't think their vague wording is a weakness, but rather a strength. You can interpret some of it to mean different things, which is to my mind not unhealthy.

My point is that it does feel very lonely to hit P and see that you and only two other guys are online, but that to me feels like an issue of the physical, Guldorand server has basically nothing on it. Cities & Planes has Cordor, all the lowbie Cordor dungeons like the coal mines and crypts, Dis, the Abyss, all of the Shadow Plane except the Trade Post, (which is a big place), all the astrolabe areas, and probably more since I'm sure I'm forgetting something. By comparison, Guldorand has... Guldorand, the Deep Wells, Soulhaven, and the few areas outside. The problem is that this content isn't just contained in a really narrow range, it's also not popular content. After you've done the Deep Wells one time, there's not much reason to go back unless you really like it. The exp/loot/resource rewards aren't that great, it's really complicated to navigate, it's really long, there's no resting.

That's not to say it's bad content, because much of it is really quite varied and cool, but it takes a lot of time -- even if you know exactly where you are going, and so far I've never met anyone that does outside the first few levels that you go to for the mid-epics level writs -- that most people aren't willing to invest for what you get out of it. Otherwise there's the Copper mines dungeon, the sewers, and the 3 crypt dungeons. That's just not much "area."

By comparison, the greater part of Myon is on the surface server (especially the convenient merchant zone of the High Hall, and the physical city itself, all of which are a lot more convenient meeting spaces than anything in the Quarter) almost all of Westcliff and the Skull Crags are on the surface server, every single area of neighboring Minmir (literally two areas away from the Fortress City!) is on the surface server... it feels like there's so much content that could and should be on the Guldorand server that isn't.

On the note of Myon, I will say there are a lot of posts here that seem to want to use Guldorand feedback as a vehicle to take shots at that settlement's RP, which feels pretty meanspirited to me. Calling a whole group of players "stagnant" is just rude. If you have real and meaningful concerns along these lines, take them to the DM team, who are, frankly speaking, simply better equipped to make objective calls like that than any of us are.

To close, it doesn't strike me that Guldorand is more or less active than any other settlement, again with the exception of the perpetually hyperactive Cordor. But it can feel that way. Imagine if Brog had its own server, encompassing only the Dark Spires & the Golden Halls? It would feel lonely in those doldrum single-digit-playercount hours, even if it isn't in truth.

When I posted the thread, I thought people were mostly going to talk about what resources or dungeon opportunities were missing from the server, but a lot of the talk is instead about RP-based issues. Many of the problems as I see it have to do with the Founders' Charter that doesn't allow whole organizations to be proscribed. If it wasn't for the Charter, the ability to impose sanctions on other settlements for violating sovereignty would have solved the Myon-Guldorand conflict that sometimes breaks out.

I do agree that asking a small-population town to have two separate factions (the Watch and the Garrison) for defense and law enforcement respectively dilutes each faction needlessly, and I get the feeling the Watch doesn't get many opportunities to level in Guldorand.

The Merchant Navy was a stroke of genius to create, because it lets characters with very different backrounds and motivations than a regular navy join in, and so creates opportunities for a niche that wouldn't otherwise exist, luring in characters that would never have thought of committing to a city's navy. The fact that it recruits from all over the island is great too - I would never have gone to Guldorand if it wasn't for the Merchant Navy, and let's face it, if there were a regular Guldorand navy instead, the city's population would be considerably smaller. So maybe if, instead of the town watch and garrison being staffed by official soldiers and watchmen from among Guldorand's residents, they were redesigned as a mercenary company that recruited its members from all towns in Arelith and even Skal (like the merchant navy does) it would supply them with enough characters to be viable (not to mention fitting the town's overall chaotic vibe).

As for dungeons, one of the reasons I think seafaring is so successful is because of its roguelike character, because unlike a dungeon you've done a hundred times, the mix of ships, islands and boarding parties you are going to encounter can be more random. This is why I feel the Deep Wells missed the mark by not going full roguelike. If the Deep Wells, instead of being a conglomerate of large epic-level areas, had been designed as something similar to the Sea of Arelith (a hub - the "ship" itself - where you could face random encounters and choose to "board" lower or higher-level dungeons, with the dungeons being made up of smaller areas that were "randomly" connected to one another on every server reset, each area having random creatures and resources), that would have gone a long way towards making the Deep Wells more replayable.

Another reason for the popularity of seafaring is the presence of treasure chests and maps. If the Deep Wells had something similar (elven artifacts that could only be collected if you had, say, an assembled lodestone that guided you to them - and in an area like the Deep Wells, being guided to the destination is important because people often get lost doing writs there), people would want to revisit this dungeon because they already found enough lodestone fragments to assemble and would say 'why not?'.

Something the devs said is great about the Deep Wells is that it's an endurance test for high-level characters, but if I understand correctly, it takes six hours to reach the bottom, which is far too long for most players. If the loot in the Deep Wells included something like single-use items that teleported you to specific locations in the Deep Wells, it would make these dungeons' exploration much more hospitable. An adventuring team would only need to worry about gathering enough teleportation gems to the region they last explored in order to continue their journeys there.

Finally, if any of my characters lived in Guldorand, whoever promised to get rid of that cart on the ramp in the freeport would win their vote.

Apologies if some of what I wrote goes into suggestion territory. I just thought I'd offer examples of how to fix the issues I mentioned.

Altair01 wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:47 am Finally, if any of my characters lived in Guldorand, whoever promised to get rid of that cart on the ramp in the freeport would win their vote.

Unironically yes. One of my characters has spoken these exact words in-game, and meant every single one.

I don't think Guldorand works well with Myon in it. I don't think Guldorand will ever be popular as a settlement so long as that remains like that.

Distant Relation wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:58 pm

Altair01 wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:47 am Finally, if any of my characters lived in Guldorand, whoever promised to get rid of that cart on the ramp in the freeport would win their vote.

Unironically yes. One of my characters has spoken these exact words in-game, and meant every single one.

I can third this - my PC would definitely vote for the Ramp Party.

I think Guldorand is a beautiful city. But I don't think proper thought was given on how to direct player traffic. I think that is suuuuuper essential when designing a multiplayer space. I feel like Guldorand is very spread out. It kind of sets up the square for social RP but I'd say it's way too big. I think Guldorand could stand alone as its own city if Cordor and Myon were removed. But with all these alternative spaces available I feel like it's a lot. Maybe too much!

The old logging camp I think was much easier to navigate. Everything you needed was accessible through a single small map and it always felt very active because everything was located around each other.

I would have the same critique about Cordor in some degree but less so. I'm also a fan of the Hub in the Underdark for the same reason that it creates a standard place everyone goes and your chance to engage in RP or find someone is so much higher. Though I'm aware some people hate the compactness of Andunor so everyone ultimately has a different opinion on what design is best.

But Imo, smaller map. Fill it up and make every corner relevant. Don't spread things out all over the place.

I can only really repeat what I've said elsewhere; Guldorand is one most popular/active city, and its 'hub' area - the indoor market and the squares outside it are almost always busy, its second only in activity to Cordor and Andunor, which both being starter cities will always be busier.

As a server, right now, it is only the city and nothing more, and as such numbers are low, but how does this compare?

Last night Guldorand was high, in the 40s, but when busy generally a dozen less. How often does one find 20 players in Brog, Myon, Bendir? Right now, off peak, its 8. Distant shores, two settlements and a huge amount of dungeon areas is also at 8, Cordor and Planes, a starter city, with attached planes and many dungeons only 6 more at 14.

Eventually we do intend to Add Myon and the Skull Crags to the server, at which point, of course it will seem busier.

Now I would agree there are issues with the constant tension with Myon, with Westcliff not being greatly reduced in size as originally intended, and a lack of activity in Freeport, and the rewards of the Deep Wells, but overall? Guldorand is simply not unpopular, and its hub is highly trafficked.

(edit- since I started writing this it rose to 13, overtaking Cordor.)

Thanks for sharing that, Irongron. I was indeed basing my assessment on the number of players on the servers, rather than the number of players in the city areas themselves - information that I don't have access to.