Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

[TheDoctor]

I like it that there are options how to use the indicators.

I like seeing them on slower writers so I know to hold on. But I don't like to show them myself, because strangely enough they slow down the rp.

I have grown to be quite a fast writer during my time here, so I tend to write descriptive emotes while I wait for the other one to write their response- or mid walking. I noticed that the conversation partner tends to halt writing/walking when they see the quackers. It's a very polite thing to do but it halts the progress.

I am the same way sometimes... For me it depends on a few factors but I can be warp speed typer/fast RP'er but when I do that I make typos (Mostly dyslexic typos but some from fat fingers I admit) so at times I keep it slow. I can certainly relate to typing flavor emotes in between regular talking to each other emotes and have noticed with the quackers that it can slow things down. With that said, yesterday during RP once the people I was playing with realized what I was doing the speed of RP went back to "normal". Just take this with a grain of salt.. Because it happened to flow naturally with me on the ones I was playing with that day does not mean your own results will be similar but... Its possible.

[98lbs of sad carryweight]

I am glad that the devs are still bringing new ideas to keep the server fresh and improving.

However I think this update is trying to fix something that was not broken. I can't stop wondering why so much effort is invested in something no one was asking for when there are major issues yet to be addressed, like the summons update or the need of balance between martials/loremasters and full dedicated casters.

This update is calling even more division among the players. We don't need the "quack team" and the "non-quack team". In this matter, things should stay like was before.

But again, I really appreciate the motivation and effort to try make things always better. You are doing an amazing job, but no one can always hit the mark.

this is a really bad sentiment.

even if this was a paid project with allocated resources, it is still a bad sentiment to approach development.

according to the update log this is made by hoodoo and graphics by starfish, with aid from the nwn community as a whole, none of which are the ones working on balancing and summons from what can find.

So this is saying: Hey, everyone, do NOT update anything that MAY be controversial (which is like, everything) because SOMEWHERE something is not ideal or not done. NWN is 20+ old game with a server a decade old, we'd probably still be in 2015 with this mindset.

sorry if this is harsh but I really hate it as an argument that finds any sort of grip. It be cool if the issues you mentioned would be adressed but I dont think nobody being allowed to do anything or publish anything actually makes them happen faster. They dont get a quick fix because they're large, complex and far reachng issues that arent easily fixed.

anyway quack good, opt in good, many nwn server have it and works ok.

[Hoodoo]

according to the update log this is made by hoodoo and graphics by starfish, with aid from the nwn community as a whole, none of which are the ones working on balancing and summons from what can find.

So this is saying: Hey, everyone, do NOT update anything that MAY be controversial (which is like, everything) because SOMEWHERE something is not ideal or not done. NWN is 20+ old game with a server a decade old, we'd probably still be in 2015 with this mindset.

Thank you for saying this, I was going to comment on this point after I sorted out some of the bugs that came about with the server upgrade, but you got it first.

Yeah, there are plenty of issues currently on the server that need work. Volunteer work aside, software development is not one of those professions where you can just throw as many developers as you can at it and expect an increase in work efficiency.
There's a point of diminishing returns ESPECIALLY when you have something like NWScript, it can actually slow down development if you have too many people working on the same system/project. A focused approach that's vetted, standardized, and iterated (Kudos to Sincra and co. for doing a fantastic job on this during my hiatus) on by the people who are most familiar with said systems is the most consistent way to get a solid pace on updating the important stuff.

Personally? I very rarely create update updates anymore. RL is much too unstable for me and I do not have the time to commit to larger projects/ideas I have. My primary focus on the team right now is server maintenance, upkeep, technical advice, DB work, CI maintenance/updates, bug-fixing, and dealing with our dev tools/NWNX (Though even the dev tools thing has mostly been taken up by Kalopsia). So I found myself free and had the time to create and implement this trial period/experiment. Rest assured, 0 development time was taken up by anyone else on the team, I have been the sole person (along with Starfish initially) to put time into this whole ordeal. Nothing that is urgent has been affected.

I admit that change for changes sake is quite silly and frankly a waste of development time. But there was a want for this feature and some arguments (whether or not you like it) do hold some merit. At the same time (whether you like it or not) there were some serious concerns as to the environment this would foster and the problems it would cause.

So we could just say "Hey there are potential problems, let's scrap it okeydokey no more need to worry about it". But since there were potential upsides, we felt it was worth exploring in a RESPONSIBLE manner. Responsibly exploring ideas is the key to preventing stagnation and is probably one of the reasons Arelith has lasted this long.

At the same time, I also very much disliked the idea of just putting it on the server and forcing everybody to use it, as there were legitimate concerns. I was initially 100% for the entire system, but after doing pre-implementation research by talking to players and staff I was unsure whether I'd even LIKE it in the grand scheme of things. I'm still not sure if I'm 100% on board with it, but I'm learning more day-by-day, post by post, update to update.
Thus the trial period along with a comprehensive respect for players wants/needs. I know there are players that simply cannot play with typing indicators enabled and I did not want to remove them from their past time for 2 entire weeks JUST for an experiment.

There's a lot of tracking being done, feedback being read, evaluated, and acted upon. There are problems with this system and there are upsides. Things are still evolving as people get used to it over the trial, so please keep giving feedback, every post so far has been invaluable in better understanding how this affects the server and the environment we've fostered for so long.

Thank you

[good man of god]

Seems the quackers are now clipping into character's heads rather than floating neatly above them, after the size update.

OG quackers didn't do this.

Could it be something to do with them now not matching the various height parameters each character has?

Seems that changing to M size quackers helped alleviate the clipping, but its still doing it a bit.

Just FYI Hoodoo.

[Hoodoo]

Seems the quackers are now clipping into character's heads rather than floating neatly above them, after the size update.

OG quackers didn't do this.

Could it be something to do with them now not matching the various height parameters each character has?

Seems that changing to M size quackers helped alleviate the clipping, but its still doing it a bit.

Just FYI Hoodoo.

I forgot to include the re-adjusted quackers. I'll get them in by next reset, thanks!

[ReverentBlade]

Some thoughts.

I wish it could filter out - and / so it wouldn't look like you are typing when you are doing ooc stuff.

I am in the habit of leaving "/w" in my chatbar to be ready to reply to the next thing. Thus is looks like I am perpetually typing.

It would also be nice to filter out *. Why? Because I find myself emoting -much- less, and I'm not sure that is a good thing. The reason I emote less is because I notice people waiting for me to finish. Emotes are just something I add for flavor, not something necessary for conversation flow. Having a bunch of people standing around waiting for you to finish lights a cigarette isn't a great feeling. Perhaps this could be an optional per-character setting. More aggressive characters might have emotes that you need to respond to, I suppose.

As a whole, I am leaning towards -not- enjoying the system. I have issues with my nerves and stiff hands, so my typing is very messy. I have to backspace and try again very frequently to make it typo-free. Sometimes I just give up on a line and let the conversation flow without me if it takes too long to get out while it is relevant. Its now very self-conscious to have the dots over my head and people waiting for me while I'm struggling. And now I feel weird if I typed something and thought better of it, and now people are standing expectantly.

Its very nice of people to be inclined to wait, but I don't necessarily want and expect them to. I've adapted to my issues by playing quiet and thoughtful characters. RP feels a little more artificial and forum-like now.

I also don't like that this has the potential to set a social expectation to have to wait for every character to finish typing when walking by. Sometimes there's things to do or the player has limited time, and now instead of having a PC that is busy and occasionally slightly rude, it feels a little more like the player is being rude OOCly, and I don't think that's a great change in the paradigm.

Some Positive Counterpoints:

The whole situation turns on its head during dungeons. The indicators are a godsend for slow typers like me when people are running around. I don't -like- to RP during hunts at all, but it is nice to get people to wait when you do have relevant information to give, or group up for buffs. I will likely set the chat command to a hotbar so I can turn it on only for dungeons.

I like using it to wait for lulls before approaching whispering groups. Polite characters don't necessarily want to interrupt and accidentally overhear things. And I would like it for sneaky characters that DO want to eavesdrop. Your mouth is still moving when you are whispering, so I think a visual indicator is fair enough ICly.

I think having an optional system is likely the best of both worlds, but my recommendation is to have it OFF by default, so that the overall social expectation is to not have them.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

i was initially very hesitant about this for many reasons stated, but after seeing it in action i can definitely say it is beneficial. there are less scenarios of long quiet where no one is typing.

i can understand the elitism concerns as a sentiment, but the reality is that when there are long periods of silence, there are already people who will judge you for your roleplaying pace (without taking typing speed into account). i sometimes wonder if someone is just making me wait on purpose in certain scenarios (this has happened). if anything, people would get used to this over time and i genuinely do not think that it will matter if it results in schisms because the fact is that some people just cannot be pleased no matter what. they are looking for reasons regardless simply because they are shit people and should be avoided. the benefits therefore, outweigh the costs in this regard.

i can likewise share some concerns about the whisper/tell/console commands. personally console commands dont take long to type and it is still probably gonna pop up an indicator if you are, for example, using craft ids to populate your menus. or even writing letters if for example you do not use the pin system. whispering is obvious already; if you are standing close to someone then i usually assume there is whispering going on so this has not changed any existing scenarios at all for me. however, whispering when there is a stealthed character nearby then becomes far more obvious and may lead to "spontaneous" casts of detection spells... but the fact remains that i do this myself, even though this kind of scenario could be kind of unrealistic, narratively speaking, unless you are some kind of shadowdancer or augmenting your stealth with magic. either way, i cannot say whether this is actually a meaningful problem or not.

[Hoodoo]

I am in the habit of leaving "/w" in my chatbar to be ready to reply to the next thing. Thus is looks like I am perpetually typing.

I really appreciate the post as a whole (several very good and valid points), but I just wanted to specifically point out that this isn't a case I had previously considered. I'm going to implement a potential solution for this tomorrow, cheers.

Also, the adjusted quacker locations should be in at next reset. Not going to be announcing it as it's a minor change and I'm already clogging up the thread/channel with announcement after announcement.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

i also wanted to say (but am far too lazy to edit my post on a phone when it has already been sent into the abyss) that as a very fast typer myself, i can reassure most of you that the amount of people who actually care about your typing speed is probably a minority. actually right now we already have an indicator for that in the form of roleplaying pace and periods of silence. it is difficult to tell whether someone is even engaged in the scene at all which is even worse than knowing you type slow. i would never judge someone for typing very slowly, but i can admit to being frustrated with long, repeated periods of silence where i do not even know whether someone is not just semi-permanently not available. so all of you who are worried about your typing speed, take it from me that it is better to know you are typing at all if you are slow vs. having to play guesswork whether you are even present or not

[AddledPunster]

This is probably the single most useful implementation that has been made for me in Arelith. I have noticed that I have an AWFUL habit of running two-topic conversations in my eagerness to make sure that I'm not leaving people hanging on dead air, as it were. Or it's my ADHD. Either way, it's very awkward when I'm not playing a gnome.

Being given a clear indicator that the other person is typing is invaluable for me, so all in all, thank you for implementing this! I hope whatever quirks people are bothered by are able to be hammered out.

Also, I had no idea that these were called "Quackers." The first time I ever encountered this feature was when I was roleplaying on City of Heroes almost 20 years ago.

EDIT: And yes, to back up what In Sorrow We Trust said, I do not rightly care about the typing speed of other people. I can sit comfy when I know someone is drafting a reply, but without an indicator that is happening, my compulsions often win out.

Again, this is probably the single greatest addition made to Arelith for a person like myself. Thank you!

[Eos]

My personal feedback would be that I don't like the quackers and will never use them. I also don't have any other suggestion to add in place of that. I simply wish to cast my vote as "thumbs down" with no further debate or explanation. Thank you for taking this into consideration.

[-stick-]

It would be nice to have one command to switch it on and off for a quick slot, also as has been mentioned certain channels are better off without it

[Marsi]

It's a real QoL for those, who for whatever reason (young, old, second language, social anxiety/trouble picking words, dyslexic) are slow to type, and I know could be made to feel uncomfortable by the speed at which things move around them. As I see it the benefit it grants to those people far outweighs the inconvenience to those that don't need/want It.

I find it interesting that this the reasoning behind the feature, and yet if this thread is any indicator, those most positive about the change are self-confessed fast typers, and those who characterise themselves as slower typers are the ones with concerns.

[AstralUniverse]

I have issues with my nerves and stiff hands, so my typing is very messy. I have to backspace and try again very frequently to make it typo-free. Sometimes I just give up on a line and let the conversation flow without me if it takes too long to get out while it is relevant. Its now very self-conscious to have the dots over my head and people waiting for me while I'm struggling. And now I feel weird if I typed something and thought better of it, and now people are standing expectantly.

Its very nice of people to be inclined to wait, but I don't necessarily want and expect them to. I've adapted to my issues by playing quiet and thoughtful characters. RP feels a little more artificial and forum-like now.

Hells. I couldnt have put it into better words. Absolutely spot on what I feel as well, exactly.

I think we, and anyone else feeling this way, should perhaps try to only see quacks without producing them, and give it a go for a bit, see how it feels.

[Kaninchen]

I'm not super active on the community side of things (I basically check the discord every now and then to see the updates/patch notes and that's it) but I figured I'd toss in a comment of my own regardless since I saw the link to this thread posted.

I am a VERY slow typer. Even when I'm not typing RP-related things, even just figuring out what I want to write out can take me longer than most (ex: the "I am a VERY slow typer" took me like half a minute, because I was deciding how I wanted to open this paragraph, where I wanted it to go, etc). With that already, and now I have to think about my character on top of that? I'll often spend quite a bit backing up, deleting things, going "no my character wouldn't use that word" or "my character speaks with an odd grammar style, I should edit the word order of that sentence" and so on.

What this means is that I can take quite a while to write up a single paragraph for RP, sometimes upwards of 5+ minutes for a several-sentence reply. I get incredibly self-conscious as a result, and sometimes I'll spend a whole conversation just sitting there quietly until someone actually directs a comment at me. It's either that, or type up a response and by the time I'm done, the conversation has already moved on. It's especially egregious out in the wilderness or in dungeons, when I try to suggest we take a rest, or I ask folks to slow down so I can re-apply buffs or heal them, or telling them to hold up because I spotted a trap. Should I type faster? Well... yes, it's something I'm trying to work on. But it's certainly caused me a ton of problems in the past.

Most common is stumbling across someone in a dungeon/the wilds, they give a simple "hey" and I start typing up a proper hello and perhaps even a little emote like "They perk up and step away from the animal they were hunting, wiping blood off their skinning knife" yadda yadda, you get the idea. But I'll be nearly done typing it up and they just... run off. Often with nary a "bye". So then I feel as though I wasted both of our times and look like a creepy silent weirdo (which... okay, I play a Wild Elf who is a creepy weirdo, but that's besides the point).

Testing this out, I've already had improvements. I've already had folks stop and wait, and I get to say my piece. It's less noticeable in urban/common areas where folks are already kinda used to a regular back-and-forth and aren't in a hurry, but out in the wilds and in dungeons? My god, I actually had a proper conversation with someone the other day because they actually waited for my response because of the quacker indicator. My character regularly spends time out in the wilds rather than in town, so RP opportunities are few and far between -- so not having someone dip on me 30 seconds after saying 'hi' (or just doing the voice command "HAIL TO YE") is heavenly.

As for the complaints about abuse and whatnot... I mean, that's going to happen anyways. A while back, I got PvP'd without roleplay (against the rules, I know) because I stumbled across a sketchy individual and, in the time that I was typing up something, they jumped me... and I was literally caught flat-footed IRL because I had zero time to react. Would that person have waited if I had a quacker up? Probably not! The kind of folks who abuse and misuse systems are going to do it regardless. It's inevitable that some people are going to find any little loophole and abuse the hell out of it no matter what. If someone abuses the quackers to ambush other players... that's less an issue of the update, and more an issue of the mechanic-abuse culture some folks have.

My complaints are mainly the same as others -- fixing sizes, making it not show while typing in commands (maybe even having a "wait period" option, so you can set a number of seconds, and if youve been typing longer than that, then it shows the quacker), allowing it on henchmen/summons/etc., reducing the visible range when whispering, and so on. This is something that has, just in testing, already given me a positive experience with roleplaying, and I'd like to see it bugfixed and fleshed out.

[Iceborn]

Oddly, my game experience hasn't changed considerably.
It's nice that I can measure whether other people is thinking, waiting or writing, and I can adjust accordingly - I imagine I have left hundred of scenes without waiting and left a lot of people hung to dry, so it's good that I can tell whether they are cooking something and I can change my pace.

I still haven't had any PvP since this was introduced, and I fully expect somebody will abuse it, but honestly I don't think it'd make a lot of a difference.

For all slow writers, I want to tell you that as a player I will always rather to wait and hear what people has to say. if they aren't writing anything at all I'll just push the conversation or move on, but if there's an active person on the other side of the screen, I don't mind to take my time.

[ltlukoziuz]

Issue with newest update:

So yes - clicking on a portrait to send a tell doesn't produce a quacker... But who's to not let one just delete the start of a message (the "tell command bit") and then continue writing without a quacker. Now yes, while you can switch quacker on and off, not an issue, but if there's ever an idea to make it more mandatory, that will be an issue.

[Coolguy McMagic]

I generally like the quackers from what little I have seen of them in action now. It has caused me to stay silent at times where I would have said something and it compelled me to write something at times when I might have remained silent otherwise. That's neither a good or a bad thing necessarily, but what it definitely helps with are these awkward moments where you are not sure if the other person is waiting for you or not, like when you said your goodbyes or when you are passing by someone.
So that's definitely a plus. I don't think the other ways in which it has impacted my RP so far are significant. It's just a bit different now.

One thing I'd like to comment on are the PVP implications. A lot of concerns have been voiced regarding its potential for abuse in PVP. I think those concerns are generally valid, BUT I think something that seems to have been overlooked thus far is how this also has the potential to impact hostile RP in a positive way. When you engage in hostile RP with the expectation that PVP may occur, and you want to do it fairly, the quackers can help you in deciding when NOT to attack. So after declaring your hostile intent, you can purposefully allow the other party to finish their comment before attacking, or perhaps even decide to not attack after reading what they said. That way, if you are so inclined, you could actively avoid trying to hit them right while they are typing.

There is a tendency for black-and-white thinking when it comes to PVP, where the players are either seen perfect little angels OR killbashing, must-win PVP fiends that want to abuse every angle. While both definitely exist, I think the vast majority of players fall somewhere in the middle, where they want to be fair to the other party, but also don't want to lose just because they got hit while they were still typing. Yes, the quackers certainly can be used inappropriately in PVP scenarios, but they could also help with them. I generally believe that mechanics should be tailored around the people who want to genuinely engage in good RP and sportsmanship, and not around those that want to abuse them for their own gain. If you want to "win" PVP with cheap tactics, you can find ways with or without quackers.

[Mythic]

I'm enjoying the Quackers. As a fast typer and responder, I often fill empty space when I dont see others responding in the past. Now I know they are typing, so I can cool my jets. Good change, hope they stay

I think worrying over them being abused in PvP shouldnt' be a reason for them to not stay. It should only emphasise and make reports easier against those who do abuse them.

[kingmaker]

I think the Quackers are exceedingly useful in keeping a tempo to a conversation. I do not think it problematic to take a bit longer to type and that being visible; speaking over each other or creating unnatural conversations is easily attributed to not knowing when the other person is about to press enter or if they're typing at all.

NWN has been one of the only mediums without typing indicators, and the slow rollout of them across PWs is only beneficial. I'm very glad it's on Arelith.

[Morbidmix]

Love the quakers! Definitely vote to keep them! Any problem anyone has with them could be solved by turning them off for themselves and others, or however they see fit.

[Kuma]

I don't like them and won't use them. If they become mandatory I will protest heavily.

I also dislike the idea this is a purely net-positive accessibility concern - using these gives me MORE anxiety than less, and I know I'm not alone in that.

We've done fine for twenty years with the natural flow of roleplay indicating tempo; I don't need a [so and so is typing...] above anyone's head for that, and I think it's a sign of the times that people feel they need that. Overstimulated dopamine receptors needing a constant assurance of 'activity'.

It feels like a 'well another server/game/app/thing has it so we should too' idea. The fact it also doesn't really work as advertised - it isn't a 'typing indicator', it's a chat bar activity indicator - is kind of the icing on the cake. People are going to use it AS IF it were a real typing indicator, despite the fact it's not, which means it's already a sort of skewed metric (add in the heavy customisability of it to that, too).

[Dreams]

Thanks for putting this up, but I'm concerned that there's already a bunch of players who even in here are poo-pooing people for not using this. It's one of the first concerns I raised about this system.

Reminder RE: Quacker/Typing Indicator Update

This entire trial was designed to be opt-in/opt-out out of respect for players preferences. While it has not been a particularly problematic issue (From what we can see), I thought that I would address this before it goes on any further as we have received a few reports about people asking others to turn their quackers on.

Do NOT do this!

Respect their decision to keep it disabled. Do not guilt-trip, do not say "Try it for the trial", do not think you know better than them. If you genuinely enjoy it, that's good. Leave your feedback in the thread and discuss it with others that also have feedback. But remember that a majority of the players here are adults that know what they want and putting them in the uncomfortable position of having you ask them to turn on an OOC mechanic that could potentially be problematic for them is simply unacceptable.
This is a reportable offence, if this has happened to you, please inform DMs/Active Admins on the forums or via e-mail.

[rosediode]

I like the quackers because it indicates to me another player has something they would like to add to the conversation. I can then pause, and give them room to speak.

I don't understand why it's so controversial. It's not perfectly accurate in reflecting what I'm typing up anyway, but as a tool it has only helped me be more inclusive as a roleplayer.

[Hoodoo]

Thanks for putting this up, but I'm concerned that there's already a bunch of players who even in here are poo-pooing people for not using this. It's one of the first concerns I raised about this system.

We're keeping an eye on it, if it happens to you, report it. Some posts in this feedback skirted the line but I kept it as it had a useful chain of feedback and did, in fact, highlight the negative side of it to a degree.

That being said, in terms of actual reports, there have been (as stated in the announcement) very few instances. It's a definite concern, but as with any new mechanic there's going to be a policy surrounding it along with required etiquette.

And it was a concern before we even put it in, we're seeing what the actual impact is.