Arelith

So, can we get an updates post for the Shadow Mage, since not everyone plays FL, what is it, what makes it so special, what is its main focus and the likes. Since its a semi secret update it would be nice to have real knowledge of the update.

I think its still a little bit work-in-progress (for Regulith) subject to changes... so that's why no official announcement yet.

The version of the path which exists on FL is this: http://wiki.arelith.com/Shadow_Mage

It exists on both servers now, implemented per the wiki description.

There are a couple of tweaks coming still (hellball and G-ruin won't be allowed, as they are thematically evocation, and shadow weave users shouldn't be vulnerable to wild magic zones).

So they will be limited to Shar worshippers?
Are they aways evil or can be neutral also?

Lore wise, people who use the Shadow Weave without paying due respects to Shar go insane, I think.

It's casting spells at the expense of your sanity. It's the same for people who stay on the Shadow Plane for too long, without Shar's protection. The butter slips off their noodles.

Not sure if people would want to RP that though.

Use of Shadow Weave requires Shar worship, otherwise you wither.

Neutral alignment is likely fair game as Shar worship can also be neutral.

Will shadow mages be unable to take epic spells? Assuming they go heavy on shadow dancer levels that is.

If they go heavy on SD levels, no. You need ninth level spells (unless you're a PM), and you won't get those from SD levels.

I guess my one question about Shadow Mages is what they're supposed to be especially good at, aside from their bonuses to enchantment, illusion, and necromancy. Those aren't bad things, but the availability of SD adds nothing to the class at all, aside from gimmick 25/5 builds that have HiPS, or builds with more SD levels that can throw out a few high powered confusions and Ph. Killers, but not many.* These classes really have no synergy with each other. While the bonus to caster level is nice, it's not really worthwhile if the character isn't gaining more spells per day. I may play this, but it's unlikely I'd take SD levels.

*Edit: never mind, it can't even do that. For some reason, while I wrote this, I was under the mistaken impression that CL affects spell DCs.

Well, I assume they do gain more spells per day as the devs were able to get spell progression to work on palemasters and also on Harpers.

But epic spells require you to have 21 levels in the primary class, so I'm mostly curious if they've found a way around that.

Swords to Rust wrote:Well, I assume they do gain more spells per day as the devs were able to get spell progression to work on palemasters and also on Harpers.

They don't. It would be nice to see that implemented, though.

They don't synergize? The build I have in mind is pretty absurd. I can pm you the details if you like.

Just post it here, or in builds n' mechanics. And they don't.

Mr_Rieper wrote:Lore wise, people who use the Shadow Weave without paying due respects to Shar go insane, I think.

It's casting spells at the expense of your sanity. It's the same for people who stay on the Shadow Plane for too long, without Shar's protection. The butter slips off their noodles.

Not sure if people would want to RP that though.

Be interesting if non-Sharrans could become Shadow Adepts but suffered a growing wisdom penalty and an increasing chance to, say, have a confusion effect (saveless, and bypasses mind immunity) inflicted on them whenever they cast.

This would obviously be more for flavor/RP.

High Primate wrote:Just post it here, or in builds n' mechanics. And they don't.

I fail to how HiPS doesn't benefit a wizard. It might not "synergize" like blackguard does with rogue, but my goodness, you get HiPS at no cost to skillpoints, feats or caster level.

Just imagine how frustrating a HiPS-wizard is going to be to your standard meleer not prepared with a scroll of true sight.

You also get Evasion(2) and Uncanny Dodge(2), +to hide equal to your SD level, Darkvision(2), Slippery Mind(7) and Improved Evasion(10) if you go that high.

The standard Wizard/Rogue build is now augmented by the fact that you have HiPS. The build I have? Despite my character having base 14 dexterity she will achieve a Hide and MS in the 80s. And have HiPS. Like, recognize a good thing when you see one. >.<

The downside is that you get less feats, including less epic spell related feats.

Cortex wrote:The downside is that you get less feats, including less epic spell related feats.

This is true, but even so, I've managed to fit in 3 epic spell foci, Epic Hide and Mummy Dust, albeit she is a Sun Elf and I only dipped 7 levels, which is adequate for what I'm trying to achieve.

Can it only be taken at character creation? Or will there be an npc to talk to?

bwpsycho wrote:Can it only be taken at character creation? Or will there be an npc to talk to?

Mith has said this is being mulled over presently, and may or may not be implemented.

Wytchee wrote:
I fail to how HiPS doesn't benefit a wizard. It might not "synergize" like blackguard does with rogue, but my goodness, you get HiPS at no cost to skillpoints, feats or caster level.

It has a cooldown, and the most challenging opponents you meet will have True Sight, rendering it useless. Otherwise, a wizard can survive and perform excellently without it. It is not needed, and 5 additional wizard levels bring better things. Blackguard also does not synergize very well with rogue. You get higher sneaks, but rogue dominant builds with Blackguard are actually not that common or good.

Just imagine how frustrating a HiPS-wizard is going to be to your standard meleer not prepared with a scroll of true sight.

The second you catch it it goes down due to lack of discipline, unless you take more classes in a discipline-class, in which case you have even fewer wizard/sorcerer levels to work with, resulting in a character that can't do much aside from hide in plain sight and has less wizard feats, resulting in having to prioritize between effective DCs on spells or Epic Spells, instead of having both.

You also get Evasion(2) and Uncanny Dodge(2), +to hide equal to your SD level, Darkvision(2), Slippery Mind(7) and Improved Evasion(10) if you go that high.

The more SD levels you take, the more wizard/sorcerer levels you lose, especially if you want to add a third class to get discipline. The less wizard/sorcerer levels you have, the more useless your character is. Those feats won't really make a difference.

The standard Wizard/Rogue build is now augmented by the fact that you have HiPS.

A wizard/rogue is not as good as other options out there. It's no longer standard in the meta. Most people take Wizard/Bard or Wizard/Ranger.

The build I have? Despite my character having base 14 dexterity she will achieve a Hide and MS in the 80s. And have HiPS. Like, recognize a good thing when you see one. >.<

I don't see one. What will it be able to do, aside from that? A lot of classes can get HiPS and high sneak skills, like a 20/5/5 Monk/Rogue/SD, and yet are also useful at other things. What will this character do? What will it contribute to a party? How will it defeat opponents?

All of your responses are fairly subjective, so I'll just address your last.

High Primate wrote:What will it be able to do, aside from that? A lot of classes can get HiPS and high sneak skills, like a 20/5/5 Monk/Rogue/SD, and yet also be useful at other things. What will this character do? What will it contribute to a party? How will it defeat opponents?

She's a CL 27 wizard with three epic spell foci. This questions are rather silly; it's like saying "how does a level 27 wizard contribute to a party? How will it defeat opponents?

Sure, I could have gone with more wizard levels for an extra epic bonus feat, but that's not the type of character I'm trying to build. I honestly don't believe how you or anyone can see a wizard with HiPS as underwhelming, especially with necromantic and enchantment focuses.

It's just different. More powerful against mundane/melee, less powerful against casters.

I honestly don't believe how you or anyone can see a wizard with HiPS as underwhelming, especially with necromantic and enchantment focuses.

And I honestly don't see how people can have a variety of the views that they cleave to. Persuade me with an argument. HiPS has a cooldown of twelve seconds.

(1) Do you have levels in a third class that has discipline? If not, how will you survive those twelve seconds without discipline? A meleer could get you with KD.

(2) If so, how many wizard levels do you end up with?

The least ineffective build I can picture with this is a 22 Wiz/ 5 SD/3 Bard, but even then, the purpose of the build is simply to fit HiPS, which as far as I can tell doesn't add anything very useful.

High Primate wrote: The least ineffective build I can picture with this is a 22 Wiz/ 5 SD/3 Bard, but even then, the purpose of the build is simply to fit HiPS, which as far as I can tell doesn't add anything very useful.

HiPs is circumstantially useful. The loss between 22 Wizard/5 SD/3 Bard and 26 Wizard/4 Bard is only the slight feat difference.

It's not ineffective - it's just trading for HiPs, which isn't a massive loss considering they won't be expending feats on Hellball, Greater Ruin, or Epic Evocation.

The Shadow Mage will have higher DCs and more sneak utility, along with (likely) slightly stronger summons, due to the increase in CL. Traditional Mage will be more well rounded, and have the classic burst playstyle.

Certainly it won't be strong in same sense as the Traditional Mage, but it has its perks. It's far from ineffective or being useless.

High Primate wrote:(1) Do you have levels in a third class that has discipline? If not, how will you survive those twelve seconds without discipline? A meleer could get you with KD.

(2) If so, how many wizard levels do you end up with?

1. No. I'm operating in the same manner a pure wizard would. Is it optimal? No. But if my hasted, sneaky self (who has Web, Grease, Darkness and three vampire summons) is ever within range of a Meleer's knockdown I'm playing my class wrong. Darkness can also be used in lieu of HiPS.

2. 20 Wizard levels, 7 shadowdancer levels, 3 rogue levels. That's a CL of 27. And here's my final skillpoint tally, by the way (after epic skill foci, gifts and gear):

Bluff 30 (66)
Concentration 32 (38)
Disable Trap 30 (45)
Heal 21 (20)
Hide 33 (83 ) edit: Damn +50 cap!
Lore 26 (41)
Move Silently 33 (83)
Open Lock 30 (38)
Search 20 (45)
Spellcraft 32 (67)
Spot 32 (31)
UMD 19 (25)

So I think my position in groups is rather secure. >.>

As Cortex said, it's a manner of preference. Functionally, I'm building a wizard/rogue who has HiPS but three fewer epic feats.

How do You reach Hide 98 if the skills are capped at +50 bonus max ?