Arelith

Don't know about anyone else, but I no longer have any desire to play a PDK anymore with these changes.

Don't want to sacrifice an already valuable feat slot for skill focus, the durations are jokingly short and cause the PDK to be busy maintaining their abilities during combat rather than actually fighting.

Its replicating one of the things I hate most about WoW combat. It makes you spend your time during combat watching your cooldowns rather than watching the fight itself.

The replacement abilities themselves seem extremely meh to me. You've also changed what stats benefit the PDK. Those who have invested a lot of INT into their characters are now going to have wasted those stats.

These change are just too drastic. If you felt PDK was too powerful, couldn't you stick with the direction it was going and just tweaked it rather than just totally overhauling it again? Do you not care about the people who have taken PDK before now and are forced to either delevel or are stuck with these levels?

Another char going to get thrown away. I wouldnt fit PDK in any of my builds unless I was forced now.

Old PDK was vastly overtuned. If you "no longer have a desire to play a PDK anymore," maybe you should examine why you wanted to play one -- specifically, an old one -- in the first place.

gilescorey wrote:Old PDK was vastly overtuned. If you "no longer have a desire to play a PDK anymore," maybe you should examine why you wanted to play one -- specifically, an old one -- in the first place.

Most choose to play a class because its fun and interesting, the moment you remove that element, its no longer worth playing. Though I must say your comment comes off as very aggressive.

I'm not being aggressive. You should probably have a smoke, or something, if you think that constitutes aggression.

PDK is still strong, and I'd almost argue too strong but that's okay because it has big trade-offs in level investment + feat cost. The removed element of being fun and interesting is still there.

Unlimited Hasteand +10 discipline alone was incredibly powerful, as was potentially an unlimited aoe taunt, and a double stacking bard song/curse song array of buffs and debuffs.

The complaint about INT synergy being gone is legitimate but imo the new class is way more thematic for what it's trying to do. And given how Arelith's rest system is tied to a rest meter rather than any given period of time, a trend towards CD based abilities instead of "per day" is a natural way to balance abilities, IMO.

Great changes all around for PDK and I would consider using it in several builds.

I'm uncertain if there is going to be a rebuild offered (don't raise your hopes just in case), but a PDK rework had been announced months prior, and was pointed out as being overtuned not long after its implementation. And I still think it might be leaning to the too strong side but not overly so.

As for INT, I really feel for people who invested into it, and I hope there is something to be done about it.

gilescorey wrote:Old PDK was vastly overtuned. If you "no longer have a desire to play a PDK anymore," maybe you should examine why you wanted to play one -- specifically, an old one -- in the first place.

Because previously it was a neat class with neat abilities. Now the abilities are vastly substandard and there is no point unless you don't like to participate in the fighting and rather spend your time button mashing.

If you think it's wrong to want to play a class because it has neat abilities and makes combat fun to participate in, then maybe YOU need to rethink why you're playing this game

I don't need a class to justify my RP. The class mechanics just have a lot to do with making the game fun to play. Get off your high-horse. You don't decide what's good motivation for people to play classes and what isn't. Different people have different reasons for playing.

gilescorey wrote: I'm not being aggressive. You should probably have a smoke, or something, if you think that constitutes aggression.

Really? Maybe you should stop telling people what to do. People that disagree with you and don't appreciate your attitude CAN have valid opinions, you know

Edit:

Cortex wrote:a PDK rework had been announced months prior, and was pointed out as being overtuned not long after its implementation.

Where was this announced?

1 turn abilities with 3 turn cooldown (1.5 with the ability of your specialization) makes it seem like the intent of this class is to spend the first 2-3 rounds every other fight slapping up party buffs/enemy debuffs (or every fight if you wanna crawl slowly for cooldowns) which doesn't seem like a particularly fun playstyle for a knight.

Some questions, does the cooldown start when you cast or when the effect finishes?
Is the hour long duration of the shield an IG hour or a RL hour? If it's the latter, what happens if you shield someone and they die/log/leave the party, are you stuck unable to apply the shield to anyone else for the remainder of the hour?

The changes to ability score requirements seem like a bit of a kick in the teeth to existing PDK's too, if I'm reading things right, there's no point in taking more than 16 CHA, and INT has been completely removed from the class abilities?

You need to calm down dude, damn. Anyway none of the abilities are substandard, or the hyperbolic substandard that you're claiming. PDK is still good, like I said before, just not in the "dude big numbers lmao xd" lame fashion that it was prior.

TimeAdept wrote:Unlimited Hasteand +10 discipline alone was incredibly powerful, as was potentially an unlimited aoe taunt, and a double stacking bard song/curse song array of buffs and debuffs.

Like I said, they could have kept with their previous direction and just tweaked it rather than completely overhauling it again.

TimeAdept wrote: And given how Arelith's rest system is tied to a rest meter rather than any given period of time, a trend towards CD based abilities instead of "per day" is a natural way to balance abilities, IMO.

If this is true, how bout we bring back favored soul and weave masters. If its not true, then we need to get rid of warlocks and stop playing favorites.

EDIT:

gilescorey wrote:You need to calm down dude, damn.

I'll calm down when you drop the arrogant attitude. And stop telling people what to do and how to react, and whats an okay reason for playing and what isn't.

I would absolutely support bringing back Favored Soul and Weavemaster in a more balanced form.

However, I also think comparing full spellpower to "+1 AB pulse" in a 30 round (180 second) cooldown a little bit different than an AQ3 Weavemaster.

The abilities generally last awhile, so clicking one button that doesn't proc AoO before launching into combat doesn't seem to bad. If all you want to do is play a right click monster, WM is a thing, for sure, but CoT and now PDK offer utility style aura-buff classes in the vein of fighty melee bards that expand that niche in ways beyond just right clicking. I think expanding the melee game to have more options along with the spellcaster game of options is only a good thing for the server.

That said, Book of Nine Swords did the same thing in PnP and was likewise wildly divisive.

Some PDK abilities do draw AoO

CragOrion wrote:I'll calm down when you drop the arrogant attitude. And stop telling people what to do and how to react, and whats an okay reason for playing and what isn't.

chill bro

it's just a game.........................................................................................................

Class rundown, with comparisons:

10 level investment, plus one good and one 'mediocre' pre feat =

HEROIC SHIELD:

15% +1/1 DR on an ally.

Unique ability, pairs very well with anyone who has DR. Additionally stacks with existing DI - so potentially super, super good on a specific tank variant. Also, it's all damage types, so will knock a bunch of damage from casters.

RALLYING CRY:

+1 AB +1 Damage to everyone (Valiant +3 / +3)
+2 extra damage to your ward

Compared to melee/range offensive aspects of a 14-30 bard song it's pretty good, with Valiant, it's better. (Bard song is +2 AB / +3 damage, max.)

INSPIRE COURAGE:

+2 Saves (Protector +4)
1 Negative Status Removed From Ward (Protector: Removes all, for everyone in radius)
Removes Fear from everyone.

Protector increases heroic shield by x2. That's 30% immunity. 30%, that turns your already meaty tank, into something else.

We can compare the save bonus to bard song. A bard is roughly equal to the save bonus at level 15.

A bard never equals the save bonus if you're a protector. (3/3/2, to 4/4/4)

So, again, pretty good.

FEAR

DC~ 31 with minimal investment.
-2 AC / AB / Saves / 10%ASF

With Vanguard
-4

Again, comparable to bard, with a few differences. Though roughly about equal to a level 11 bard, or level 15 with vanguard.

Oath of Wrath:

Losing 2 ac, with no save. (Combined with Vanguard 'Fear') you're reaching level 25 bard AC reduction, not too shabby!

Valiant: +11 Magic Damage (That's pretty huge - and for /all/ your allies? Woah. The biggest damage buff that you can get and, magic damage to boot.)
Vanguard: +15% damage vulnerability. (Pairing super well with everything!)
Protector: -2 AB, 20% Spell Failure (A good all around defensive ability - though likely weaker than the others because of the outstanding 30% immunity you can top someone off with)

Pretty awesome all around, really.

Final Stand:

A mediocre scaling heal, but offers healing empowerment - which is great for any static location fights.

Valiant: 10 Regen for everyone (100 healing over the duration.)
Protector: 20% elemental immunity and 5/+10 DR for a turn. (Pairs super well with whatever tank you're already making nigh invulnerable)
Vanguard: AoE Immobilisation with no save. (Fantastic for fleeing enemies, fantastic for saving allies)

I mean, really, this still looks a little overturned for the benefits - but it's certainly a lot healthier than the previous iteration.

I'm curious how, exactly, you think the new PDK doesn't follow the direction of the original, given that both classes were martial focused party/self buffing classing, with five abilities that have varying effectivenesses depending on which of the three subclasses you picked, with one focused on offense, one on defense, and one on a middle ground/utility buffing, and abilities being largely cooldown based, with some being instant-activation. Without keeping the exact specific (And ridiculously broken) effects, I don't know how the new class could have "kept to the previous direction" any further.

Favored Souls and Weave Masters are impossible to balance relative to normal bards/sorcerers as long as they're allowed to pick spells as they wish from the same list. You would literally need to adjust every arcane spell in the game for these two classes.

As for the announced rework: Pretty much everyone in the discord has been parroting the line of "PDK is so broken there's no way they're not going to rework it" since like... an hour after it got added in? This has been posted on the forums a few times too.

There were posts in the forums about the rework but the search function is mean to me and won't allow me to look past page 1...

Nitro wrote:1 turn abilities with 3 turn cooldown (1.5 with the ability of your specialization) makes it seem like the intent of this class is to spend the first 2-3 rounds every other fight slapping up party buffs/enemy debuffs (or every fight if you wanna crawl slowly for cooldowns) which doesn't seem like a particularly fun playstyle for a knight.

Some questions, does the cooldown start when you cast or when the effect finishes?
Is the hour long duration of the shield an IG hour or a RL hour? If it's the latter, what happens if you shield someone and they die/log/leave the party, are you stuck unable to apply the shield to anyone else for the remainder of the hour?

The changes to ability score requirements seem like a bit of a kick in the teeth to existing PDK's too, if I'm reading things right, there's no point in taking more than 16 CHA, and INT has been completely removed from the class abilities?

You can take more CHA if you want to benefit from bard levels or Divine Might/Shield. INT was removed altogether.

As for the fun factor, this is an interesting topic to touch on. Why do you think it isn't fun? What about it is different from other buff oriented builds/classes? Worth to keep in mind Heroic Shield and Oath of Wrath are both free actions. And I don't expect you'll use each of the abilities every encounter.

CragOrion wrote:

TimeAdept wrote: And given how Arelith's rest system is tied to a rest meter rather than any given period of time, a trend towards CD based abilities instead of "per day" is a natural way to balance abilities, IMO.

If this is true, how bout we bring back favored soul and weave masters. If its not true, then we need to get rid of warlocks and stop playing favorites.

EDIT:

gilescorey wrote:You need to calm down dude, damn.

I'll calm down when you drop the arrogant attitude. And stop telling people what to do and how to react, and whats an okay reason for playing and what isn't.

I don't think comparing PDK (melee prc) to Warlock (spell-focused bard path) is reasonable here.

Cortex wrote:I'm uncertain if there is going to be a rebuild offered (don't raise your hopes just in case), but a PDK rework had been announced months prior, and was pointed out as being overtuned not long after its implementation. And I still think it might be leaning to the too strong side but not overly so.

As for INT, I really feel for people who invested into it, and I hope there is something to be done about it.

How does the current system handle an illegal pre-existing character? So without the prereq feats will you be locked from going from PDK 4 to 5? What about a completely unrelated class like barbarian on a character with PDK levels?

Except with this update, PDK is no longer a melee class. It's a button-mashing ability maintenance class.

To answer Cortex, that is exactly why its not fun. Because the durations are so short, you basically have to keep activating them to keep them being of any use, which ties you up and keeps you from actually participating in melee

As an aside, it's worth noting that the cooldown mechanics for PDK abilities do not share the same balance issues present with Weavemasters and Favored Souls.

Weavemasters and Favored Souls shared the same spells with Wizards, Sorcerers and Bards. This meant that a spell had to be balanced for both Vancian casters, and casters that had an infinite number of that spell. Unless you wanted to re-write how each spell functioned for each class, which would be a mess of information for any player to keep track of, this was a persistent issue.

That same issue isn't present with PDK, which has its own unique abilities.

hoshi wrote:

Cortex wrote:I'm uncertain if there is going to be a rebuild offered (don't raise your hopes just in case), but a PDK rework had been announced months prior, and was pointed out as being overtuned not long after its implementation. And I still think it might be leaning to the too strong side but not overly so.

As for INT, I really feel for people who invested into it, and I hope there is something to be done about it.

How does the current system handle an illegal pre-existing character? So without the prereq feats will you be locked from going from PDK 4 to 5? What about a completely unrelated class like barbarian on a character with PDK levels?

If that is the case we'll solve it for these affected characters.

I mean, you only push a few buttons. Sure it's more than a standard WM, but.. eh? Did you not use the abilities before the change? O_o

Heroic Shield -> Hour so, not really mashy.
Rallying Cry -> Instant, so doesn't stop you doing anything else.
Inspire Courage -> Push to remove fear, or boost saves, restore or double-down on shield for protector (So like, you'd use this if you needed to - but not really before, as a buff)
Fear -> Yes, you would use this when off CD.
Oath of Wrath -> Instant, so doesn't stop you doing anything else.
Final Stand -> Again, like inspire, you'd use this when you needed to, not really as a buff.

So, you got like, one buff to use on someone before a fight.
Fear to use before each fight (As a curse song type deal)

Two abilities that are instant, so you can be meleeing someone at the same time as using.

Then two abilities that you'd use depending on how the fight goes.

CragOrion wrote:

TimeAdept wrote:Unlimited Hasteand +10 discipline alone was incredibly powerful, as was potentially an unlimited aoe taunt, and a double stacking bard song/curse song array of buffs and debuffs.

Like I said, they could have kept with their previous direction and just tweaked it rather than completely overhauling it again.

TimeAdept wrote: And given how Arelith's rest system is tied to a rest meter rather than any given period of time, a trend towards CD based abilities instead of "per day" is a natural way to balance abilities, IMO.

If this is true, how bout we bring back favored soul and weave masters. If its not true, then we need to get rid of warlocks and stop playing favorites.

EDIT:

gilescorey wrote:You need to calm down dude, damn.

I'll calm down when you drop the arrogant attitude. And stop telling people what to do and how to react, and whats an okay reason for playing and what isn't.

Please be respectful, Crag. You had stated that classes did not affect your RP - and brought this thread up. Players have given legitimate responses that has brushed you wrong. However, they were not malicious intent.

To everyone:

Be respectful of one another - no more passive aggressive remarks. It is warranted to the original poster, or anyone who offers input.

If this topic cannot be conducted respectfully of one another, it will be shut down before it begins to get worse. This is the one and only warning.

CragOrion wrote:Except with this update, PDK is no longer a melee class. It's a button-mashing ability maintenance class.

To answer Cortex, that is exactly why its not fun. Because the durations are so short, you basically have to keep activating them to keep them being of any use, which ties you up and keeps you from actually participating in melee

In most cases the new durations are identical to the old ones, except that they aren't lengthened by lingering song/lasting inspiration. The only ability that has a drastically shorter duration is the Vanguard upgrade to Oath of Wrath, but since it's now on cool down instead of 1/day, I don't see that being too huge of a deal.

Keep in mind that 1 turn = 10 rounds, or 1 minute IRL.