Arelith

Keen Senses & -walk command:
From an RP perspective Keen Senses makes me feel awkward as a rogue because of the clumsy dash. I currently cannot get -walk commands to work. I still end up doing a clumsy dash. -walk is possibly bugged?

Hit Die change:
Tried levelling and delevelling to try to get hit die change to kick in. 147hp prior to level. 153 after with 15 levels or rogue - would expect hit points to leap by ~1hp per existing rogue level? [FIXED!]

Sword & Dagger Specialization:

No obvious bugs. Weapons Specializations appear correctly listed on character sheet. Compared AB of identical metal types of dagger/dagger and rapier/dagger and are identical as intended / should be.

Rogue Smokescreen Description:

The description is somewhat vague on its effects. Would suggest all rogue items may need a pass to ensure they are informative on their abilities whilst maintaining a strong rogue RP flavour.

Epic Feat: Blinding Speed Clarification Required:

Blinding Speed normally requires a Dex of 25 to qualify. Is this still required? If so, this makes it difficult for Human rogues to qualify, as oppposed to Elves / Halflings. Lowering the requirements and promoting stat diversity might be beneficial. I would personally suggest Keen Senses might be replaced by some form of DEX bonus to aid Blinding Speed qualification - and allow INT / DEX rogue builds greater flexibility.

Blinding Speed appears to be a strong central pillar of the changes. Yet some rogues might not qualify. If I understand correctly.

16 starting dex, +2 from gift, and +1 from every 4 levels will bring you to 25 dex by lvl 28.

18 starting dex, +2 from gift, and +1 from every 4 levels will bring you to 25 at lvl 20 letting you take it at lvl 21 if you do desire.

Unless you mean to play a dex build with less then 16 dex before gifts, or dont intend to take a gift, blinding speed seems perfectly accessible for human dex builds.

You don't appear to receive the weapon finesse at level 2 (i decided to rebuild my character from scratch).
Seems like a bug?

No longer being able to toggle your walking via Search Mode is an unfortunate side-effect of having the Keen Senses feat, and an aspect of the vanilla game. Anyone who plays an elf is familiar with the limitations.

I've found shift-clicking to walk as a decent alternative, though it does take getting used to. If the -alwayswalk command isn't working properly, that is something we'll look into.

Regarding Blinding Speed, it should be generally available to any race/subrace as long as you've invested into DEX as a primary stat. It is actually more accessible than Epic Dodge, which is a capstone of dex-based Rogues.

Tathkar Eisgrim wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:40 am Epic Feat: Blinding Speed Clarification Required:

Blinding Speed normally requires a Dex of 25 to qualify. Is this still required? If so, this makes it difficult for Human rogues to qualify, as oppposed to Elves / Halflings. Lowering the requirements and promoting stat diversity might be beneficial. I would personally suggest Keen Senses might be replaced by some form of DEX bonus to aid Blinding Speed qualification - and allow INT / DEX rogue builds greater flexibility.

Blinding Speed appears to be a strong central pillar of the changes. Yet some rogues might not qualify. If I understand correctly.

25 dex is very reasonable, I literally cannot imagine playing a dex character with such a low key attribute I couldn't get blinding speed.

17 starting dex is easily attainable with any race that doesn't have a dex penalty. Take a dex gift for 19, and you'll have 25 dex by 24 with no feats spent.

yellowcateyes wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:04 pmI've found shift-clicking to walk as a decent alternative, though it does take getting used to. If the -alwayswalk command isn't working properly, that is something we'll look into.

That, and I bind reverse to X and walk to S. Also takes some getting used to, but it's handy.

While I definitely think that Rogues needed some buffs... some of this seems a little extreme to me, and could probably use some tweaks in my opinion.

Stealth Speed - Between a 50% stealth speed increase and the nigh infinite haste allowed by Blinding Speed, are not rogues going to be faster in stealth than running characters?

Detection Bonuses - This especially seems excessive. Doing a little quick math, an elf rogue can achieve a spot of 69 with no feats and just the 0 ecl gift. (6 gift + 33 ranks + 2 elf + 2 keen sense + 10 rogue bonues + 14 gear + 2 buffed wis) This can easily then be buffed by a further +25 using Cairaudience/Clairvoyance and True Sight for a total of 94. 104 if you take ESF. Seems to me that it is impossible to achieve a disguise high enough to beat that check using Bluff, and near impossible with Perform, even with a buff from Bard Song. Not to mention that this renders stealth for all but the most dedicated Shadowdancers utterly irrelevant in the presence of a Rogue.

Specialty Weapons - An AB buff was certainly necessary, but applying it as an increase to held weapons also make DR spells useless against a Rogue. Intentional?

Lightly Armored - Not really certain what the point of this is, honestly. Any rogue who builds for Dex still cannot wear armor, as even with the new AC buff, their AB and skills will get destroyed by the Max Dex bonus.

Special Consumables - If I'm reading this correctly, many of these apply a penalty with no save to anyone who passes through them. Depending on the actual numbers used, it seems that Mirror Dust and Beholder Dust are the nastiest of this variety. The save for the Caltrops and the Flashbang also seems pretty high. An average 24/6 build will have a Reflex DC of about 36, which is the equivalent of about a 6th lvl spell being cast by a lvl 30 wizard with all three appropriate Spell Focus feats for that school, and the wizard's target gets to use their Spellcraft.

Thieves Cant - I would imagine I am not alone in being highly disappointed that nothing regarding the Cant was changed. With anyone who takes a Rogue dip being able to speak it... its still useless. Utterly.

Essentially, I super appreciate the time that went into working on Rogues, but I think that these changes make them far too good at everything. With the AB increases, they are now arguably one of, if not the, highest DPS class. They have the best detection values of any class with the Spot/Listen increases. They have access to nigh permanent haste with Blinding Speed. A high level rogue is now one of the more interesting utility players, with new items that grant no save debuffs or high DC crowd control. They still receive far more skill points than any other class. And on top of all that, they now have a great Hit Die.

Ridiculously Circuitous Plans wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:28 pm
Lightly Armored - Not really certain what the point of this is, honestly. Any rogue who builds for Dex still cannot wear armor, as even with the new AC buff, their AB and skills will get destroyed by the Max Dex bonus.

Max dex bonus on armor -only- affects AC gotten from the item.
AB, and skills are not affected beyond the armor penalty, it's always been like this, so you're a bit wrong on this.

Also Rogue in general was one of the weaker classes, i wouldn't say many of the buffs are over the top, but admittingly since i remade my character from scratch to fix some serious design flaws (pure RP build rogue, still aiming for it, but just a few tweaks to make it
more viable) i've not had the chance to test the changes, so can't comment..

The only thing i agree with is the movement speed shouldn't stack with haste, and consumables.. leaves to be seen how they actually work so i imagine in a few weeks times we can comment eh.

I understand most the changes but not the why going to 1d8 hp. Won't this mean all the other low hp classes are going to want a hp boost?

Sab1 wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:53 pm I understand most the changes but not the why going to 1d8 hp. Won't this mean all the other low hp classes are going to want a hp boost?

They're either specialized PrCs or casters. Not someone who's in melee range.

There is a lot I could say on this update, but I do not like taking the pedestal of communication from the creator, YCE.

But I feel safe saying that the stealth speed bonus does not stack with haste or other speed enhancements. It is capped.

(Also the assorted consumables are a Lot of fun.)

I find two things curious...both related to the speed question.

1) We keep doing things we say definitively we're not going to do.
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2465&p=20851&hilit=rogue#p20851

and

2) Didn't we just remove speed from Kensai because it was too OP (especially in PvE) and kneecap the Barbarian speed perk to eliminate their running /from/ potential? Those might not be the precise reasons, but sheer survivability and advantage speed grants in PvE and PvE has been cited by the staff in the past as requiring removal.

This all makes me want to go out and make a Rogue (along with the other half of the server)...since I prize convenience and survivability in a character...but the cynical side of me wonders if this wont be the first to go in any forthcoming rebalance?

1) Is a post from 3 years ago.

2) The move speed applies exclusively to stealth, you don't rely on it in combat like a kensai or barbarian could. It's really less about combat efficiency and more about a QoL to stalk people.

re: 2) I don't mind the stalking enhancements...but I foresee blinding speed allowing well-built, rogue-heavy combat variants (i.e. the 24/6 builds) to haste 3 recover 4 repeat...which most certainly affects combat efficiency.

RedGiant wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:02 am re: 2) I don't mind the stalking enhancements...but I foresee blinding speed allowing well-built, rogue-heavy combat variants (i.e. the 24/6 builds) to haste 3 recover 4 repeat...which most certainly affects combat efficiency.

It's still an epic feat to take, one which doesn't stack with haste, and an effect that is available to anyone else. The only advantages are that it's instant and lasts longer.

If it becomes a problem, I'm also certain it will be adjusted.

I don't mind the change, but then I didn't mind Kensai or fast barbarians. Not to derail the thread, but I really would like to see the blinding speed feat become useful for everyone. I would humbly suggest that blinding speed both be on a timer and have that duration for everyone that can manage the requirements to actually get the feat. As is, its the equivalent of one haste potion a day.

Maaaybe just keep the rogue perk to subtract from the cooldown? (Or make that for everyone too, but key it off the amount of primary class?)

It's on a cooldown for everyone already. All rogues get is the lowered cooldown.

Thank you and glad to see changes to the rogue class.


One question I do have though is will the items gained from the -rogue command only be usable by the rogue who requisitioned them or will we soon see them being sold in shops and available to everyone with UMD?

My second question was how the damage scales for the special consumables?


(edited to add second question)

As I got the go ahead, I'll answer a few things here that no one has gotten to or hasn't become self evident.

StandingOnTheShouldersOfGiants wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:38 am Thank you and glad to see changes to the rogue class. One question I do have though is will the items gained from the -rogue command only be usable by the rogue who requisitioned them or will we soon see them being sold in shops and available to everyone with UMD?

The items made through the -rogue command can only be used by rogues of an appropriate level to make them. It is purely a rogue level investment perk. They are also fantastic.

As I quoted that before the second question: I will not talk about numbers or the brass tacks because frankly that isn't my place, but can confirm they are useful at epic levels through testing.

Tathkar Eisgrim wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:40 am Rogue Smokescreen Description:

The description is somewhat vague on its effects. Would suggest all rogue items may need a pass to ensure they are informative on their abilities whilst maintaining a strong rogue RP flavour.

Every description was written as it was for FOIG flavor. I think you will be pleased with the final result when you get to play with them and experiment.

Ridiculously Circuitous Plans wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:28 pm Stealth Speed - Between a 50% stealth speed increase and the nigh infinite haste allowed by Blinding Speed, are not rogues going to be faster in stealth than running characters?

They'll be the same speed as running characters, provided that character also has haste up.

Ridiculously Circuitous Plans wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:28 pm Detection Bonuses - This especially seems excessive. Doing a little quick math, an elf rogue can achieve a spot of 69 with no feats and just the 0 ecl gift. (6 gift + 33 ranks + 2 elf + 2 keen sense + 10 rogue bonues + 14 gear + 2 buffed wis) This can easily then be buffed by a further +25 using Cairaudience/Clairvoyance and True Sight for a total of 94. 104 if you take ESF. Seems to me that it is impossible to achieve a disguise high enough to beat that check using Bluff, and near impossible with Perform, even with a buff from Bard Song. Not to mention that this renders stealth for all but the most dedicated Shadowdancers utterly irrelevant in the presence of a Rogue.

A focussed wisdom class, or a focussed ranger can achieve this already.
Rogues are dropping very vital things to get ESF's, notably other ESF's that they need to stay alive. In the case of sneak-combat, if a rogue can spot you, you're likely going to be spotting them.

Ridiculously Circuitous Plans wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:28 pm Specialty Weapons - An AB buff was certainly necessary, but applying it as an increase to held weapons also make DR spells useless against a Rogue. Intentional?

I believe it would be intentional. It encourages non-monk rogues (Monk still retains top damage with its epic flailing). It's also not as bad as it appears, a heavily invested rogue is going to have pretty poor saves - even with the change you'll not see any rogues running at mages head on... at least ones that will be successful.

Ridiculously Circuitous Plans wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:28 pm Lightly Armored - Not really certain what the point of this is, honestly. Any rogue who builds for Dex still cannot wear armor, as even with the new AC buff, their AB and skills will get destroyed by the Max Dex bonus.

You'll be getting a bit of extra AC in leather armour... It also helps with their levelling curve as they'll be able to get more AC earlier on in studded leather.

The most skill reduction you'll see in light armour is -1, from studded or hide. It's not a bad trade off even if you're using that.

Ridiculously Circuitous Plans wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:28 pm Special Consumables - If I'm reading this correctly, many of these apply a penalty with no save to anyone who passes through them. Depending on the actual numbers used, it seems that Mirror Dust and Beholder Dust are the nastiest of this variety. The save for the Caltrops and the Flashbang also seems pretty high. An average 24/6 build will have a Reflex DC of about 36, which is the equivalent of about a 6th lvl spell being cast by a lvl 30 wizard with all three appropriate Spell Focus feats for that school, and the wizard's target gets to use their Spellcraft.

Rogue grenades aren't party friendly and affect the rogue as well, so they're not FnF consumables. You have to be somewhat tactful with them.

It'd be pretty difficult to compare the mages spellbook with rogue grenades, but some food for thought:

1 Grenade / round with an inbuilt grace immunity vs 2 spells / round
1 round duration grenades vs > duration CC
Saveless spells (Including the 6th circle spell acid fog and IGMS)
You don't need 30 wizard to max DC's

Ridiculously Circuitous Plans wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:28 pm Thieves Cant - I would imagine I am not alone in being highly disappointed that nothing regarding the Cant was changed. With anyone who takes a Rogue dip being able to speak it... its still useless. Utterly.

It depends what you're using it for. I guess if you're using it as intended, to communicate with other rogues, it's pretty good.

If you're using it for secret communication, there's no other language that offers that and I don't see why their should be. If you want to secretly communicate, nothing is stopping you making up your own IC!

Ridiculously Circuitous Plans wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:28 pm Essentially, I super appreciate the time that went into working on Rogues, but I think that these changes make them far too good at everything. With the AB increases, they are now arguably one of, if not the, highest DPS class. They have the best detection values of any class with the Spot/Listen increases. They have access to nigh permanent haste with Blinding Speed. A high level rogue is now one of the more interesting utility players, with new items that grant no save debuffs or high DC crowd control. They still receive far more skill points than any other class. And on top of all that, they now have a great Hit Die.

They're probably mid-tier; damage is mediocre and exceptionally dependant on the environment (Monk/rogues don't have their damage changed and they do more), they're still very reliant on corner sneaking but to utilise the new things to their full extent you've got to play around LoS in a much more dangerous way then a monk or someone with HIPS can, they have the potential to have big detection values (Though that doesn't facilitate an optimal build IMO considering the numerous ways to counter sneakers without detect) and they're a primary reflex save only class, which makes them vulnerable to saves.

I'm leery of rogues getting the hit die buff, unless it were to be gated behind five or more levels in the class. I don't see any good reason that characters that took rogue purely for the dip should get any benefit out of the changes.

I'm leery of the saveless grenades, for obvious reasons.

I'm also disappointed that thieves can't wasn't gated behind lvl 5. This still means it is useless because every paladin and every single other non rogue character that took the 3 lvl dip, of which there are very many, still understands everything being said.

As well, this sort of seems like a sharp buff to the Dex WM, which I don't think really needed it.

A 3 rogue dip is 6 hp more now. Not even close to game changing. Let's stop sensationaling this.

I really appreciate all the hard work that the DEVs are putting into Arelith.
But I admit I do not understand the reason for constant buffing of all classes. It only causes unnecessary power creep. Rogues were very fine before, as they were part of many of the strongest builds.
By this change the already strong builds like Rog13/Ftr10/WM7 were made even stronger.
-V-

By "part of the strongest builds" you mean 3 levels.

Rogue as a class beyond 13107 was extremely low tier - low HP, poor saves, poor AB (double so if dual weilding) and class features that just plain shut off anywhere Undead were.