Arelith

Remove the enchanting mechanic away from only enchantment focuses. The amount of scarcity when it comes to enchanters, being able to find them, and just, in general, the sort of silliness it comes with them being locked behind feats when in the world of Forgotten Realms basically anyone with caster levels (and usually feats) can make magical items.

What I propose, is that character level in specific classes instead determines the above.

Since the following are full caster clerics, they could instead do enchantment like above, earmarked.

Cleric
Druid
Wizard
Sorc

5th Level: +1 Skill, 33% Success with Runic, 10% Cost Reduction
15th Level: +2 Skills at 15th level, 66% Success with Runic, 20% Cost Reduction
25th Level: 100% Success with Runic, 35% Cost Reduction

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'Off casters', potentially could be considered as well as Bards, Rangers, Paladins, and Warlocks are capable of making enchanted goods in DnD, and one of the Warlock's 'big deals' is that they can micmic/falsify spell/class created enchanted goods for their own nefarious purposes anyway.

Bard/Warlock
Ranger/Paladin

10th Level: +1 Skill, 33% Success with Runic, 10% Cost Reduction
20th Level: +2 Skills at 15th level, 66% Success with Runic, 20% Cost Reduction
25th Level: 100% Success with Runic, 35% Cost Reduction

I really, really, really like this suggestion.

The antiquated and illogical nature of Arelith's enchanting system is a pet-peeve of mine, and many others' I'm sure. Red Ropes' original post (summarized above) pretty much addresses everything I personally take issue with, and I find myself curious as to what others think. Here's hoping this sparks some discussion.

I think these changes might work. But, I still think having a spell focus in Enchantment should offer a bonus.

There still need to be a benefit to taking enchantment focus.

If anything, Transmutation should provide a benefit. Enchantment is not related to imbuing magical properties into items, but those who took it for that intention should be compensated with something like a new, effective Epic Spell for Enchanters only that fits thematically. Arcane enchantment spells can be pretty useful (thanks Peppermint!) already. Yes, Clerics/Druids who took it would be screwed but I'd wager that's a very miniscule minority.

Enchantment is the school of manipulating the mind, right? Why would studying it grant a bonus to altering an item's properties?

I get that the school is underwhelming already, but shoehorning this misplaced "bonus" (that should really be a base feature for all spellcasters) onto it seems to me like a less than ideal way to handle things.

As Red Ropes suggested, perhaps allow an epic Enchanter to permanently bind something to their service, or give them a passive buff to bluff/perform/persuade/intimidate.

Maybe give them a Zone of Truth type spell that applies a heavy debuff to bluff/perform.

Perhaps have an epic spell that paralyzes a large group for half a round with no save, or taunts all enemies in the area, or something even crazier like a mass geas that dampens controversial thought, making the area a temporary no-pvp zone.

But I just got epic enchantment! You can't do this to me!

I would rather see more options for current enchanters.

The suggestion ongoing looks like rather kind of "let me enchant stuff without me investing into inferior spell focus linies". So, yes, modifications. But tied closely to the enchanting focuses, so they are worth to pick.

Not just piling up more mechanical boons and power onto several few useful spell focuses.

JediMindTrix wrote: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:24 pmIf anything, Transmutation should provide a benefit.

Transmutation does provide these benefits on Arelith Fixed Level. The reason that wasn't ported over when so many other features were is because the Enchantment system is so heavily ingrained in mechanical balance, character builds, and IC culture. Changing Enchantment would turn the IC economy upside down and completely invalidate a number of characters, likely requiring rebuilds.

The staff is aware that it's not quite as it should be, (or was during the reign of Mithreas) but this is a huge issue to tackle, so I wouldn't count on seeing changes any time soon, unless someone has been secretly working on a new system for the past few years.

How about buffing enchantment focus so that more casters are inclined to go that way, thus increasing availability, instead of just giving the ability to everyone. It does seem like a bid to get the extra benefits for little to no compromise. Everyone can already enchant as it is.

flower wrote: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:05 pm I would rather see more options for current enchanters.

The suggestion ongoing looks like rather kind of "let me enchant stuff without me investing into inferior spell focus linies". So, yes, modifications. But tied closely to the enchanting focuses, so they are worth to pick.

Not just piling up more mechanical boons and power onto several few useful spell focuses.

The suggestion was: "Let all spellcasters create magical items, regardless of their preferred field of study, because this is more congruent with the way things work within the world of Forgotten Realms."

I do agree, Enchantment needs buffs, but the current bonuses make no sense thematically, and only barely make sense mechanically. Why not make the school better on its own merits, rather than holding item creation hostage behind three sub-par feats?

PinataPlethora wrote: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:16 pm

JediMindTrix wrote: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:24 pmIf anything, Transmutation should provide a benefit.

Transmutation does provide these benefits on Arelith Fixed Level. The reason that wasn't ported over when so many other features were is because the Enchantment system is so heavily ingrained in mechanical balance, character builds, and IC culture. Changing Enchantment would turn the IC economy upside down and completely invalidate a number of characters, likely requiring rebuilds.

The staff is aware that it's not quite as it should be, (or was during the reign of Mithreas) but this is a huge issue to tackle, so I wouldn't count on seeing changes any time soon, unless someone has been secretly working on a new system for the past few years.

With the changes proposed here, all casters, even the ones with Enchantment focuses, would be able to create items and contribute to the economy. Nobody would be invalidated, that I can think of. Maybe I'm missing something, though.

Basementfellow wrote: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:25 pmThe suggestion was: "Let all spellcasters create magical items, regardless of their preferred field of study, because this is more congruent with the way things work within the world of Forgotten Realms."

All classes can already create magical items, not just caster classes. Enchanters are and should be special and get benefits that others do not.

MissEvelyn wrote: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:29 pm

Basementfellow wrote: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:25 pmThe suggestion was: "Let all spellcasters create magical items, regardless of their preferred field of study, because this is more congruent with the way things work within the world of Forgotten Realms."

All classes can already create magical items, not just caster classes. Enchanters are and should be special and get benefits that others do not.

As said several times already, Enchanters manipulate the mind. The school has nothing to do with item creation. I am strongly of the opinion that, for the sake of consistency within the setting, the mechanics should reflect this, and the school should receive buffs that fall in line with it's established theme, rather than arbitrarily locking end-game equipment behind a specific and ill-fitting three feats.

Basementfellow wrote: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:37 pm

MissEvelyn wrote: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:29 pm

Basementfellow wrote: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:25 pmThe suggestion was: "Let all spellcasters create magical items, regardless of their preferred field of study, because this is more congruent with the way things work within the world of Forgotten Realms."

All classes can already create magical items, not just caster classes. Enchanters are and should be special and get benefits that others do not.

As said several times already, Enchanters manipulate the mind. The school has nothing to do with item creation. I am strongly of the opinion that, for the sake of consistency within the setting, the mechanics should reflect this, and the school should receive buffs that fall in line with it's established theme, rather than arbitrarily locking end-game equipment behind a specific and ill-fitting three feats.

That's not an argument for why all pure-ish casters should get the extra benefits that the school enjoys right now, though. Which also happen to be the only benefits aside from DC and inficast. Perhaps a suggestion to the make the school more thematically appropriate and attractive should precede one to completely dismantle it mechanically.

And again, all classes can enchant/create magic items, currently. Specialists, whether in enchantment as it is right now or something else, should have a hefty benefit given the trade off required (which is huge for enchantment, right now). Not just give it to over half of the classes for little compromise.

Silvard wrote: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:53 pm

Basementfellow wrote: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:37 pm

MissEvelyn wrote: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:29 pm

All classes can already create magical items, not just caster classes. Enchanters are and should be special and get benefits that others do not.

As said several times already, Enchanters manipulate the mind. The school has nothing to do with item creation. I am strongly of the opinion that, for the sake of consistency within the setting, the mechanics should reflect this, and the school should receive buffs that fall in line with it's established theme, rather than arbitrarily locking end-game equipment behind a specific and ill-fitting three feats.

That's not an argument for why all pure-ish casters should get the extra benefits that the school enjoys right now, though. Which also happen to be the only benefits aside from DC and inficast. Perhaps a suggestion to the make the school more thematically appropriate and attractive should precede one to completely dismantle it mechanically.

And again, all classes can enchant/create magic items, currently. Specialists, whether in enchantment as it is right now or something else, should have a hefty benefit given the trade off required (which is huge for enchantment, right now). Not just give it to over half of the classes for little compromise.

Some more thematically appropriate buffs to the school have been suggested, though no one responded to them. Admittedly, I'd hoped someone with more game-design sense would chime in with ideas as well, but yes, I agree. Obviously, the school should be made more attractive-- I felt that went without saying.

The argument for opening high-end item creation to all casters comes down to, as the original suggestion posits, the scarcity of epic enchanters.

I have an epic enchanted who has never been approached to have work done even with having done enchanting for herself several times in the middle of a busy place. Is it really the scarcity of enchanters or the lack of people wanting to take those tasks on that people bring them?

Versatile wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:12 am I have an epic enchanted who has never been approached to have work done even with having done enchanting for herself several times in the middle of a busy place. Is it really the scarcity of enchanters or the lack of people wanting to take those tasks on that people bring them?

I was just thinking the same thing. When reading through messageboards in major settlements, rarely if ever do I see a request for an expert enchanter.

Versatile wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:12 am I have an epic enchanted who has never been approached to have work done even with having done enchanting for herself several times in the middle of a busy place. Is it really the scarcity of enchanters or the lack of people wanting to take those tasks on that people bring them?

More the latter than the former, in my experience. People want their stuff good, fast, and cheap, which violates The Quality Triangle, but more importantly doesn't take into account the time that both the character and the player have to put into the work, which they might rather spend otherwise. If you're polite, communicate clearly, and shower them in gold, they're more likely to help.

I have very rarely had trouble finding enchanters, because I'm willing to make a commensurate sacrifice in order to have my super fancy gear.

Yup. It's about that time again.

This has been suggested, and suggested again.... and again... and again...

If my understanding is correct it's locked away behind the enchantment school (which traditionally isn't all that useful) because overall Arelith is a "low magic" server and it prevents high level magical items becoming common. This is the same reasoning it isn't under transmutation. The transmutation buffs are bread and butter for a wizard, and the epic spell focus bonuses were intended to give a little balance to the schools as well as a few RP cookies/fluff.

Furthermore having enchanted items as a specialized niche encourages roleplay and player diversification. You have to take the time to find a player-enchanter, particularly because you can't craft-mule with it as it takes significant effort to level up an epic enchanter at a cost of mechanical "optimization".

Finally it prevents one player "becoming an island" on the server. Arelith is a permanent world where the intention is for players to interact with each other. If game elements like this become so widely available that you can just do everything yourself it somewhat defeats the purpose.

Of course there is the old resort to "I live in a difficult time zone so it's hard to find an enchanter" - putting aside the IG mechanics of messages, faction resources and scheduling a brief meet up with other players at a mutually convenient time (i.e. reasonable effort) - maybe the Dev's could look at putting in NPC enchanters which have an appropriate cost and less chance of success than a PC enchanter?

Maybe the Dev's will look at it differently this time, but if it isn't broken then why fix it?

Also if anyone has the time it may be worth putting together a list of suggestions that have already been considered and rejected (with the reasoning behind the rejection of course!) so that people can check it before suggesting them yet again... or they can develop the idea further to suggest something new.

There is no reason for enchanted items being done at low price / huge quantities as it can produce top end items in the game.

It is just right whole buisness is restricted by number of enchanters. If you got money you would find willing enchanter soon or later.

It also allows people who invested into epic enchantment spell focus to feel unique and have main attribute of the school: to set prices for their work, and become possible very rich. Why should any caster be able to make end game content? Mundanes also don't get same benefits on armours or weapons. They must spend craft points into trade. So if you want to be able to make end game items then invest these three feats. They will make you maybe less powerfully mechanic wise but you can toy with best items in game and get very good income from it.


Leaving aside social aspects like factions guarding their enchanters like pricey gems.

I like this suggestion.

I feel that enchantment is becoming more and more irrelavent with the power creep of craftable wearables getting more and more powerful over time.

Diilicious wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:07 am I like this suggestion.

I feel that enchantment is becoming more and more irrelavent with the power creep of craftable wearables getting more and more powerful over time.

I think that's countered with the introduction of runes. No matter how good the craftables are you will still want an epic enchanter to apply a rune and extra enchantment safely.

There's plenty of builds that barely benefit from crafted gear as well.

well yes, right now. but thats what creep is all about.

Not really. If you look at the crafted gear, it was pretty clearly designed to give normally useless item types at least some reason to be worn, even if it is only one or two of that type. Either that, or they're racial-locked. It's more like shoring up the suboptimal categories. If it were powercreep, Moonblades would be scimitars.

EDIT: They're also very clearly carefully thought out. Good job Cortex, and whoever else is doing that.

JediMindTrix wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:34 pm Not really. If you look at the crafted gear, it was pretty clearly designed to give normally useless item types at least some reason to be worn, even if it is only one or two of that type. Either that, or they're racial-locked. It's more like shoring up the suboptimal categories. If it were powercreep, Moonblades would be scimitars.

EDIT: They're also very clearly carefully thought out. Good job Cortex, and whoever else is doing that.

well okay, good