Arelith

I don't want this to be a thread about whether or not the new level limitations on writs are a good thing. That's outside the scope of this feedback. However, at present the current system means that people often have to resort to tells in order to organize a party. This is generally immersion breaking and some sort of IC mechanic to sort out level discrepancies would probably be a good idea if the system is going to stay in its current state in my opinion.

Edit: A lot of people have been using this thread to discuss broader aspects of the writ system ranging from its significance to whether or not the old system was better. While these are worthwhile things to discuss, we've already had one general thread about the writ system and it was locked. For now, please try to focus your feedback primarily on whether or not you've seen an uptick in ooc messages/tells since the current system was implemented and whether or not you think some sort of ic mechanic would help fix this.

Agreed. Some of us don't want to be forced to metagame. Sometimes I want to play with no-tells on. IMO all content should assume no-tells IS on, as this is a RP server.

In my opinion there could be a ranking system similar to monster hunter or something (changed to dnd lore friendly obviously).

Writs 15-20 = S-Rank Monster Hunter.

Writs 10-15 = A-Rank Monster Hunter... etc.

I’m sure it wouldn’t be too hard to come up with ranks or titles based on your writ eligibility. It’s still gamey, but more palatable then getting a tell saying “Wht lvl r u?”

I am so wary about commenting in what is likely to be locked shortly.

I just wanted to raise the point that I think the reason the old Admin team didn't [And Mithreas feel free to correct me here] didn't include any kind of repetative MMO style quest system is exactly for immersion breaking reasons. Grinding gold and XP to kill the same Hobgoblin king every week has it's drawbacks.

I recently had a sad experience with the new Writ system, whereby I got a writ and popped to a public place and engaged in some cheery roleplay to gather and party, and did so. But 50% of the party over-levelled the writ. I had the choice of telling them to bugger off, and lose the party, or charge off for adventure and roleplay, and not do the writ.

I stuck with the latter, and we had a great time, but it was super, super hard to understand why, after having returned covered in glory and head in hand, adventure completed, the Quest Giver gave me a blank look. Now I'd have to go back to organising the exact same party, for the exact same adventure I just did, while trying to explain to my former companions why they totally couldn't come this time, and why I totally needed to go back even though we'd definately killed everything.

Drawing attention to the flaws of the game world, [Everything respawns after killing it, for example.] doesn't do the setting any good. And making me choose between roleplay and my party, and using the writ system for XP, isn't a healthy choice for this server. XP should be a reward for roleplay and a reward for including others, not something you get more off the more you exclude other people.

I'm in 100% agreement. A mechanic that forces OOC metagaming is not one that belongs on a roleplay server.

I don't understand the big deal over this writ change. The quest system hasn't really brought significant change to the grinding paradigm; before writs you still had to do repetitive killing of the same creatures and bosses in the same dungeons a hundred times to level up. If anything writs mean you have to do those same dungeons less now than you did before.

Rwby wrote: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:53 pm I just wanted to raise the point that I think the reason the old Admin team didn't [And Mithreas feel free to correct me here] didn't include any kind of repetative MMO style quest system is exactly for immersion breaking reasons.

I think you're over-estimating the age of the writ system, as well as attributing its conception, coding and design to the wrong era.

To answer the OP, I'll likely be reviewing data on the writ system and possibly adding some supplemental features when time permits.

strong yeet wrote: Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:34 pm I don't understand the big deal over this writ change. The quest system hasn't really brought significant change to the grinding paradigm; before writs you still had to do repetitive killing of the same creatures and bosses in the same dungeons a hundred times to level up. If anything writs mean you have to do those same dungeons less now than you did before.

+1

Additionally being unable to explain these 'quirks' that are required for a game, that are present in all the systems because it's not a perfect interpretation of RL, is just bad RP.

Why not just lie and say you got rewarded?
Or better yet, maybe there's a legitimate reason that you're not being rewarded. Maybe the writ givers want stronger adventurer combating stronger threats and not living their whole lives fighting goblins while the bigger evils go uncontested.

yellowcateyes wrote: Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:41 pm

Rwby wrote: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:53 pm I just wanted to raise the point that I think the reason the old Admin team didn't [And Mithreas feel free to correct me here] didn't include any kind of repetative MMO style quest system is exactly for immersion breaking reasons.

I think you're over-estimating the age of the writ system, as well as attributing its conception, coding and design to the wrong era.

To answer the OP, I'll likely be reviewing data on the writ system and possibly adding some supplemental features when time permits.

I'm not sure I am? The post you link to clearly indicates this was a change made during Irongron and Co's tenure, not during Mithreas and Artos Tenure. We [by which I mean the player base] often discussed adding some sort of new quest mechanic past the Speedy Messenger in Cordor, and Mith and co always chose not to do so, for I suspect, the reasons I've outlined regarding immersion damage.

strong yeet wrote: Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:34 pm I don't understand the big deal over this writ change. The quest system hasn't really brought significant change to the grinding paradigm; before writs you still had to do repetitive killing of the same creatures and bosses in the same dungeons a hundred times to level up. If anything writs mean you have to do those same dungeons less now than you did before.

Yeah. Since Writs went in, the number of times I've had to do the same same dungeon has dropped by a factor of ten. Usually I hit one writ once, maybe twice -- by then I've gained enough that I can take other writs.

Rwby wrote: Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:45 pm often discussed adding some sort of new quest mechanic past the Speedy Messenger in Cordor, and Mith and co always chose not to do so, for I suspect, the reasons I've outlined regarding immersion damage.

What immersion damage, exactly? Surely you can't think that giving more experience causes people to have to go back to the same dungeon more frequently than under the writ system.

Rwby wrote: Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:45 pm I'm not sure I am? The post you link to clearly indicates this was a change made during Irongron and Co's tenure, not during Mithreas and Artos Tenure. We [by which I mean the player base] often discussed adding some sort of new quest mechanic past the Speedy Messenger in Cordor, and Mith and co always chose not to do so, for I suspect, the reasons I've outlined regarding immersion damage.

Would it be more immersive if instead a newbie had to grind the same goblin king 10 times instead of coming back to the dungeon once or twice?

yellowcateyes wrote: Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:49 pm

Rwby wrote: Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:45 pm I'm not sure I am? The post you link to clearly indicates this was a change made during Irongron and Co's tenure, not during Mithreas and Artos Tenure. We [by which I mean the player base] often discussed adding some sort of new quest mechanic past the Speedy Messenger in Cordor, and Mith and co always chose not to do so, for I suspect, the reasons I've outlined regarding immersion damage.

Would it be more immersive if instead a newbie had to grind the same goblin king 10 times instead of coming back to the dungeon once or twice?

If your goal is to have people gain the same XP from grinding a dungeon 10 times under the old system to give 5 times that amount under the new system, why not do away with Writs entirely and times the XP by 5?

I've tried to be as clear as I can here. The issue with the Writ system that everyone is having is the fact that the restriction as to the Agent accepting you've accomplished the quest has not to do with your characters actions in the game world. He doesn't care if you slew the dragon. He only cares if you slew the dragon and bob the slightly more experienced fighter wasn't nearby at the time, even if Bob was just watching the fight. This is an out of character imposition on an In Character action, and damages immersion because it _Makes No Sense_ from the perspective of the character in the game world.

No-one in any of these threads has been complaining particularly about XP, how we get XP or dungeons. It has strictly been a case of objections to a change which some people [A vocal minority perhaps?] find damaging to roleplay, which ultimately is the goal of the server [we thought] and not XP/MMO style systems.

yellowcateyes wrote: Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:49 pm

Rwby wrote: Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:45 pm I'm not sure I am? The post you link to clearly indicates this was a change made during Irongron and Co's tenure, not during Mithreas and Artos Tenure. We [by which I mean the player base] often discussed adding some sort of new quest mechanic past the Speedy Messenger in Cordor, and Mith and co always chose not to do so, for I suspect, the reasons I've outlined regarding immersion damage.

Would it be more immersive if instead a newbie had to grind the same goblin king 10 times instead of coming back to the dungeon once or twice?

Yes.

On that topic, I've made suggestions in the past to not give bosses unique names to avoid more immersion breaking. I just pretend they replace the king as soon as they start tidying up when the adventurers leave.

Gobbolos #5199827 sends his regards.

It also makes no sense that the writ giver knows that you've done the quest at all and aren't just lying.
It also makes no sense monsters respawn on a 6 minute timer, infinitely.
Nothing makes sense unless you suspend disbelief.

The goal isn't "levelling is so slow", the goal is to promote RP. After having done three quests a day, you can chill and rake in some adventure xp. The system does that well.

There are plenty of ways to explain why you aren't rewarded because of you experience, just as there are plenty of ways to get around the IC representation of other game mechanics.

The most immersion breaking thing for me is the lack of monster metropoleis. Given that so many are killed, so regularly, the populations necessary to maintain these must surely mean there are some vast cities churning out murderous, yet suicidal beasts. We must only see the dissipated stragglers.

Sarcasm aside, appeals to realism on the monster killing side of things are pretty redundant, IMHO.

That said, I've found myself sending out tells "What level are you?" 10x more since this update than before. I don't like it. There are so many steps that have been taken to -prevent- people from being able to tell your level, that forcing this to occur in order to party does seem like a big step backwards. Its much more immersive to not really know how tough the people you are interacting with are, because it increases the risk of any conflict situation.

Ideally, the tell exchange shouldn't be so common. Overleveled character players should have the common sense to ask IC if the other people are doing a writ or at least to step back because they're overleveled to begin with.

Or pick dungeons more appropriate for their level range.

A lot of it is remembering that fantasy requires a suspension of disbelief. Else the only conclusion is the Writ Givers are gods, spawning monsters constantly in their amusing game of watching adventurers play their little puzzles.

Scratch this post.

Let's be clear about one thing. Writs are not the problem. They encourage grouping up, they make leveling less of a grind and more enjoyable.
The problem is the level restriction that has been put on the writs. That change discourages grouping up, breaks world immersion more than anything else, and encourages soloing (because it's too much of a hassle to find someone within your level range, especially in larger groups)

The people who are for this update have literally nothing to lose if it were reverted. For the rest of us, it's extremely immersion-breaking.
And while, sure, you could nitpick existing limitations that seem immersion breaking, it's rather a vague and poor argument and does not address the actual matter at hand - which is the writ level restriction.

Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of all of this is the seeming disregard that builders seem to have for the community's feedback on the matter. People have personally vented to me with how their feedback has been met with disregard. So displeased are they that several have pulled out their Patreon subscription. That's very disturbing - both to me as a fellow player, and as someone who enjoys this server and wants to see it flourish.

Many also don't speak up because they genuinely think their voice is going to fall on deaf ears. I'm starting to have doubts myself.

The constrast can be found in the plague thread. DMs take advice to heart and are grateful to be given it. Granted, sometimes our feedback comes out sounding harsh - deepest apologies for that - but at the end of the day, players feel valued when the DMs appreciate our input.

Whereas input and feedback that goes to devs, particularly regarding this topic, seems to be disregarded or ignored entirely.

MissEvelyn wrote: Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:08 pmPeople have personally vented to me with how their feedback has been met with disregard. So displeased are they that several have pulled out their Patreon subscription.

MissEvelyn wrote: Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:08 pm Let's be clear about one thing. Writs are not the problem. They encourage grouping up, they make leveling less of a grind and more enjoyable.
The problem is the level restriction that has been put on the writs. That change discourages grouping up, breaks world immersion more than anything else, and encourages soloing (because it's too much of a hassle to find someone within your level range, especially in larger groups)

If your party is an amalgam of mismatching levels you can skip writs, and level the "normal" way, right? It shouldn't matter what kind of Xp you get, it's about the Rp.

It could be perhaps you're not being ignored, you're just not agreed with. YCE has posted a lot on the matter. I'd say a significant portion of the server also disagrees with you.

I'm glad that the devs have their own minds, think about all the absolute rubbish, half baked ideas that would have made it in had they been controlled by patreon backers.

I've never read something so entitled and manipulative.

Okay. Woah there.

We're already on meme posting and direct personal attacks calling people entitled and manipulative? These are public posts that represent the whole of the Arelith community to new and prospective players. Is this really what you want people to see us as being, and how you wish to be treated and treat your fellow players?

We're all on the same side, here guys. [And girls.]

If your party is an amalgam of mismatching levels you can skip writs, and level the "normal" way, right? It shouldn't matter what kind of Xp you get, it's about the Rp.

And you don't see it problematic that solo grinders will never ever have to skip writs, never be at risk of getting the "Someone in your party is too high level" message, while those who team up and actually roleplay risk getting punished for it while they're trying to do writs?

How is this not clear as day that the change discourages grouping up? Leveling is a core mechanic of our game, if we can do it faster while RPing, most of us will. But now we cant - while, again, those who don't care at all for RP can solo grind them fast and reap the full benefits of the writs.

That's just on top of the problem that OOC metagaming is being encouraged through this change.

Edit: typos. I hate doing this on a phone. Also, no personal attacks intended in any of my posts. Just constructive (and sometimes passionate) discussion =)