Arelith

I've been wanting to make a suggestion to allow other base classes other than rangers to take Archer path: Similar to what Kensai path was to some of the base classes, modify the current archer path for Rangers to be available for other base classes such as Fighter, Barbarian, and Rogues (maybe even paladins).

But I figured I should start with feedback and some form of discussion before going into more details.

A quick look at the mechanics of Rangers:
1. Animal Companion, Animal Empathy (clutch summons)
2. Increased damage and other skill checks vs chosen race types (highly specialized DPS, in a sense)
3. Extra skill points compared to other martial classes
4. Full BAB progression but half-caster, similar to Paladins
5. Supposedly restricted to Nature deities for divine spellcasting, but not working atm (9/27/2018)

If we look at what the archer path do for rangers,
1. It increases their ranged damage output (2 dmg @ lvl4, +2 for every 8 lvls from that point on. +2 for low lvl ranger, +6 for lvl20+ rangers, or +8 for dedicated rangers)
2. Frees 2 to 3 pre-epic feats to utilize somewhere else (Riding, save feats, defensive feats, or hybrid melee/ranged choices)
3. Innate ability to create bundles. It is essentially a QoL improvement, though this specific advantage can be bridged with crafting for other classes that do not have access to easy bundles of ammo.

Note: dual wield bonuses are not mentioned due to this discussion being archer based

If we are to apply this to Fighters, Barbarians, and Rogues, what changes to the archer path should be considered for the three classes?

First we look at the base classes and some of their Arelith-specific changes:

Fighters
Fighter lvl1 start: Most likely the PC wants to preserve full BAB progression or utilize archer path. Lowest skill points from lvl1, however.
Dedicated Fighter levels (20+ of Fighter lvls): A lot of feats, extra passive AC, extra soft Dex, +1 or 2 AB that stacks with weapon AB to bypass any +5 DRs.

Suggested Archer Path for Fighters:
1. Increased Damage progression (better than that of Ranger's Archer Path, math and reasoning will be shown below)
2. No free pre-epic feats
3. Innate ability to create ammo


Barbarians
I'll be honest, I have yet to play any Barbarian characters here on Arelith. Perhaps those with experience can contribute their thoughts about Barbarians having the Archer Path here.

I am thinking similar to what the Ranger's path does:
1. Barb's archer path would provide the 3 ranged feats for free with 9 levels of barbarian levels
2. Increment of +2 damage over levels as well.
3. Apply all Melee bonuses to Ranged during rage instead, they no longer apply to melee.
4. Free ammo bundles/bags!


Rogues
Rogue lvl1 start: No full BAB progression, lots of skill points (8+int mod.)*4, that's a lot! Access to UMD and other plethora of skills
Dedicated Rogue levels (Let's say lvl24), +2 AB from rogue proficient weapons, another +2 AB attacking from stealth to compensate the loss of BAB from pre-epic levels.

The archer path for rogues should do the following, similar to Ranger's and Barbarian's:
1. Provide the 3 ranged feats for free
2. An increment of +2 damage starting @ lvl4 and for every 10 levels (+2 @ 4, +4 @ 14, +6 @ 24) since Rogues aren't a martial class
3. Restrict all the AB bonus to ranged weapons of the Rogue proficiency only
4. Free ammo bundles/bags
5. (Not sure if possible) Allow Sneak Attack range to be increased to 60m instead of 30m, higher rogue lvl required.


Math and boring stuffs:
A Ranger (archer) at 21 has the following average damage per shot: +6 (from path), +5 from FE, and +7 (2d6 from bane), total of 17
The ranger can also take 4 levels of fighter for another +6, which is now a total of 23.
+2 AB from bane, as well.

A fighter at lvl23 has: +6 (WS & EWS), +1 from Arelith Fighter bonus, DR piercing for Ashwood Crossbow & Elite Sling, total of 7
@ lvl25: +6 (WS & EWS), +2 from Arelith bonus, DR piercing for all +3 AB ranged weapons, total of 8

I suggest to allow Fighter's Archer Path to have a +2 ranged damage at an increment of 6 levels instead of 8 starting at lvl4:
4: +2 | 10: +4 | 16: +6 | 22: +8 | 28: +10

Therefore @ lvl 23, it'd be a total of extra 15 damage per shot, it will not be superior to that of a ranger's (17 base or 23 with fighter dip), at the same time allows bypassing most DR effects.

Keep in mind that fighters also do not have access to animal companions, divine spellcasting, or higher skill points base. Fighters will have higher AC and more feats, however.

It should be pointed out that the archer path was one item in a string of small buffs for the once very lackluster ranger class, to make the class more appealing, when compared to other classes.

Giving any of these small things (like this, or other suggestions, like making track features available to other classes, etc.) to other classes negates the intended effect.

The biggest draw to me is the free missiles. Crafting ammo is no fun.

I'd suggest in lieu of an actual path for other classes, make a 1 ECL "gift of the Archer" option at character creation. They don't get free point blank shot, etc, but they are able to get the free ammo bundles like a ranger.

Wordless Truth wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:25 am It should be pointed out that the archer path was one item in a string of small buffs for the once very lackluster ranger class, to make the class more appealing, when compared to other classes.

Giving any of these small things (like this, or other suggestions, like making track features available to other classes, etc.) to other classes negates the intended effect.

I mean the ranger is really GREAT for melee right now too.

I don't know about the barb (should be thrown weapons only imo) but I don't see why fighter and rogue couldn't have their own archer paths at least.

Regionals wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:35 pm The biggest draw to me is the free missiles. Crafting ammo is no fun.

I'd suggest in lieu of an actual path for other classes, make a 1 ECL "gift of the Archer" option at character creation. They don't get free point blank shot, etc, but they are able to get the free ammo bundles like a ranger.

Just this would be wonderful. I'd be super keen to make a rogue/fighter as an archer, but having to play around with arrow crafting on a low-strength character is a painful experience. Hell, I'd be happy to have it cap at steel arrows, but just being able to make them would be a nice bit of QoL.

I don't feel like it even merits an ECL adjustment, really. It has no impact on the mechanical power of the character, but a huge impact on the experience of playing them. And you're already forgoing other, potentially useful, gifts to take it.

not sure the jist of this thread...

Is the intent to create an equivalent specialty path for an archer that has comparable archery damage without the need for Ranger levels and something non-elven blood (i.e. no AA levels) can participate in?

Seems to me that a full fighter build with as many feats as you would get would create a character with as much damage potential as a dedicated Ranger/Archer... meanwhile having enough spare feats left over from Fighter Bonus Feats to create a potent tanky melee character at the same time.

Getting Dex to 26 and wearing Padded Armor +3 (or a +4 crafted variant) yields an AC equivalent to adamantine plate or better, with powerhouse Ranged AB and Damage, and then in a pinch shift into Full Improved Expertise feated AC, with room enough for Epic Weapon Specialization in both a Ranged Weapon -AND- a mellee weapon of your choice...

in addition, you'd have enough feats and room for Rogue Levels to lock in your Dex Bonus and keep yourself from Flat Footed... UMD... AND have enough feats to qualify for Weapon Master on your melee weapon...

Maybe in PnP, where there are additional Ranged Feats, like Shot on the Run, Far Shot, Precise Shot, Many Shot... etc... This makes a good case for Fighter-Archer. But in NWN... Sorry... I think it would break the game even more than it already is.

Commissar wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:19 am

Regionals wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:35 pm The biggest draw to me is the free missiles. Crafting ammo is no fun.

I'd suggest in lieu of an actual path for other classes, make a 1 ECL "gift of the Archer" option at character creation. They don't get free point blank shot, etc, but they are able to get the free ammo bundles like a ranger.

Just this would be wonderful. I'd be super keen to make a rogue/fighter as an archer, but having to play around with arrow crafting on a low-strength character is a painful experience. Hell, I'd be happy to have it cap at steel arrows, but just being able to make them would be a nice bit of QoL.

I play an archer that can't produce arrows on her own. I get by just fine. Both templates and arrows don't seem to be that hard to find, or expensive. The template update really made life easier, even if I didn't believe it at first.

The Kriv wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:41 am Maybe in PnP, where there are additional Ranged Feats, like Shot on the Run, Far Shot, Precise Shot, Many Shot... etc... This makes a good case for Fighter-Archer. But in NWN... Sorry... I think it would break the game even more than it already is.

There is no way a fighter with this change would ever outdamage a ranger-archer. +8 damage at 22 w/ Kenji's suggestion helps to equalize the two, but let's do a little math assuming longbow.

F22: 1d10 (5.5) + 4 Mighty + 8 Archer Path +6 Weapon Spec for 23.5

R22 : 1d10 (5.5) + 4 Might + 6 Archer Path +2d6 (7) Bane + 5 Favored Enemy for 27.5

Typical ranged rangers also take 6 levels of fighter for an additional +6. Ranger archers are superior in damage. Let's look at AC.

F22: 10 + 13 (8 Dex Penalty) Dex + 1 Padded Armor + 3 Enchantment Bonus for 22 AC. Leaves much to be desired.

R22: 10 + 13 dex + 4 Ranger Cloth Armor 27 AC. Not great, but certainly better.

Let's talk about feats.

Ranger gets all the ranged feats free of charge opening up selection of feats to pretty much whatever the ranger desires.

Fighter gets a plethora of feats but the majority of them will not assist in improving the overall damage or ac of the fighter in combat.

What about AB?

F23: 21 AB + 1 WF + 2 EWF + 1 EP + 1 Fighter Bonus for 26 AB

R23: 21 AB + 1 WF + 2 EWF + 2 BANE + 1 EP for 27 AB

There's no way mathematically that a ranger ranged would be worse off than a fighter ranged.

To add on top of Kriv and Ork's perspectives, let's not forget dedicated rangers have animal companions and AE (Clutch summons), divine spells (blade thirst = clutch regen), and 4 extra skill points per level. Vs fighter's higher AC, more feats, more stat spread for not having to invest into wisdom, and easier access to DR piercing.

Reason why I'm suggesting this is if any other class is to go archer without the path (save for AAs), they are looking at a high amount of disadvantages. Rangers are at a good spot, and even with this change I will still use it as a base class for most of my archers.

It is just the divine casting aspect of the ranger class that puts a dent on my wishes on making an actual "mundane archer" without having to forgo the class mechanics (therefore going against what rangers are for) or use other base classes for an archer build that is at a disadvantage.

Essentially players as of now are encouraged to interpret that all rangers don't have to be archers, but all archers should be rangers or elven arcane archers unless you want to be mechanically gimped.

Edit: fixed some typos and added some points for clarity

Ork wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:46 pm

The Kriv wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:41 am Maybe in PnP, where there are additional Ranged Feats, like Shot on the Run, Far Shot, Precise Shot, Many Shot... etc... This makes a good case for Fighter-Archer. But in NWN... Sorry... I think it would break the game even more than it already is.

There is no way a fighter with this change would ever outdamage a ranger-archer. +8 damage at 22 w/ Kenji's suggestion helps to equalize the two, but let's do a little math assuming longbow.

F22: 1d10 (5.5) + 4 Mighty + 8 Archer Path +6 Weapon Spec for 23.5

R22 : 1d10 (5.5) + 4 Might + 6 Archer Path +2d6 (7) Bane + 5 Favored Enemy for 27.5

Typical ranged rangers also take 6 levels of fighter for an additional +6. Ranger archers are superior in damage. Let's look at AC.

F22: 10 + 13 (8 Dex Penalty) Dex + 1 Padded Armor + 3 Enchantment Bonus for 22 AC. Leaves much to be desired.

R22: 10 + 13 dex + 4 Ranger Cloth Armor 27 AC. Not great, but certainly better.

Let's talk about feats.

Ranger gets all the ranged feats free of charge opening up selection of feats to pretty much whatever the ranger desires.

Fighter gets a plethora of feats but the majority of them will not assist in improving the overall damage or ac of the fighter in combat.

What about AB?

F23: 21 AB + 1 WF + 2 EWF + 1 EP + 1 Fighter Bonus for 26 AB

R23: 21 AB + 1 WF + 2 EWF + 2 BANE + 1 EP for 27 AB

There's no way mathematically that a ranger ranged would be worse off than a fighter ranged.

I think you missed the point.

Ranger 23, Bane, and FE Bonus only works on those creatures that are in your FE/SE list. And as such, this is not across the board damage. It is specialized damage.

ALSO, my point was that -IN ADDITION TO- the ranged capabilities the Fighter-Archer path as laid out here describes, the Fighter-Archer -also- has enough feats to beef up their melee damage as well to a degree that a Ranger-Archer can never touch.

A Ranger -needs- to take minimum 4 levels of Fighter just to get EWS on their bow. And if they want to do the same on a melee weapon, they need to take 2 more levels meaning... SIX levels of Fighter to get BOTH melee and ranged damage bonus from EWS. Meaning the minimum a Ranger could ever take level wise is 24.

Then, if that Ranger who has both EWS for RANGED and MELEE wants to take any class to get UMD, they need a minimum of 3 additional levels, for skill dump, lowering the possible maximum Ranger Level to 21... creating a Ranger(21)Fighter(6)Rogue(3)


My point wasn't that the Fighter-ARcher build would school the Ranger in damage in ranged. My point is that the Fighter-Archer would be good enough to be a pretty darn good Archer.. and then easily switch to a pretty freeking amazing melee as well... in part BECASUE the Fighter-Archer could be built to include 5-levels of Weaponmaster because of all the extra feats taken in Fighter.


Create a Fighter-Archer? with 22 dedicated Fighter Levels, that's 17 feats. More than enough to pick up all the Ranged Feats -and- qualify for 5 levels of Weapon Master and still have room enough to get 3 levels Rogue for UMD and skill dumps.

With this type of build, thats enough feats to pick up improved crit in both melee and Ranged, EWS in both melee and ranged... and with Weapon Master your x2 crits turn into x3 (or x3 turn into x4) on that melee.

Would you be the best Melee? No. Would you beat the hell out of a Ranger-Archer at Melee? hell yeah.

Would you be able to do pretty dang good ranged damage and THEN switch to melee and do equally pretty dang good melee damage? Yes.

Can an Archer-Ranger do this? No. I've tried. Ranger-Archer can't be master of both. Fighter-Archer could.

Master of both? We're talking about a DEX based fighter. They get next to nil benefit from taking WM due to the low strength damage. I'm not convinced. They'd be just as effective as a ranger in melee.

I've been looking at possible spread for both WM and Brycer adaptation of Fighter-Archer builds, I can see why it's possible they'd break the game.

Weapon Master
WM still requires a ton of feats to be eligible, but it is still possible to spare 5 feats (Weap. Focus, Weap. Spec., PB Shot, Rapid Shot/Reload, Imp. Crit.) to be a hybrid build all the while sacrificing some of the save feats and utility feats. At epic levels, it is also possible to not take great dex and take extra EWF and EWS to be an effective hybrid build.

Fighter levels will have to be 23 in order to have the DR-piercing effect for Crossbow or Slings, WM usually wants 7 levels, but 3 can do, too, if one wants to push it. I imagine the spread will be 23Ftr/7WM or 20Ftr/7WM/3Rogue if Fighter-Archer were to become a thing. The 20/7/3 variant will not be able to pierce any DR (unless Drow with Wardbreaker)

Saves for the Fighter-Archer/WM will still be just as bad, but they can possibly snipe down any mages who attempts to close in on them or tries to run away. Which distance-closing has always been the thing melee WM has to deal with.

Gear-wise, it'll be slightly trickier to gear such a WM, str/dex/con/saves as usual, str can be fulfilled with skleen and buffs, but getting it to 22 can still be a hassle.

Brycer (Fighter 23 / Paladin 4 / Rogue 3)
The Brycer build adapted to Fighter-Archer is just as likely to break the game without some kind of limitations.

This one gets all the sweet deals from DR piercing to high burst from Divine Might and great AC since it's a dex build with divine shield.

Gears for such a Brycer will be tricky. Juggling in between 4 stats, from getting Str 13 to 22, max out dex, con, and cha, it'll take a dedicated player to obtain such gear.

I think it's the Brycer adaptation with dex based fighter-archer that might be breaking the game. On paper, it looks good as is even without the archer path. Great saves, AC, dmg, now with the option to go hybrid. I'm surprised no one has done a 23/4/3 ranged brycer with sling/shield already.

Afterthought
Weapon Finesse is still required to be taken early levels for such hybrid builds to be effective, or they'll have to wait til lvl26 (rogue lvl2) to start being able to utilize their melee portion to the fullest extent.

Either way, the number of feats available to take expertise and improved expertise on top of all the AC buffs can still make them an effective tank throughout all levels all the while still being almost just as good an archer. AB will not be as competitive, of course.

We still have to note that these builds still have limited skill points and no access to wands until epic levels.

The rangers losing their dual-wield feats and AC as a result of going archer path can be perhaps applied to the suggested Fighter-Archer somehow.

The AC portion is hard to tell, but we can do the math for that, too:
Ranger (21/6/3): 35 = 10 (base) + 14 (dex) + 4 (runic ranger shirt) + 6 (tumble) + 1 (fighter)
Fighter (26/4, sling/shield): 41 = 10 (base) + 14 (dex) + 3 (enchanted silk) + 6 (tumble) + 4 (fighter w/o shield bonus) + 6 (shield)
Brycer (23/4/3, sling/shield): 49 = 10 (base) + 13 (dex) + 3 (enchanted silk) + 6 (tumble) + 2 (fighter w/o shield bonus) + 6 (shield) + 9 (divine shield)
Large Shield is used since it has only -2 penalty with possible addy AC

The exact extent of how these builds will affect the current meta should fighters with archer path is introduced is still hard to say and speculations at best.

I imagine the following can be done if Fighter-Archer is to become a thing:
-Remove Shield AC bonus
-The +AB/Dmg at high lvl fighter only applies to ranged weaponry

Here's a Brycer Hin Sling/Short Sword/Shield hybrid that I came up with using the current classes, no path, no nothing, just plain old feat allocation:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

AB is at 47 w/ Sling, 46 w/ Sword, slightly low but doable AB.
It's possible to not take blinding speed and take Epic Prowess instead for a boost in AB.

It can probably be improved with the more careful stat spread.

Bear in mind you can't apply WM to ranged weapons.

I'm well aware of WM needing 7 lvls to get that bonus and WMs can't have weapons of choice on ranged. Not sure why I thought the 3 level WM dip would be a good idea. The possibilities should have been 23Ftr/7WM vs 20Ftr/7WM/3Rogue instead.

Even if WM's bonuses don't apply to ranged, the capability of being a more effective hybrid build here is what's concerning Kriv I believe. The AB for the hybrid will be subpar (47 vs 54 ranged or 46 vs 51 melee) when compared to specialized peers in either ranged or Melee, so will its AC, and most of all its saves.

Honestly, I don't know what to make of these numbers. I have a feeling that hybrids won't be much of a concern, and adjustments can always be made if Fighter-archers are overperforming than intended when combined with other classes.

What is more to be gained here is that ranged gameplay will be encouraged even further, allowing more RP possibilities without being limited by the mechanics. Balancing can always be done when more data and statistics are available.