Arelith

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:03 am**

Feel free to slap me and tell me off if this is inappropriate use of this forum. I just wanted to add my support for a suggestion I saw that I really like, and my own opinion on it.

As a pure caster and not having discipline, timestop is an invaluable tool in getting additional time before anyone/anything with KD gets to you. The spell is a must for any hostile endgame pvp encounter.

While I wouldn't want to see a rare component aspect added that limits casters, or is just yet another annoyance.. I do very much like the idea of making the scrolls themselves expensive to create/buy, so that more thought goes into using them.

For an end-game character it's pretty easy to just acquire a whole stack of these, and that leads to them being used by anyone with a little UMD, constantly. It was similar with the raise dead scrolls and I feel like that change really made things better and could do the same for timestop.

I do believe a caster should have an easier time since it's a spell they actually know and took the spellslot to prepare, rather than just a scroll they bought 100 of. I wouldn't want to see it become another nerf to casters, but I do want to see it used less often.

tl;dr
I like the idea of increasing their cost to scribe. I think that would be sufficient change.

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:19 am**

I second this, I mean time stop already has a pain in the butt second component to get (Dragon's blood) not to mention normal spell componates, a bit of a coin increase maybe a better idea, like Raise dead scrolls.

(Though I am also of the opinion that Raise dead scrolls scribbing price needs dropped slightly, not a lot, just slightly to feel more in a good middle area, cause they cost like.. 20,000? 30,000? to make, which seems kinda over kill.. pun intended.)

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:39 am**

The whole point of the suggestion was that I wanted to see less timestop usage. Not nerf every class but wizard and sorceror.

Classes that are, by the way, already the best in DnD. I don't want to see it from wizards just as much as I don't want to see it from a scroll.

The Spellsword, The Generalist Wizard, and Sorceror/Paladin are already thee of the easily strongest archetypes in the game

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:03 am**

I say no one has business casting timestop except for high level mages.

It's not something a rookie mage or person with a bit of dabbling as an artificer should be able to easily manipulate.

Add a spell caster level requirements to use timestop scrolls or heavy arcane spell failure chance to those who are not heavily invested into an arcane caster class.

Maybe make each spellcaster level arcane spell failure chance for using the scrolls.

Make them less common via difficulty to craft without penalizing those with the ability to prepare it via their class.

Sorcerer or wizard dipping should not be enough to easily cast such a complicated spell with such impressive thematic implications.

I'm not a mage player, but it's definitely eyeroll worthy levels of cheesy for nonmages to have ready access to timestop.

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:05 am**

You know its bad when ur epic lvl wizard uses scrolls of timestop because it saves the spell slots on ninth circle.

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:53 am**

Also, -20 ab for the duration of the spell for the caster is worth considering.

I played on a rp heavy server with wonderful war related PvP that was a constant group fighting battlefield. Same kind of factions as Arelith but each city and the underdark had their own armies and the neutral city not only had an army but were often mercenaries.

Groups of 5-15 were fighting it out, sometimes larger, at all hours. There were dm led events for the different groups that were scaled to the size of the groups pretty much daily.

This is one of the changes they implemented. It stopped the mage wm builds from being so prominent, as scythe wielders were hitting for over 300 damage. Sometimes closer to 400 (it became a lvl 40 server after a few years). After that, class balance was nearly perfect again.

Like Arelith there was a large community of those interested in build mechanics/PvP viability endgame and basically timestop just became melee cheese. So much that no one was upset when they nerfed it for meleers.

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:21 pm**

Is it possible to make a spell cost several slots?
Aka a wizard needs 2-3 timestop prepared to cast
Once (depleting all) and similarly cost ready spell slots to cast?

Same for sorceress naturally

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:50 pm**

White_935 wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:21 pm Is it possible to make a spell cost several slots?
Aka a wizard needs 2-3 timestop prepared to cast
Once (depleting all) and similarly cost ready spell slots to cast?

Same for sorceress naturally

A 9th level spell slot is already extremely valuable to a caster, and they get so few of them. Why punish the casters further?

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:58 pm**

You already cannot hurt physically a person during time stop unless below 50% of health.

So no, WM will not time stop you and dish on you 300+ dmg in time stop. Unless you are already badly injured.

Dragon blood is not hard to get, i usually end up with lots of it (unintended) - just as side note.

Making timestop expansive will not help you a lot. People who go for pvp and are geared up will always be enough wealthy to supply themselves and those who are not geared up today to face those folks, won't be able to afford it at all.

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:07 pm**

Dagonlives wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:39 am The whole point of the suggestion was that I wanted to see less timestop usage. Not nerf every class but wizard and sorceror.

Classes that are, by the way, already the best in DnD. I don't want to see it from wizards just as much as I don't want to see it from a scroll.

The Spellsword, The Generalist Wizard, and Sorceror/Paladin are already thee of the easily strongest archetypes in the game

I feel it's important to make a distinction between the three archetypes you listed and the pure wizard/sorc which will also (and heavily) be affected by such a change. They are no where near the strongest and have terrible vulnerabilities, timestop being one of the few spells that can be used as a defense. I would ask that pure casters be exempt from the suggestion, then. Apart from the cost increase for scrolls, I think that's good all-round.

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:02 pm**

It can be quite bothersome when someone time stops and just start buffing themselves followed by the next person and next person, or when 4 people each use a time stop one after another to gang up on one guy.

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:10 pm**

Cerk Evermoore wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:02 pm It can be quite bothersome when someone time stops and just start buffing themselves followed by the next person and next person, or when 4 people each use a time stop one after another to gang up on one guy.

Seven years ago, i tried really silly thing. To epic surface party, who clearly outmatched us in numbers and levels, my drow issues a challenge for a duel. Some monk just said okay, timestopped, and killed my drow without further word.

never giving challenges again since

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:19 pm**

What if it weakened the caster somehow, as a result of all the fast movement?

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:24 pm**

I would propose a secondary, UNIVERSAL cooldown on top of the 4 minute personal cooldown already in place. Say, 60 seconds? So for one minute after timestop ends, no-one in the area can use timestop again. This addresses the issue of chained timestops (which I have seen, and which I agree, make epic PvP rather dull and frustrating) without specifically nerfing either mundane or caster classes.

I also just noticed this on NWN wiki:

As of a recent patch by Beamdog. All enemies are completely immune to damage magical or physical in nature. They are also granted temporary immunity (essentially immortality) to everything. Spell remains the same otherwise.

Is this in effect on Arelith?

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:34 pm**

mourisson1 wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:05 am You know its bad when ur epic lvl wizard uses scrolls of timestop because it saves the spell slots on ninth circle.

This is actually pretty common even in PnP and along with wand and potion usage is a hallmark of a wizard that knows what it's doing.

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:18 pm**

Baron Saturday wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:24 pm I would propose a secondary, UNIVERSAL cooldown on top of the 4 minute personal cooldown already in place. Say, 60 seconds? So for one minute after timestop ends, no-one in the area can use timestop again. This addresses the issue of chained timestops (which I have seen, and which I agree, make epic PvP rather dull and frustrating) without specifically nerfing either mundane or caster classes.

I also just noticed this on NWN wiki:
As of a recent patch by Beamdog. All enemies are completely immune to damage magical or physical in nature. They are also granted temporary immunity (essentially immortality) to everything. Spell remains the same otherwise.
Is this in effect on Arelith?

It removes the best counter to time stop, which is reading a second time stop scroll before they finish reading their own perrsonal scroll to overwrite it, leaving both characters time stopped. It would also raise the issue of pvp fights where it is a "Race to use timestop first."

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:42 pm**

]Competent PvP involves tactical use of timestop.

Using it effectively by chaining only really happens if you outnumber your opponents (and even then it's not really a good use of resources). Otherwise it's a pointless economy waste.

Timestop is also a cornerstone of umd builds and mages. As well as the overall balance of the server.

I disagree with the premise there should be less of it because it's boring to wait 9 seconds. Especially considering the vast majority of the playerbase are not mechanically competent when it comes to PvP and that short period of time is often simply used for them to calm down a bit from the initial panic.

Any change has ramifications way beyond the boredom of waiting 36 seconds for a group to get it's act together and kill you. (They could have done it in less, but I don't think 30 seconds of wasting time is enough to fall under the be nice rule)

To coin a phrase, if it's not broken, don't fix it.

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:03 pm**

TimeAdept wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:34 pm
mourisson1 wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:05 am You know its bad when ur epic lvl wizard uses scrolls of timestop because it saves the spell slots on ninth circle.
This is actually pretty common even in PnP and along with wand and potion usage is a hallmark of a wizard that knows what it's doing.

It's also handy if you're worried about being interrupted. If a guy is willing to spend 6k gold, a unit of dragon's blood, and a superfluous 3 seconds to avoid interruptions or counterpselling, that's fine.

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:54 pm**

Sockss wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:42 pm ]Competent PvP involves tactical use of timestop.

Using it effectively by chaining only really happens if you outnumber your opponents (and even then it's not really a good use of resources). Otherwise it's a pointless economy waste.

Timestop is also a cornerstone of umd builds and mages. As well as the overall balance of the server.

I disagree with the premise there should be less of it because it's boring to wait 9 seconds. Especially considering the vast majority of the playerbase are not mechanically competent when it comes to PvP and that short period of time is often simply used for them to calm down a bit from the initial panic.

Any change has ramifications way beyond the boredom of waiting 36 seconds for a group to get it's act together and kill you. (They could have done it in less, but I don't think 30 seconds of wasting time is enough to fall under the be nice rule)

To coin a phrase, if it's not broken, don't fix it.

I'm with you and flower on this one, while I'd be okay with a slight boost in scribbing it, over all, what I am seeing is people trying to suggest things that would be game breaking to casting classes.

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:30 pm**

Just up the UMD needed for scrolls.
Makes little sense that a level 1 scroll and a level 9 scroll need the same amount of UMD any way.

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:33 pm**

Nobs wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:30 pm Just up the UMD needed for scrolls.
Makes little sense that a level 1 scroll and a level 9 scroll need the same amount of UMD any way.

..Know what, yeah that actually sounds way more reasonable. I have a UMD of 16 (technically 17) for scrolls, and wands, and I'm not actually sure WHICH scroll requires the 16, i just know it's not time stop.

(Quick note: I'm level 30, and took 4 bard levels, those started at level 19, least for me, and my last one was at 30, idk what they would be for anyone else, but i imagine upping the UMD to 16 for time stop would stop almost every low-levels from being able to use it)

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:54 pm**

Quick note: I am still traveling and inactive, so do not take anything in this post as an official position or decision on this matter. These are just some personal drive-by observations.

1) Timestop on Arelith has already been nerfed to disfavor UMD users and favor native casters.

2) Adding significantly to UMD requirements of important consumables only makes the Human race that much more attractive, given the value of skill points in Arelith. 'Optimized' characters with a late epic skill dump will easily adapt with a level 29 or 30 relevel. Less optimized characters will be hit harder.

3) Adding significant component and material costs to make a spell 'rarer' will only benefit players with the time, resources, and awareness to prepare for PvP. That is to say, it will only widen the gap between mechanically savvy players with lots of grind time, and the more casual playerbase that might not be interested in optimal gearing/preparation.

It would be a needless addition to inventory clutter, and PvP enthusiasts will still use Timestop when advantageous anyways.

4) Giving Timestop a 'universal' or area-wide cooldown would incentivize being the first to use it in a combat, giving people more reason to 'jump the gun' and be the initiators of PvP, rather than roleplay out tense situations.

I'm not convinced the spell needs a nerf at this time. Timestop can be powerful when used wisely (as suits a 9th level spell). But from personal observation, time stop castings are squandered or superfluous far more often than they are decisive.

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:07 pm**

yellowcateyes wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:54 pm Quick note: I am still traveling and inactive, so do not take anything in this post as an official position or decision on this matter. These are just some personal drive-by observations.

1) Timestop on Arelith has already been nerfed to disfavor UMD users and favor native casters.

2) Adding significantly to UMD requirements of important consumables only makes the Human race that much more attractive, given the value of skill points in Arelith. 'Optimized' characters with a late epic skill dump will easily adapt with a level 29 or 30 relevel. Less optimized characters will be hit harder.

3) Adding significant component and material costs to make a spell 'rarer' will only benefit players with the time, resources, and awareness to prepare for PvP. That is to say, it will only widen the gap between mechanically savvy players with lots of grind time, and the more casual playerbase that might not be interested in optimal gearing/preparation.

It would be a needless addition to inventory clutter, and PvP enthusiasts will still use Timestop when advantageous anyways.

4) Giving Timestop a 'universal' or area-wide cooldown would incentivize being the first to use it in a combat, giving people more reason to 'jump the gun' and be the initiators of PvP, rather than roleplay out tense situations.

I'm not convinced the spell needs a nerf at this time. Timestop can be powerful when used wisely (as suits a 9th level spell). But from personal observation, time stop castings are squandered or superfluous far more often than they are decisive.

Which are all valid points, this a Roleplay server, not a PVP server.... I'd not realized it actually been nerved for UMD users already. (Then again I've still currently only played a wizard in full, so, i'd not notice those things) ...

I can also agree to your last statement, and observation, because I am one those people. <8'D Since I do not know how to PVP still, nor have I ever won such.

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:29 pm**

Atlantahammy wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:07 pmWhich are all valid points, this a Roleplay server, not a PVP server....

True and lovely as this might be, I have found out by experience that many who excessively favor PvP do not care one bit about this statement and they will continue to adapt and optimize for PvP, should this change pull through, and it would only make them even more advantageous over the rest of us casuals.

Posted: **Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:37 pm**

MissEvelyn wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:29 pm
Atlantahammy wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:07 pmWhich are all valid points, this a Roleplay server, not a PVP server....
True and lovely as this might be, I have found out by experience that many who excessively favor PvP do not care one bit about this statement and they will continue to adapt and optimize for PvP, should this change pull through, and it would only make them even more advantageous over the rest of us casuals.

Nah your completely right, I (and a lot of others) are rather tired of it as well, given how aggressive it's gotten of late, I really don't like the idea of tweaking somethings to make it more PVP friendly. (Like a recent suggestion to make it take LONGER for someone to lens where people could PVP someone, taking a person's choice away to engage in pvp, and just get grossly curb-stomped by their attackers. Not to mention how highly it would get abused.)

Arelith

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