Arelith

Regarding this: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=21952

Removing the RDI portal is a terrible idea. Let me explain why...

"Surface" dungeons that contain grandiose ore nodes and/or rune chests:
- IRONGRON EDIT FOIG INFO!

"Underdark" dungeons that contain grandiose ore nodes and/or rune chests:
- IRONGRON EDIT FOIG INFO!

Stuff arguably "belonging" to neither:
- IRONGRON EDIT FOIG INFO!



It is difficult to get boats. There are only two available for most surface characters (the Penny Rose and the one in Cordor). This makes Blackfin irritating to get to. And now RDI too.

IRONGRON EDIT FOIG INFO!

Please please do not remove the RDI portal. You get enough complaining about "surfacers levelling in UD lol" without cutting people off from one of the few non-UD endgame dungeons.

Giving one set of characters easier access to endgame gear and content than others, simply by virtue of their alignment tendencies, starting location and race, is not good design.

I don't really get what this would accomplish aside from consolidating even more power with nefarious archetypes, as pirates have the most reliable ship access.

It is not difficult to get boats. You could ask pirates if you're not good aligned, or take the many boats available for rent. I approve of this idea! It's a great idea and will get more boats about.
Also, I think more boats need to be added.

Tomato wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:45 pm It is not difficult to get boats. You could ask pirates if you're not good aligned, or take the many boats available for rent. I approve of this idea! It's a great idea and will get more boats about.
Also, I think more boats need to be added.

Fine. Lets reduce the total number of UD endgame dungeons to four, then gate half of them behind luckily getting temporary ownership a specific pair of properties by rushing the signs after a reset, or needing to be associated with specific factions.

Make the remaining two either terrible, or boring with a poor likelihood of any useful gain.

That'll be super popular.

Tomato wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:45 pm It is not difficult to get boats. You could ask pirates if you're not good aligned, or take the many boats available for rent. I approve of this idea! It's a great idea and will get more boats about.
Also, I think more boats need to be added.

This is factually wrong. There's only two boats available for rent, and 90% of the time both are gone - because someone is actually using it, or someone died on a boating trip, or just forgot to release it. Not every neutral or evil character is going to realistically going to be able to ask for a ride on the pirate boat (What if you're a LE Banite who hates theives and pirates, for example?), and not every good aligned character is just going to magically get access to one of the faction boats.

Ignoring entirely the massive disparity of numbers for epic dungeons between surface and underdark (And, really, why are there twice the number of epic dungeons in the Underdark, and why are they near universally more rewarding? This has been a huge problem for multiple years now), you'd need to double or triple the number of ships on the surface to make this idea tenable.

This is an absolutely terrible idea.

Aodh Lazuli wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:34 pm IRONGRON EDIT FOIG INFO!

I would agree that the Surface needs more epic dungeons, but then again . . . Everything in the Lowerdark is super easy to get to by surfacers too who know how. So . . Illithids, Maurs, Beholders, Mount Baphomet all can be argued to belong to both sides.
The same can be said of Minauros, which has a portal that's not that hard to get to from the surface.

I would say that the only ones that are truly difficult to get to from the surface are the Gaundadaur Temple, Pandemonium, and Minogons. And only because those areas are high traffic areas.

Rooshi49 wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:19 pm I would agree that the Surface needs more epic dungeons, but then again . . . Everything in the Lowerdark is super easy to get to by surfacers too who know how.

Highlighted the important bit here. Knowledge is not quite the issue, however.

There are a few paths to the lowerdark from the surface.

All of them require having certain portals, having one of a couple of specific keys (and going to RDI first for one of those paths, lol), or running through highly populated and trafficked parts of the UD in order to obtain those specific portals to make it so future access is easy.

Rooshi49 wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:19 pm

Aodh Lazuli wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:34 pm
IRONGRON EDIT FOIG INFO!

I would agree that the Surface needs more epic dungeons, but then again . . . Everything in the Lowerdark is super easy to get to by surfacers too who know how. So . . Illithids, Maurs, Beholders, Mount Baphomet all can be argued to belong to both sides.
The same can be said of Minauros, which has a portal that's not that hard to get to from the surface.

I would say that the only ones that are truly difficult to get to from the surface are the Gaundadaur Temple, Pandemonium, and Minogons. And only because those areas are high traffic areas.

By the same logic, though, RDI, Mourne, Blackfin and Aurilites are all easy to get to for Underdarkers with a little bit of prep (Getting portals, etc) and know-how. Aurilites and Mourne are the only ones that are even the slightest bit risky.

Please don't list treasure and ore locations.

I'll take this feedback on board, and possibly reconsider. I'm pretty unhappy with the RDI as it is anyway, and having reviewed a lot of tilesets for possible addition to Arelith have decided to replace it pretty soon, with something that is far larger, and really feels like a 'isle of dragons'

Irgngron wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:54 pm Please don't list treasure and ore locations.

I'll take this feedback on board, and possibly reconsider. I'm pretty unhappy with the RDI as it is anyway, and having reviewed a lot of tilesets for possible addition to Arelith have decided to replace it pretty soon, with something that is far larger, and really feels like a 'isle of dragons'

Thanks for the reply, Irongron. I quite understand why you removed parts of my post, that's reasonable, but the information you removed does illustrate (rather clearly, and it was posted for this specific reason) a fairly serious problem; The severe imbalance in the location of endgame content and the endgame treasure which is guarded by the FOIG-ing of the information I presented.

It is right, that it is gated behind finding out in game, but wrong that such content be gated (or unequal access offered) behind factional allegiance or a character's location/alignment.

Is this a problem that you acknowledge? It's a somewhat larger issue than just RDI.

Also, that tileset looks pretty cool.

Aodh Lazuli wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:05 pm Thanks for the reply, Irongron. I quite understand why you removed parts of my post, that's reasonable, but the information you removed does illustrate (rather clearly, and it was posted for this specific reason) a fairly serious problem; The severe imbalance in the location of endgame content and the endgame treasure which is guarded by the FOIG-ing of the information I presented.

It is right, that it is gated behind finding out in game, but wrong that such content be gated (or unequal access offered) behind factional allegiance or a character's location/alignment.

Is this a problem that you acknowledge? It's a somewhat larger issue than just RDI.

Also, that tileset looks pretty cool.

Just wanna reiterate everything said here, including that bit about the tilesets. They look metal as hell.


Irrespective of what happens with RDI, there's currently a very wide gulf between surface dungeons and underdark dungeons, and this has been a very long term problem - people have been complaining about this on the forums for 3ish years that I can recall.

Underdark dungeons give more experience than their surface counterparts, are more loopable(Your milage may vary if you consider this a plus), have more opportunities for valuable ore/end game loot, and have 2-3x as much variety to choose from at epic level.

It is done in that matter in all aspects not only dungeons!

I will mention the writ loop!

Beneath heights, grimlocks, grimlock temple.

Jump to one portal, make writ, proceed to next two locations, second writ completed, push down, third writ completed.

Once you are out of range of first one, just add drider area. The progression is same but you will return trough petrified forest into outpost.

You can handle all writs in hour or hour and half. All areas give you high ammount of xps (30+ often), loot, and you get huge ammount of xps from writs.

On surface you must usually walk distance, and travel many areas, not pick up writ jump into portal next to the guy giving writs and have all 3 writs in reach of single portal destination.


Same goes for dungeons, perhaps a bit harder to reach from surfce but giving more of exps, loot and alike. Often does not require party to be that well geared up.

I always thought RDI was overfarmed and too easy. Just hop through a portal and two transitions and have your EDK solo the boss. A 10 minute trip for some almost free adamantite.

Considering the price of adamantite is steadily decreasing, perhaps attacking the easiest supply would be a good first step.

Still places like the Shade Asylum and Baator and the Abyss and the dark spires.

This mostly harms people who desire the /optimal/ dungeon.

RDI is over farmed but that's because with the builds out there the boss is easy to kill. Keep the portal since boats are in too short supply. But RDI is an easy place for many to farm alone. It should be tougher but not so tough no one wants to go anymore.

RDI's boss can easily end parties if not prepared for or handled properly.

Please don't remove the portal. The UD is already so far ahead of the surface in almost every mechanical way it's crazy. Don't nerf the surface.

I only argued the portal shouldnt exist because the dungeon was already effective enough, as evidenced by the fact it is the highest traffic end game dungeon in the game, compared to the much less popular longer dungeons.

The time spent versus reward ratio is severely messed up when you can port onto an island and get the reward at the end in 15 minutes. Why even bother running Abyss or Manor of Morne? It is not like people are rushing to panadmonium to farm adamantite off the endless mountain.

You dont need a bunch of sources of adamantite, you just need to farm this one easy dungeon repeatedly. This shouldnt even be a surface versus UD debate. This should be people asking, how rare should adamantite be?

I would be just as happy making the dungeon longer, i just think in its current state it is wayyy too casual and fast. Either it needs a 15 minute boat ride tacked on or 15 minutes worth of trash monsters added. In its current state the dungeon seems broken however.

Cerk Evermoore wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:48 pm I only argued the portal shouldnt exist because the dungeon was already effective enough, as evidenced by the fact it is the highest traffic end game dungeon in the game, compared to the much less popular longer dungeons.

The time spent versus reward ratio is severely messed up when you can port onto an island and get the reward at the end in 15 minutes. Why even bother running Abyss or Manor of Morne? It is not like people are rushing to panadmonium to farm adamantite off the endless mountain.

You dont need a bunch of sources of adamantite, you just need to farm this one easy dungeon repeatedly. This shouldnt even be a surface versus UD debate. This should be people asking, how rare should adamantite be?

I would be just as happy making the dungeon longer, i just think in its current state it is wayyy too casual and fast. Either it needs a 15 minute boat ride tacked on or 15 minutes worth of trash monsters added. In its current state the dungeon seems broken however.

I would extend it for sure. All these dungeons should be similar to the titans. Long time to walk, areas where rest is prohibited mixed with free-rest. Just when you reach end after two hours of fighting there should not be total loot only 50 000 coins and one empty chest

I am all for nerfing adamantine spawns across the board. >:)

dominantdrowess wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:13 pm I am all for nerfing adamantine spawns across the board. >:)

But seriously, as someone who mains UD, please do not give roving bands of surface epics even more reason to spend an undue amount of time underground and encourage further competition for already crowded high epic dungeons.

Lengthen or overhaul the dungeon, that'd be great, hell, add another epic dungeon to the sibiyad area and breathe some life(via traffic) into it, but...

I'm with TimeAdept. Don't nerf the surface.

I, too, am against the removal of the RDI Portal, but only because I don't think it achieves the ends it sets out to achieve- unless the very next move is to drastically increase the number of ships available.

For the rest of this conversation, while I understand the sentiment about balance, there's a certain division of mindset here that really bothers me.

No player 'owns' or 'belongs in' the UD OR the Surface. So long as all rules are followed, no one player has more right to be in a location than another. If there's stuff you(clarification- 'you' being your character) need in the UD, and you're an adventurer, you're probably going into the UD. If there's stuff you need on the surface, and you're an adventuring monster from the UD, you're probably going to the surface. It's dangerous, yeah, but you're an adventurer, and danger doesn't stop you from doing stupid/amazing/both-at-once things.

When asking why there are so many more dungeons/loot resource in the UD than the Surface, this is one of those things where it's not about mechanical balance, it's about immersion. On the surface, you have things like sunlight and singing birds and hope to go with your evil villains. In the UD, you have monsters coexisting in a twisted form of civilization.

No one asks why most accidents happen within two miles of home- it's because that's where most of your driving happens, so that's where most of your accidents will happen. It's the same thing, here. Form follows function. Most of the time you aren't going to find an epic war band of monsters in a hidden dark lord's keep at the sunny grassy field where the birds sing and the bunnies play - but most of the time you ARE, even when you aren't looking for it, deep in the bowels of Faerun known as the Underdark.


All this said, would I be against more surface content? Of course not! Do I mind that I have to go underground to find some rare stuff? Nope.

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:42 am No player 'owns' or 'belongs in' the UD OR the Surface.

To add clarification, this is not what I was saying even slightly. More that there is a certain ease of access to epic dungeons enjoyed by underdark-based characters that surface based characters do not have, and that late game content such as this should be more evenly distributed across the servers and module as a whole rather than concentrated in a single place. There is a reason I put the word "belonging" in quotation marks in my initial post.

Disclaimer: Keep in mind I'm a big n00b and not even level 30 yet so take what I say with a grain of salt.

The surface groups I tend to adventure with seem to be hitting other FOIG dungeons more than RDI. I've even gotten some of that secret FOIG endgame stuff from those runs. When we do go to RDI we almost always encounter pirates or underdwellers, and usually end up warding the portal to prevent us from getting ambushed. Not only is RDI a lot harder and more dangerous but your chances of having a PVP encounter there are pretty high and when you do get to the end you're lucky if there's any good loot or anything left. Plus RDI is very prone to crashing whenever spellcasters spam certain spells or you bring a larger than average party.

IMO there is no reason to get rid of the portal because there are existing game mechanics to disable it for a while if you want to avoid PVP while there. Surface also doesn't have a ton of end-game dungeons. If you get rid of the portal I think adding another easily accessible end-game dungeon with end-game loot on the surface along with a lot more ships would be necessary. I know pirate players want more chances to do pirate things and PVP but if we've got a whopping two ships on the surface that are shared by 3-4 players then just removing the portal alone isn't exactly going to funnel a lot of players into their nets. Definitely need more ships.

Removing the portal will not remove the problem. Hard no.