Arelith

Hey folks. I'd like to open an inquiry here into a certain dimension to the Arelith experience that I recently encountered: Being reprimanded by staff for using strong language in-character. I was a little nettled at the time, so I decided to cool off and investigate the topic at large. And now I have decided to share my findings and my thoughts.

The Official Stuff
Arelith Policy is based on the PG-13 rating of the MPAA; Motion Picture Association of America. Of which I could not find any official content descriptions besides "might be inappropriate for teenagers". The BBFC, the British Board of Film Classifcations, however, explains that they maintain a policy based on calibrating ratings after expectations. Where each questionable part of a movie is reviewed within the context of its presentation. So given the lacking official description of what PG-13 is, I presume the same counts for the MPAA. Nevertheless, people who did a lot more research into this than I did managed to distill that, for example, any presence of blood in an act of violence is not allowed in a PG-13 rating. A modern example being some movie called World War Z, where all the zombie violence between guns and cannibals came without the presence of blood. This being but one of many examples.

There are other things as well, but merely based on the bloodless violence clause; Neverwinter Nights cannot conform to a PG-13 standard. The moment you go into a dungeon and twack something dead it has a propensity for exploding in a gush of blood and gore, making our PG-13 label defunct. Another problem here is that the PG-13 label cannot actually be issued by anyone other than the MPAA. Besides that, Arelith is not a motion picture. And besides 'that', RPing is more literary than audio-visual. So a rating from a motion picture association that did not review the product in question is not only superfluous, but also confusing. A confusion that only gets worse when you consider the rating is specific to the USA, yet being presented to an international audience.

So, following this I looked into the obvious alternatives:

ESRB Ratings
https://i.gyazo.com/21099199d68b1e88a5f ... 8780b6.png
https://i.gyazo.com/00376551e0b4e67fdf5 ... dd52c5.png

PEGI Ratings
https://i.gyazo.com/ca6c779336c3d7071f8 ... cd4f7d.png

These three pictures reflect all available, official online information regarding the age ratings associated to Neverwinter Nights and its sequel. With the first two pictures being the ESRB ratings, from the Entertainment Software Rating Board in the United States, and the last picture being PEGI; Pan European Game Information.

What we see here is that the game is rated T for teens under the ESRB system, and 12+ under the PEGI system. With the sole exception being the Kingmaker module, which is regarded as Mature under the ESRB. It is noted here and there that these ratings may not reflect the online environments of Neverwinter Nights. However Arelith makes an active case that it does maintain a "PG-13" rating. So for the purposes of our own online environment we can presume that T and 12+ would be the standard under which Arelith is opting to operate. To confirm this we have to look into the actual descriptors themselves, so let us analyse them with the topic of foul language in mind:

ESRB T for Teens
https://i.gyazo.com/a869072e6a24ffef146 ... 50423c.png
Denotes infrequent use of strong language.

PEGI +12
https://i.gyazo.com/3b0f97e1cbb760a778f ... 45fca0.png
Denotes no use of strong language, instead that there is a presence of mild language.

I decided to investigate what these descriptions actually mean. And while the results of this investigation are somewhat inconclusive, the following perogative seems to exist among sources that try to explain it:

In the English language
Mild language is a range of words that ramp up 'hell', 'crap' and 'damn'.
Strong language is a range of words that ramp up to the likes of 'shit', 'Snuggle a Bugbear' and 'Manatee'. (It seems the forum humorously filtered the last two and substituted it with other words). Native English Speakers should have a better grasp of what delineates mild from strong in this instance.

Based on these findings, the words I was being reprimanded for (shite & feck) fell well within the realm of strong language. And given their frequent use, there was indeed reason to reprimand me for their use when going by these rating systems.

My Advice in light of the above
Use ESRB T or PEGI +12 instead of the nebulous derivative of PG-13. The present policy does not serve the server's administration or userbase optimally, as the official ratings on the game itself are more in line with the reality of the server policy. I originally thought that the ESRB or PEGI might me more lenient with strong language and suggestive themes, and that this was the reason you guys were using PG-13 to begin with. But my investigation into the topic shows that this is not the case, and that the T and +12 ratings mirror the wishes of the administration. This should make for a convincing case to no longer use the confused and possibly illegitimately employed PG-13 label, in favor of the ESRB and PEGI ratings already on the box.



Now, let's get philosophical
The above is my investigation, which I hope the administration may view the merit of. What comes next are my personal thoughts on the matter of strong language, as I do have a number of questions. These questions are not meant as an appeal to change policy, but merely to poll some thoughts.

- What is actually suitable for teenagers? I remember swearing a lot more when I was 13 to 16, compared with 18 to 28. And I wasn't exactly a delinquent.
(I swear, I wasn't!)
I am under the impression these rating systems, in principle, present little more than wishful thinking. Rather than an accurate portrayal of people, society and most importantly, teenagers.

- Should the definitions of mild and strong language on a server like this be controlled by native english speakers? It feels like the Anglosphere's sensitivities about their own language sometimes reaches victorian degrees of correctness. And we all know that allergic reactions are not caused by pathogens, but by a wrong response to something otherwise harmless.

- Swearing in RP is the simulation of swearing between fictional characters within an equally fictional context, rather than a maligning adress from one player to the other. These moments of expression are often representative of a simulated 'foul mood', which one can express with either agression, foul language, or even murder depend on how unhinged the character might be. Some characters may opt to express being unphased, or bottling up their anger. With that in mind, can we really consider a swearing character as if it were a case of actual swearing? What if they're in a perpetually foul mood, and swearing is their outlet?

- Literature, books, blogs and other written works. Both fictional and otherwise; aren't subject to legally-binding age-restricting rating systems as far as I could find, besides a list of books banned by specific governments. With that in mind, should RP driven primarilly through text even be judged through rating systems designed for audio-visual media? Are written expressions to be judged the same as the animated, drawn, spoken or filmed ones? Everything done through text is descriptive and implied rather than depictive and presented. The very nature of "reading", in itself, is something voluntary. Should we really be treating a description of agression as if it were a depiction of agression, or worse, an act of agression?

- Lastly. . .Well. I think this is the one that comes to mind first for many people. So I'll simply leave it as one clever line in an effort to appear witty:
Let it be clear that swearing like a sailor is what violates the virgin eyes of our teenage players, on the bloody torture and murder scenes of our human sacrifice and monster genocide simulator.


I would like to hear the thoughts of whoever else on this forum has an opinion on this matter. And invite them to point out any flaws in the assessments I've made. Cheers, folks.

I agree with some of your conclusions and apreciate the fact that you actually put thought into it, but from what I recall and have seen over the years, the PG13 and the way the different Dev and DM teams have dealt with it, has always come down to the same notion:

It is just easier to err on the side of caution.

Meaning, as much as, in general, the server's population MIGHT be mature enough to handle things beyond what is currently allowed, that is not enough.

And the Devs and DMs have better and more pleasant things to do than having to deal with parents upset because their 11 year old was just exposed to some elf with agressive naked kung fu. As has happened in the past.

Hell, even I had to deal with someone else's parent as a faction leader once, because their child was crying, in real life, over being grieffed by another player. It was a bizarre and unpleasant experience.


So, long story short, as much as many of us might not mind too much the use of foul language, explicit violence or the heresy of exposed nipples, that will never be a universal truth, and the potential headaches are just not worth it.

Borin Drakkmurl wrote: Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:34 pm

I certainly agree that griefing is not acceptable. And highlight that I am not presenting a case to consider griefing 'or' swearing in any form of OOC conduct. Neither am I presenting a case for suggestive themes to be given leniency in-game. No. I am presenting, strictly, a case surrounding the speech patterns of characters, in-character.

Besides that. Children under the age of 13 aren't advised/allowed to even play these games in 'single-player' when going by the official ratings. There has to be a consideration in how far bad parenting is the consequence of these "headaches" as opposed to server policy. Wouldn't facilitating the presence of pre-pubescent children, contrary to the offical ratings on the game, be the riskier thing to do?

I always thought it came down to liability rather than actual protection of one's feelings.

The staff has enough on their plate without a militant parent or some organization going hardline at Arelith because they saw someone use a bad word. This is likely why they have a no tolerance policy on the whole digital sex thing (and probably other reasons too.)

Also NWN features a blood and violence slider, so it does have full protection against blood and red explosions - presumably our super-moms are turning that all the way down before watching over their child's shoulder for the next thing to rage at. (I'm being tongue in cheek here, calm down).

It's a tough subject. You can never stop anyone from logging in for the first time just like anyone can just adjust their age before viewing the next super violent shooting game on Steam. I guess Arelith could have a "you must be 18 or older to log in" message, but that could invite or imply a whole other type of crowd.

I've had fun role-playing with younger folk before after finding out about their age down the line. Many of them are capable and creative, and pushing them out of the game would be maybe not the best either.

At the end of the day I find it a simpler path to be creative with my character's language than to overhaul the server's policies and culture. Then again I am blessed with the amazing swear-all "Vith."

the biggest mistake is your using the movie rating system. the game isnt pg 13 its pre teen which means parents can let those 10 and up feel safe. I played on a server back when the game first came out and we had 8-10 year olds playing and that was back in 2003.

the Arelith pg-13 rating is not the same as parents letting kids see a movie which is totally in their control.

The devs and dms are clear as they are the parents of the sandbox called arelith. IC actions and swearing so to speak, need to be kept within reason.

And what counts as a swearing in reality most words dont relate in character anyway. F**k for instance isnt even a word that would be used in character. Why because it is a reality slang term.

Other threads have been posted before to the degree of swearing that is acceptable. Shite for example is IC good for its modern evolution every so often. your example maybe just used it way to often. Ive seen it used as an exclamation but not as an every third word

Im sure if you look them up you can find the full example list given by DMs in the past that will solve this issue

I completely avoid swearing IC. Yes, it can be practical to hit home the message: Your char is a filthy dirt-mouth. Works for me, on a personal level. Never bothered me either, and I started here when I was 13.

A snippet of my own (very humble) opinion: In 95% of the cases, swearing isn't needed in game. In the worst case, it becomes a blunt repetition, making a character quite one-dimensional. There are certain associations with strong language. If used subtly and creatively, it can give a lot of depth and characteristics to a character. But I have yet to find any examples where cursing as a standard helped any concept. It's very stereotypical. And that's coming from a huge Deadpool fan ^^

As for the actual guidelines by the organizations linked above... I don't have a clue how they formulate their stuff (didn't bother reading through it), but I always felt that the DMs and Admins put a lot of thought into their decisions. One indicator I find very reliable is that the punishments I earned (there have been a few) always seemed reasonable and well justified when giving it some thought after the first bout of frustration and anger.

Taking a modern swear word and changing one letter of it is unacceptable. Such should be common sense and for the most part, I have not seen it to be a problem on Arelith, thankfully. There are other ways to drive the point home that your character has a dirty mouth, but when you use modern cuss words (even slightly altered), it breaks immersion and easily comes off as the player saying those things instead of the character. It makes it easy for you to lose your temper OOCly, IC. Don't do it.

Instead, consider that there are realms-specific curse words. I'm sure if you google, examples can be easily found. Other than that, "Sard" was the first iteration of the f-bomb back in the medieval era. There is also the prolific "Pike off/yourself". Compare someone humorously to the shortcomings of various gods in an unfavorable fashion. There are ways to do what you're trying to accomplish without being inappropriate.

This isn't some shortcoming of the server. Most everyone I meet on the server (even after over 10 years of play) seems to understand what PG-13 means as far as foul language is concerned; and if they do not, they get reminded by the team. And, usually, if you're being talked to by the team you've probably been reported by your fellow players several times. So it isn't some targeted unfairness of the server, it's your fellow players who have found it objectionable.

k

In other news, if you see something you don't like. Just report it, and if the DM talks to you about it. Adjust.
This isn't a debate, whatever the admins and DMs say goes, that's really it. If you're uncomfortable about it you can send a tell. If they continue, you send a report. Be mindful of your own roleplay, don't bother trying to waste your time controlling others with what you think is appropriate however.

Leave it to the authorities. Thanks.

I've never seen the strong or excessive language or sexual content we address others for using seen in ESRB T, or when it is used, it is used very tastefully and very rarely.

In every character we've addressed on Arelith we've found breaking the rules, their content has gone beyond what is seen in PG-13 or a T rated game. Personally, I use the standard campaign as a reference. There are several words used in there, all appropriate to use now and then. There is even a bordello, which is very tastefully done, even with a fade to black. Instances of torture, very tasteful.

When Arelith characters replicate this, be it the language used, or bordello-like activities, they tend to go way too far. They do not see the line of tastefulness the art highlights, or the language acts, and it becomes tasteless and more mature (in an ironically immature presentation). A few do it well, but when they do, it's not for the aim of the language or content. Its there because it makes sense.

Allowing this content to go unchecked for too long can have a negative affect on players, setting, etc, and we wish to keep our setting T/PG-13 to our audience aim.

This is never changing, and it is not up for debate. Fortunately, there are more mature servers out there that suit R/M, adult, or more relaxed ratings, and you can always also play there if you seek to enjoy certain character types you do not think you can represent effectively (Though I personally believe you can represent any character effectively under PG-13).

I've always been of a simple opinion of the matter.

We do not allow young children PCs.

We should not allow young children players.

16 should be the cutoff point, and now that steam and beamdog have brought hundreds of older teens and above into the fold, it is no longer a necessity that we accept every warm body to the server population.

NwN, and more importantly, forgotten realms AS. A. SETTING. is gritty and dark.
There is slavery, genocide, torture, rape, murder, prostitution... all built in to the setting. If someone is familiar with the setting, they've been exposed to this, either in passing, or graphically, especially if they read ANY of the books.

Frankly, Arelith is not a hugbox, and I've never liked that official policy is that it tries to be tamer than the main campaign.

I agree with the idea of putting the "PG-13" rating into terms that international players will have an easier time understanding. (I'm in the US, and even I don't have a clear understanding of what PG-13 really means.) However, I'm extremely wary of attaching it directly to an established rating system, without a lot of caveats and addenda, because the clearer the line, the more likely it is that players will put their toes right on it and then try to rules lawyer when they're told to take a step back.

I think you can get by fine without swearing (*curses* if i need it works for me)...

...but those are not modern swear words. C'mon now

Durvayas wrote: Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:52 pm NwN, and more importantly, forgotten realms AS. A. SETTING. is gritty and dark.
There is slavery, genocide, torture, rape, murder, prostitution... all built in to the setting. If someone is familiar with the setting, they've been exposed to this, either in passing, or graphically, especially if they read ANY of the books.

Frankly, Arelith is not a hugbox, and I've never liked that official policy is that it tries to be tamer than the main campaign.

It's not though. ESRB has rated NWN T for teens, or Pegi 12. Which is younger than our server even. And saying that anyone with knowledge of the setting is exposed to graphic depictions of more adult themes is hyperbolic to the extreme. We can have functional slavery, mutilation, cannibalism and what have you on a PG13 rating, so long as we don't go in-depth with the depictions of it.

Honestly I like it because it makes people get creative when they make gritty or dark characters instead of just writing porn-like descriptions of the awful things they do/have done to them.

Lol get real people... most kids have not only already heard things like the F word but use them constantly when parents are not around. Same thing with any other thing considered not for kids... they already seen it, heard it, and done it. Hell i went by the school today and heard a bunch of 6 year olds using the N word every five seconds.

Vrass wrote: Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:23 pm Lol get real people... most kids have not only already heard things like the F word but use them constantly when parents are not around. Same thing with any other thing considered not for kids... they already seen it, heard it, and done it. Hell i went by the school today and heard a bunch of 6 year olds using the N word every five seconds.

I am sure we're all very aware of that and have seen it ourselves. It does not change the fact that you and I do not represent 100% of the people who might end up experiencing Arelith.

So, consider the fact that Arelith is something that a bunch folk do and maintain for free, with a lot of heavy work put into it. Is it really worth it, the hassle and possible trouble of dealing with upset people, just for the sake of being able to use cuss words, elaborately describe pixelated sex, and emote needlessly gory violence?

I, at least, do not think so.

Arelith's setting is not The Witcher's, and it certainly is not Sinfar. Those are two places where folk can go and enjoy many things Arelith does not support.

Borin Drakkmurl wrote: Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:34 pm I agree with some of your conclusions and apreciate the fact that you actually put thought into it, but from what I recall and have seen over the years, the PG13 and the way the different Dev and DM teams have dealt with it, has always come down to the same notion:

It is just easier to err on the side of caution.

Meaning, as much as, in general, the server's population MIGHT be mature enough to handle things beyond what is currently allowed, that is not enough.

And the Devs and DMs have better and more pleasant things to do than having to deal with parents upset because their 11 year old was just exposed to some elf with agressive naked kung fu. As has happened in the past.

Hell, even I had to deal with someone else's parent as a faction leader once, because their child was crying, in real life, over being grieffed by another player. It was a bizarre and unpleasant experience.


So, long story short, as much as many of us might not mind too much the use of foul language, explicit violence or the heresy of exposed nipples, that will never be a universal truth, and the potential headaches are just not worth it.

*Begins to make a long and cohesive conversation about the PG13 rating*

*Reads this post*

...

*Points above* This. Basically.

Yeah the ratings don't make a ton of sense tbf,

The game is brutal I think, given the races, and their culture. Drow, most obviously. In the UD now there are piles of corpses and flesh abominations of those corpses being stitched together but curse words and suggestive actions are regarded as 'too much' to handle.
There's soul killing, demons, devils, and heads on pikes, heck your characters head might be the one on a pike. In Stonehold there is that bed with 2 sets of chains on it and slave dancers in the main lobby. The slave pens have acid showers to wash off filthy surface stink. My character has come across the 'bloated corpses' of the rotting bodies of her kin. The list goes on.

I think it is for sure backwards that some of the above examples are within the game world but the notion that things are pg-13 is held onto. I think rather then beating around the bush that is aimed most certainly as a bulwark against overly sexualized styles of Roleplay etc. And I think that is fair enough, it'd get out of hand if there wasn't some mediation.

I think the rating or wording of how Arelith presents itself could certainly be reviewed, but I think on issues like this the staff is rather firm on it. If you don't like it go somewhere else we're not changing. I don't personally like that response, but I guess if you were to look at the amount of time it would take to really 'redefine' that guideline, there's otherstuff to focus on that has greater impact then fine tuning the wording when the Pg-13 guideline for the most part conveys what they want.

Sometimes I feel the PG 13 rule hampers creative ability, but if that's the price I have to pay to keep Arelith the kind and happy server that fosters good RP and positive OOC interactions I'd pay it any day.

Sometimes I like to experiment and portray some darker / more depressing elements of life in the game which I am sure I would be perfectly alright to roleplay. But given our rules are as vague as /PG 13/ I choose not to pursue any of them because I feel getting too gritty could somehow cross some lines.

When it comes to art, or production of entertainment age ratings are a big deal. For example the film Watchmen dealt with some pretty serious stuff and by no means had a happy ending. But could the story be the same and have a similar emotional effect on the audience with a PG 13 rating?

Perhaps, but I feel people are focusing on the wrong parts of this rule. Yes it restricts art and expression, but that is the price that is required in order to have a functioning wholesome server.

I'm going to chime in here to give you guys a bit of an "Admin's Perspective" of the why Arelith came to be as a PG13 Server, and why we strive to keep it as a PG13 Server.

Historically, Arelith was a place for Jjj to play with his friends, his wife, his friends, and their children. So, from early on we have had 10/12/13/14 year olds run around the server. While the original "kids" have outgrown Arelith a long, long time ago, it is still a place where we find parents playing with their children, or where 12/13/14/15 year olds find their own way here. We still, to this day have 2nd generation, and new kids play on our server. And that is Okay. We like it that way, and we want to keep it that way. In a way, Arelith is a safer space for kids to run around in, than some of the neighbourhoods of Detroit, Harlem, Delhi, Berlin, etc.

Another reason, why PG13 is so important to us, is because we have a lot of Adults who enjoy an escape from adult themes. Who enjoy a world, they can play for exploration sake, adventuring sake, and story quality that doesn't lead to sexy elven fun times/Rape/Torture/Gritty blah. There are MANY adults who are very, very uncomfortable with the level of MA that happens on Porn/Horror/Sinfar/sexy elven fun times settings, etc. We want to stay PG13 to keep the focus on Story and Adventure. A place, where a drop of romance is a tool to advance a story arch. A place, where a dribble of violence is equally, a tool for development. A place, where the curiosity and adventure of exploring a world can drive a story. We don't want a server, where whatever happens, is just an excuse to get into someone else's pants. It's boring and tedious and doesn't really give much of a tale for DMs and other players to jump on and enjoy.

And the most important reason, why PG13 is so important is not going to change, and why we crack down as hard as we can on PG13 violations is because at some point in the past, we almost lost the server due to it.
One player lured another player into a cyber session on Skype, using Arelith to get them over. One of those players was a 13 year old. The parents found out and it lead to serious legal back and forth. Let that sink in. We nearly lost the server over a PG13 case, and worst case it COULD have meant a jail sentence for Arelith Admins - namely Mithreas and Jjj who were running the server at the time (all of the legal entities involved were in the USA).

We cannot card people upon entry. We cannot ensure people ARE old/mature enough. And we won't (for the above mentioned first 2 reasons).
We will NOT change our PG13 stance, and we WILL continue to deny cybering/excessive torture/excessive grit/excessive horror/excessive language/etc. in light of our previous experiences. We love and care about our server. We are not going to risk losing it again (however unlikely it is, with many laws and legalities being made more complex due to multi-national hostings, etc. But honestly - it's not worth the hassle, it's not worth the risk).

And so, as Titania has already said: This is never changing.