Arelith

So I'm not a fan of the decoupling to begin with, but that's not going to be the focus of this discussion.

I play Rick Snyder, who's known to be an enchanter. I didn't do it just for being able to make gear; it's a core part of his roleplay and he uses the spells a lot.

With this patch, I'm not able to enchant anymore. Relevels/rebuilds have been offered, but that doesn't change the fact that now I have to sacrifice EDK to be able to do something I could already do while, overnight, dozens of people will go from not being able to enchant to being better than someone that's been doing it for a while.

What is the reason for not counting a wizard's scribe scroll?

Wizards are flush with feats. It’s not an exchange of an epic feat. Take wands, potions or any of the non epic crafting feats. Plenty of options out there.

Xerah wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:07 am Wizards are flush with feats. It’s not an exchange of an epic feat. Take wands, potions or any of the non epic crafting feats. Plenty of options out there.

It's a significantly bigger sacrifice if you take PM or harper levels, or are a non-human/non-gnome. You essentially have to give up an epic spell or an ESF. It's not nothing.

Three ESFs is right at the point where you start seriously considering why you're a wizard and not a sorcerer who'd do everything you want to do but better.

I have to drop an ESF or EDK to do what I could already do before. I have to lose functionality to do something my character was supposed to be specialized in.

just to be clear: you have to drop an epic spell to be able to enchant at all? or just to enchant at the tippy top tier?

To do top-tier, which I already could've done because I was an ESF: Enchanter.

I'm inclined to agree with you completely on this one

It's strange that the wizards who actively specialize in enchantment are in no way better at enchanting than other wizards, and in fact could very easily be considerably worse.
It's kind of a strange decision tbh

GodOfTheWorms wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:41 am I'm inclined to agree with you completely on this one

It's strange that the wizards who actively specialize in enchantment are in no way better at enchanting than other wizards, and in fact could very easily be considerably worse.
It's kind of a strange decision tbh

Not really. Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior. It was always something that was misnamed. If anything, it should have switched to transmutation but this method is preferable.

Moving my questions here and getting rid of my accidental double-post.

Is the team unwilling to pick a feat to attach it to for wizards who have already invested?

Alternatively, is there any way that preexisting epic enchanters could be grandfathered, ie. with the creation of a token that maxes dweomercrafting, similar to our tokens for backgrounds/classes? Not sure if it’s currently possible.

I agree with op.
My Epic druid can now enchant perfectly where an hour ago that was not the case!
Now dedicated Enchanters who rebuild will lose a feat at the cost of being able to do top tier where they had been able to do. I guess i just tend to lean towards the old, If it aint broke dont fix it.

lordadam12 wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:51 am I agree with op.
My Epic druid can now enchant perfectly where an hour ago that was not the case!
Now dedicated Enchanters who rebuild will lose a feat at the cost of being able to do top tier where they had been able to do. I guess i just tend to lean towards the old, If it aint broke dont fix it.

yeah this is where i'm at now, or at the very least grandfather the old ones in

So, as someone who just went from not being able to enchant, to being able to enchant, I agree with the OP. Not every wizard gets craft wand, why are they being punished for it?

Is it really that bad to just say that wizards, the studious, arcane spell casters of Faerun are just a bit more natural at enchanting than others? If it was like this from the beginning, I wouldn't mind so much. But this is an incredibly sudden change that hurts a lot of people and conflicts with things people have been roleplaying.

90% of the enchanting and artificing done in FR is done by wizards, and most of the enchanters on Arelith have been wizards anyway.

Xerah wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:44 am

GodOfTheWorms wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:41 am I'm inclined to agree with you completely on this one

It's strange that the wizards who actively specialize in enchantment are in no way better at enchanting than other wizards, and in fact could very easily be considerably worse.
It's kind of a strange decision tbh

Not really. Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior. It was always something that was misnamed. If anything, it should have switched to transmutation but this method is preferable.

Makes about as much sense as being able to brew a potion. Or.. a sorcerer learning to scribe a scroll translating better than a wizard.

Xerah wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:07 am Wizards are flush with feats. It’s not an exchange of an epic feat. Take wands, potions or any of the non epic crafting feats. Plenty of options out there.

I can see the argument to support the new 'Wizard dip'. I'll agree to disagree

The update costs something. A brew feat or skill focus that was never optimal to begin with. It looks like the whole enchanting spell line is being reworked to be competitive, and with that increased power it costs something for enchanters to obtain Tier 3. IMO, it seems fairly quid pro quo.

Enchantment Basin

Enchantment Spell Focus

hmmm

Ork wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:51 am The update costs something. A brew feat or skill focus that was never optimal to begin with. It looks like the whole enchanting spell line is being reworked to be competitive, and with that increased power it costs something for enchanters to obtain Tier 3. IMO, it seems fairly quid pro quo.

Yes, but I worked both aspects of enchantment into my character's RP, and now he's lost a function.

A good-and-or-bad side effect.. The wand and potion market is about to be flooded with product since a whole lot more casters will be taking those feats. My rogue will be much happier than my wizard about this.

The only thing I dont agree with is that Clerics get enchanting.

Clerics get enough good stuff.

Yeah. So if the market's going to be flooded anyway, is it really detrimental to make wizard Scribe Scroll count? The service is hardly unique anymore.

I'm playing an enchanter in both the mind-altering and item-crafting way. I'm thrilled that enchantment focii aren't going into item enchantment anymore, because it was my biggest pet peeve that mind altering magic was used to... put +1 AC on armor and make boots sneakier. That makes no sense! It should have been Transmutation all along if anything.

I'm less thrilled at the fact that I play an enchanter-psychotherapist who's been doing a lot of roleplay surrounding the fact that she uses magic to help people overcome their emotional hangups. It's not something I want to give up, and while I know it can still kinda happen without the feats attached, I don't like how I'd be unable to justify mastery over the subject without the epic feats to show for it. I'm similarly attached to the rest of my feats, as I've put in a fair amount of roleplay investment for each of them. The only feat I'd be willing to trade out for wand crafting is one I got at level 1 - so I'd have to remake the entire character! In spite of all these sudden changes that have me kinda worried about what to do with myself since I don't know for sure how I want to proceed, I'm still absolutely thrilled about this update. It seems like both enchantment focii and "dweomercraft" got a huge upgrade for the long term health of the systems, and the enchantment school is only gonna get better with time if they're gonna get a brand new command! There's no denying that it puts present enchanters in a pickle, but I 100% think it's worth it in the long run.

I wouldn't be opposed to seeing wizards' innate scribe scroll feat counting towards dweomercraft, but I understand wizards are already fat with feats, and I don't think it's fair to the rest of the spellcaster classes to hand them so many freebies. To be good at enchanting items, I should hope everyone has to work for it at some capacity. If the innate scribe scroll went towards it, almost every wizard would be master enchanters for free.

As an aside, I'm kinda hoping to see society stigmatize enchanters in the near future, since mental manipulation magic is totally whack.

My honest opinion is that Scribe Scroll shouldn't count for purposes of dweomercraft.

Instead, give all "non-hybrid casters," referring to sorcerers, druids, clerics and wizards scribe scroll for free. Because it's weird that one class can scribe scrolls but doesn't get the basinbonus out of it, just seems sort of specific and weird and I don't like it.

Further, split the three tiers differently. At every 9 levels instead of 12 -- meaning, yes, casters would get the third tier at level 27., stacking obviously with harper/palemaster/even shadowdancer for shadow mage if you wanted to get silly. You could give the hybrid casters the same thing or the current 1-every-12 scaling the current guys have.

I don't like how making magical items (that literally every build, all people, all things that haven't completely compromised the ability to do anything as far as dungeoning/pvp goes need) is this big special thing and I say this as someone whose longest standing character was an ESF enchanter and made a lot more items than yours did. Ancap enchants now. Also by the way,

Melancholy Hill wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:00 am Enchantment Basin

Enchantment Spell Focus

hmmm

stop

Zavandar wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:23 am Yeah. So if the market's going to be flooded anyway, is it really detrimental to make wizard Scribe Scroll count? The service is hardly unique anymore.

Wiz would just get it for free in that case with 24 levels, as opposed to taking 1 feat

Melancholy Hill wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:00 am Enchantment Basin

Enchantment Spell Focus

hmmm

they're dweomercraft basins now, BUDDY

Melancholy Hill wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:05 am

Zavandar wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:23 am Yeah. So if the market's going to be flooded anyway, is it really detrimental to make wizard Scribe Scroll count? The service is hardly unique anymore.

Wiz would just get it for free in that case with 24 levels, as opposed to taking 1 feat

Yes.