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True Seeing Plans
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:13 am
by Hazard
So, I'd like to know what the future plans are (if any) with True Seeing, because it seems unfinished or a little odd to me. Inconsistent at least.
The spell itself has been removed/nerfed into more of a 'detection pulse' which is cool for stealthers. No complaints.
Umberhulk, Pseudodragon familiar, Red Dragon Shapechange and Dragon PCs (I think) still all have perma True Seeing, but warlock Balors and a druid's Dragonshape do NOT have True Seeing. NPCs retain normal True Seeing.
Will True Seeing be coming back to Dragonshape for consistancy/balance, or some other detection buff? Currenly a huge pain in the Snuggybear that the best Dragon form ability in the game lacks this. Will all Balors have True Seeing removed from the module? Will Umberhulk and Red Dragon forms via spells have theirs removed or will they remain?
I'm just curious, and I've felt that for a long time that these changes may or may not be coming. Just wondering if anything at all is planned or if we're just going to stay with how things are.
Re: True Seeing Plans
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:36 am
by Fionn
I thought I remembered it being removed from Familiars.
Re: True Seeing Plans
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:58 pm
by Durvayas
Dragon PCs had their True Seeing removed recently.
Re: True Seeing Plans
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:44 pm
by Cerk Evermoore
True Sight is so weird. As someone who can cast it, I have given up putting it into my spell book. I'll just turn into a hasted Umberhulk I guess, because 3 seconds of stealth detection is garbage unless you catch someone with their pants down trying to sneak into your quarter with you.
Re: True Seeing Plans
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:47 pm
by Shadowy Reality
I have to agree, there is absolutely no reason to prepare True Seeing. You are better just scribing yourself scrolls and use them as you need, otherwise it is a dead spellslot.
This also makes catching PCs with HiPs incredibly frustrating, as they can just keep dancing around your True Seeing.
Re: True Seeing Plans
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:13 pm
by Hazard
Cerk Evermoore wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:44 pm
True Sight is so weird. As someone who can cast it, I have given up putting it into my spell book. I'll just turn into a hasted Umberhulk I guess, because 3 seconds of stealth detection is garbage unless you catch someone with their pants down trying to sneak into your quarter with you.
Shadowy Reality wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:47 pm
I have to agree, there is absolutely no reason to prepare True Seeing. You are better just scribing yourself scrolls and use them as you need, otherwise it is a dead spellslot.
This also makes catching PCs with HiPs incredibly frustrating, as they can just keep dancing around your True Seeing.
I haven't used the spell since the nerf, myself. Polymorph is the only real way to have a look around, for example to make sure you weren't followed into your quarter by a door camper.
Durvayas wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:58 pm
Dragon PCs had their True Seeing removed recently.
Fionn wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:36 am
I thought I remembered it being removed from Familiars.
I was not aware. Thanks.
Re: True Seeing Plans
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:43 pm
by CosmicOrderV
Dragon PC's also had it added back, while in their dragonshape--just not their humanoid shape. So that helps dragons overall be a bit more consistent.
That said, I do also find it odd that the druid dragonshape doesn't have true sight anymore. I would think that one ought to come back, or at least some sort of big detection bonus is warranted.
That said, I've always felt like the umberhulk stuff was dumb. Especially because all the umberhulks I've encountered in the underdark don't have true sight. So why does the polymorph shape have it? Again, I would think this ought to more be some buff to detection, rather than persistent true sight.
Re: True Seeing Plans
Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:08 am
by Fionn
Cerk Evermoore wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:44 pm3 seconds of stealth detection is garbage unless you catch someone with their pants down trying to sneak into your quarter with you.
Caltrops last a lot longer
Re: True Seeing Plans
Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:19 am
by MissEvelyn
As someone who played a Weavemaster with epic focus in divination, the change didn't affect me at all, when I could just spam True Seeing as soon as it ran out.
Alas, it has severely crippled regular mages in their ability to detect sneaks.
Re: True Seeing Plans
Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:36 am
by Iceborn
Shadowy Reality wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:47 pm
I have to agree, there is absolutely no reason to prepare True Seeing. You are better just scribing yourself scrolls and use them as you need, otherwise it is a dead spellslot.
This also makes catching PCs with HiPs incredibly frustrating, as they can just keep dancing around your True Seeing.
I disagree. True Seeing still serves a catch-all spell, and just being able to spot somebody for one round may make all the difference in the world.
While HIPsers are annoying, now there's all the more reason in the world to actually invest in Spot and Listen.
Re: True Seeing Plans
Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:51 am
by Beard Master Flex
I feel like true seeing as it stands is a bit awkward but more fair then it was before the changes.
I used to play a stealth character years ago... that was his only real super power and it felt real crummy when it could be undone with a simple spell for 2-6+ minutes a cast and from scrolls on UMD characters. This was before rogues could move fast in stealth too so your only recourse was being out of line of sight.
The real bummer was when someone would just haste/trueseeing run around until they found you and then that’s that.
I feel like it’s a lot more strategic now then it was and it serves to give another good boon to the divination spell foci.
Maybe I’ll always be soft on stealth characters but as a player of mostly magicians now I think where the devs have left things for now is a good spot.
Re: True Seeing Plans
Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:18 am
by Orian_666
I do agree that some work still needs to be done in regards to True Seeing, but not the spell.
Currently I think the spell is in a good place, it's given stealthers a chance and it can still be used to find them, or for security when entering a house, leave the spell as it is!
But some of the other issues mentioned do bug me.
-Dragonshape needs to get it back, thematically it just makes sense and if all the other dragons have it then why not them, simple as that.
- Umberhulks (poly and NPC if any have it) need to have it removed, Umberhulks never had True Seeing in tabletop, they had Blindsense at best, remove TS from them and give them a huge Listen bonus instead to emulate Blindsense.
- As for the familiars I honestly think they need a new entire overhaul anyway (hello HaKs?). Pixies need to stop being rogues, Pseudodragons need to lose TS, and the rest need something to make them a viable option by comparison. Familiars need to be changed so they have some unique, non-overly-mechanically advantageous, quirks to each of them. But remove the obvious massive mechanical benefits that's causing pretty much everyone to have a Pixie or Pseudodragon.
- For the Balors, I don't really have any opinion or input in regards to them.
Re: True Seeing Plans
Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:32 am
by Alox
There needs to be viable ways to check for door campers sneaking into your quarter. Doesn't have to be free, but something that is available to most.
Re: True Seeing Plans
Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:06 pm
by Nitro
Alox wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:32 am
There needs to be viable ways to check for door campers sneaking into your quarter. Doesn't have to be free, but something that is available to most.
Step 1: Cast true seeing and look around. No stealther? Proceed to step 2.
Step 2: Enter your quarter.
Step 3: Repeat step 1 on the other side if you are worried someone ran up from around a corner while you were in the loading screen.
Re: True Seeing Plans
Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:36 pm
by Diilicious
if you have divination foci the trueseeing spell should give you AC as well as its current effects
Re: True Seeing Plans
Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:41 pm
by Alox
Nitro wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:06 pm
Alox wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:32 am
There needs to be viable ways to check for door campers sneaking into your quarter. Doesn't have to be free, but something that is available to most.
Step 1: Cast true seeing and look around. No stealther? Proceed to step 2.
Step 2: Enter your quarter.
Step 3: Repeat step 1 on the other side if you are worried someone ran up from around a corner while you were in the loading screen.
I think you misunderstand, I wasn't asking for how it works now. Merely, that if true seeing gets changed again, it needs to take stealth campers into consideration so people can still check for them in some reasonable capacity.
Re: True Seeing Plans
Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:39 pm
by Hazard
Pretty cool discussions going on here. Not exactly what I had in mind by starting the thread but it's all been cool and respectful so I'm happy for it to continue, and if a mod sees this maybe please shift the thread to the feedback section? <3
Re: True Seeing Plans
Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:29 pm
by CosmicOrderV
The more ideal order of operations would be to cast true sight once you're already on the other side of the transition. Unless your door isn't one that involves a transition, then it doesn't really matter whether you do it before or after.
Also, if you're fast enough (I realize some computers might take longer), you can actually cast True Sight right before going through the transition, and it will still be active by the time you load in on the other side. This goes especially for anyone with divination focii (worth mentioning is that there's gear with Divination Focus on it well, so if you do have a slow computer, try finding one of those).
One cast, and you'll see anyone sneaking in behind you.
Re: True Seeing Plans
Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:10 am
by Hazard
I think Dragonshape regaining True Seeing would be fair and balanced.
The dragon is large and players can easily get away from it. You are unable to cast spells/use scrolls/wands/items while a dragon. As far I know it can still only be used 3 times per day, which when combined with their size makes the ability pretty avoidable in combat if the opponent makes even very basic attempts of getting away/using the environment to their advantage.
It also adds a detector type form to the druid's arsenal. Currently they would have to drop form and cast true seeing (making themselves very vulnerable) and then get back into a fighting form. If the enemy hasn't escaped by then, they were probably typing.
Spot and listen aren't class skills for a druid.
If anyone or anything should be a detector type thing, I would think it would be a freakin' dragon.
When I still played my Shadowdancer there was a Dragonshaping druid I had some interactions with. This is before the Dragonshape nerf and before the True Seeing nerf. I remember having SO MUCH DAMN FUN while that dragon was shifting to detect me and then chase me, and I was weaving in and out of buildings and down alleys/around pillars to avoid it. Managing to get away, lay traps, and even kill it. That stuff was really exciting.
Now imagine these days, some dragon is keeping watch to guard a place under threat and someone just ... sneaks by it! Disappointing.
It's large enough and limited in ability enough that I think making it a detector wouldn't upset any balance. It would still have many, many flaws for a stealther to take advantage of.
Re: True Seeing Plans
Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:50 am
by Tarkus the dog
Hazard wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:10 amI think Dragonshape regaining True Seeing would be fair and balanced.
Honestly Dr. Hazard at this point I can just start quoting you like this, and half of the people I could send it to would find it hilarious without realizing you are being sincere. This time around I'm going to say that in another universe where true seeing isn't nerfed to shit you would be completely right, however:
Druids are probably the strongest class in the game at the moment, unironically, from a PvE, PvP and every other perspective that you can think of mechanics wise. They are gently shadowed by paladins ( becuase holy sword is still a thing that procs on each hit, for some reason, and also the free +3 CL bonus that they exclusively get since the fact that they need fighter levels does hold some water. except it doesn't because rangers, spellswords and clerics don't get the same treatment even though they need fighter levels just as much ), the palemasters, the monks and then the bards who luckily suffer the downside of being a support class, and playing support classes is boring. These classes however don't perform as well in PvE, but let's pretend for a moment that PvP isn't a daily thing on Arelith:
If anything should be done about True Seeing is that it should NOT be given to druids who are ridiculously strong as it is. The only thing that balances the druids is the fact that nobody wants to play tree loving hippies, and probably two or three people in total know how to actually play this class. What SHOULD be done is that true seeing should be removed from Polymorph (Umber Hulk), Shapechange (Red Dragon). I think it's a little bit of an insult to dragon PCs and Divination characters ( one thing I can say thought is that nobody picks divination to have extra few rounds of true seeing ). Dragon PCs now only get it in their polymorph ( which most of the time you shouldn't care for using in the first place since why'd your character come to Arelith disguised as a freaking human to begin with ), but so does Polymorph spell and Shapechange spell - so what's the big idea there? DIVINATION characters get a few more rounds of active true seeing, which is instantly outperformed, again, by Shapechange and Polymorph. There is a single thing I can say in defense of Polymorph and Shapechange spells and that is that, at least, while using those two spells you are weak as hell. Giving that to something that isn't weak ( Dragonshape ) isn't a very good idea. But the MORE important point is that: You need to either remove it from everything, or make it largely available as it used to be. Don't forget that Dragon Knight also gets true seeing, which druids can summon.
And don't get me started on Wild Mages and their -fate bullshittery which gives them true seeing anyway.
Re: True Seeing Plans
Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:57 am
by Hazard
Tarkus the dog wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:50 am
Hazard wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:10 amI think Dragonshape regaining True Seeing would be fair and balanced.
Honestly Dr. Hazard at this point I can just start quoting you like this, and half of the people I could send it to would find it hilarious without realizing you are being sincere. This time around I'm going to say that in another universe where true seeing isn't nerfed to shit you would be completely right, however:
Druids are probably the strongest class in the game at the moment, unironically, from a PvE, PvP and every other perspective that you can think of mechanics wise. They are gently shadowed by paladins ( becuase holy sword is still a thing that procs on each hit, for some reason, and also the free +3 CL bonus that they exclusively get since the fact that they need fighter levels does hold some water. except it doesn't because rangers, spellswords and clerics don't get the same treatment even though they need fighter levels just as much ), the palemasters, the monks and then the bards who luckily suffer the downside of being a support class, and playing support classes is boring. These classes however don't perform as well in PvE, but let's pretend for a moment that PvP isn't a daily thing on Arelith:
If anything should be done about True Seeing is that it should NOT be given to druids who are ridiculously strong as it is. The only thing that balances the druids is the fact that nobody wants to play tree loving hippies, and probably two or three people in total know how to actually play this class. What SHOULD be done is that true seeing should be removed from Polymorph (Umber Hulk), Shapechange (Red Dragon). I think it's a little bit of an insult to dragon PCs and Divination characters ( one thing I can say thought is that nobody picks divination to have extra few rounds of true seeing ). Dragon PCs now only get it in their polymorph ( which most of the time you shouldn't care for using in the first place since why'd your character come to Arelith disguised as a freaking human to begin with ), but so does Polymorph spell and Shapechange spell - so what's the big idea there? DIVINATION characters get a few more rounds of active true seeing, which is instantly outperformed, again, by Shapechange and Polymorph. There is a single thing I can say in defense of Polymorph and Shapechange spells and that is that, at least, while using those two spells you are weak as hell. Giving that to something that isn't weak ( Dragonshape ) isn't a very good idea. But the MORE important point is that: You need to either remove it from everything, or make it largely available as it used to be. Don't forget that Dragon Knight also gets true seeing, which druids can summon.
And don't get me started on Wild Mages and their -fate bullshittery which gives them true seeing anyway.
I'll do stand-up.
I just want ̶m̶i̶l̶k̶ dragons that ̶t̶a̶s̶t̶e̶s̶ feel like real ̶m̶i̶l̶k̶ dragons.
Giving such an ability back would, I assume, come with the appropriate balance tweaks in other areas of the class.
Re: True Seeing Plans
Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:17 am
by Cerk Evermoore
Will we see the return of bat totem druids?
As hilarious as they were, hopefully not!