Arelith

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:42 pm**

Hi,
I have a question, hoping I will get the answer here.

Why is there so much OOC information handled to players?

By this I mean now everyone can see at any moment if I am using using stealth.
Anyone can see, if I am using disguise (which feels like the point of using it).
Anyone can see, if they failed to brake disguise (they just failed it, you are also not noticed by the game when you fail to catch the pickpocket attempt).

Why am I asking is, that I cannot see any reason to handle this information to others, and I don't see, how this improves the game experience on any side. Therefore I believe there is some reason behind this I don't see.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:56 pm**

Stealth is actually pretty important.

If you have a spotter you cannot tell if that person you are seeing you see because you detected them, or because they are not trying to hide, unless they have their name grey. And it is a big difference whether someone is trying to sneak on you, or just walking your way. I would actually be able to tell if someone I see is invisible or not too.

For the disguise part, I agree that maybe you shouldnt be able to see people are disguised. BUT I think you definitely should know when you broke a disguise, because that is exactly it, you notice something is off. No message for when you fail, however.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:00 pm**

About stealth : Previously it was impossible to tell outright if you simply spotted someone who is walking around in stealth or if it's just another player walking along. Now at least people can tell if they discovered a character who was trying to sneak his way around.

About disguise : That has been explained elsewhere. The main reasons are for gameplay clarity and to help the DMs out to figure out situations that get reported which involve disguised characters. At least these are the reasons I am aware of.
Otherwise you will have to put some trust into your fellow players and hope they do not metagame you.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:39 pm**

We've recently had a whole thread about why (Disguised) is on the end of disguised player names, have a read through it and you'll find quite a number of good points.

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=22688

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:07 pm**

These aren’t new features. They just got reintroduced once more when plugins were fixed - they’ve existed for years.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:35 pm**

For one, yes Spyre is right. We have restored an existing functionality and OMG how have I missed it!!!!

My personal role play (non-Admin) opinion about stealth:
If a spotter can now tell that someone is stealthing, they can adjust their roleplay accordingly. Is it important to reveal them, and reveal my spottability, or is it mayhap more sensible to keep quiet about spotter having spotted them, but now know they like to sneak around?
Or ... if I revealed him outright: would I thus destroy both of our roleplay fun? Also, what situation am I in? Is it pertinent that we are in a secret meeting, and my spotter is along to make sure they are not snucked around: then yes... revelation is the way to go. If it's a stroll through the forest with no secrets shared, then hey.. why would I destroy the sneak's fun by following?

Same goes for Disguise, really ...

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:47 pm**

Thank for answers. Just quick reactions.
About stealth. Wouldn't there be better solution than to inform whole server? Like put there an effect (something like ghostly visage/ethereal visage, but with black overlay, not blue/magenta), which would be visible only to characters which can see a hider at the moment?
Notifying whole server seems.. unnecessary. And complicated.

Shadowy Reality wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:56 pm For the disguise part, I agree that maybe you shouldnt be able to see people are disguised. BUT I think you definitely should know when you broke a disguise, because that is exactly it, you notice something is off. No message for when you fail, however.

Yes, I meant only when you fail, I was not speaking about when you succeed, so we agree completely about this.

Richørd wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:00 pm About disguise : That has been explained elsewhere. The main reasons are for gameplay clarity and to help the DMs out to figure out situations that get reported which involve disguised characters. At least these are the reasons I am aware of.
Otherwise you will have to put some trust into your fellow players and hope they do not metagame you.

Well, putting trust in my fellow players would not be necessary, if they couldn't metagame me in the first place. Again, the question was why to give another players this kind of unnecessary information.

Can you direct me to where it has been explained? Thanks

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:05 pm**

No, because this isn't magically induced stealth, your vfx proposals would suggest it is.

The linked thread is further above your post.

Also, moving to feedback.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:07 pm**

Well,
I am not saying that spotter shouldn't be informed about hider, what I am concerned about is the means of delivery. Some that not whole server can see it.

LittleWeasel wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:35 pm For one, yes Spyre is right. We have restored an existing functionality and OMG how have I missed it!!!!

I don't know, you tell us, I never said I (or anyone) missed it.

What I am doing is questioning if this functionality was best implemented in the first place.
Doesn't matter if the functionality is new or years old.

Nitro wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:39 pm We've recently had a whole thread about why (Disguised) is on the end of disguised player names, have a read through it and you'll find quite a number of good points.

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=22688

Thanks, I'll move there with my question about the disguise.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:29 pm**

DM Titania wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:05 pm No, because this isn't magically induced stealth, your vfx proposals would suggest it is.

If there is rule, that all vfx has to be connected to magic, I wasn't aware of that.
My proposal would direct to effect like this:

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:48 pm**

It should be noted that the intention of these mechanics is to facilitate RP, not to OOCly trick players. You don't use disguise for your own benefit, you use it for the benefit of the overall story. If you suspect metagaming then report it to the DM staff. That said, the current version of the dynamic name implementation already fixes the grayed out name on the playerlist. It retains the grayed out name in the floaty name, however. There are also other measures to make the real identity harder to figure out using OOC methods, but the disguise tag is very much intended. These changes are on a slower pipeline than regular updates, which is why they have not gone live yet, but they're already implemented.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:24 pm**

Something that might be cool with haks, I've always thought would be a better fit than a greyed out name, would be some sort of new walk animation while stealthed. The character is all hunched forwards, knees high, and arms out, in a pretty obvious, "I'm up to no good, and prowling along," pose. Would both be more immersive, and easier to realize than wondering, "Okay, is that name greyed?"

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:26 pm**

I agree that the greyed-out names in the player list can lead to some easily avoidable metagaming. Just by keeping tabs on who tends to have a grey name, you have a pretty good idea as to who the spies and thieves are. With or without that knowledge, if you suspect you've been snuck behind when you've entered your quarter, you can just pop open the player list and see who's got a grey name and deduce the likelihood of your suspicion from there. While I agree that disguise tags and the grey name upon being spotted are useful and probably necessary in lieu of any custom stealth animations, I don't think the grey name needs to show up on the player list. If there's a way to prevent that, it'd be really nice, and I doubt it'd have any negative consequences whatsoever.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:04 pm**

Silvard wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:48 pm It should be noted that the intention of these mechanics is to facilitate RP, not to OOCly trick players. You don't use disguise for your own benefit, you use it for the benefit of the overall story. If you suspect metagaming then report it to the DM staff. That said, the current version of the dynamic name implementation already fixes the grayed out name on the playerlist. It retains the grayed out name in the floaty name, however. There are also other measures to make the real identity harder to figure out using OOC methods, but the disguise tag is very much intended. These changes are on a slower pipeline than regular updates, which is why they have not gone live yet, but they're already implemented.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:31 pm**

I consider the greyed out name to mean that that character looks like they're sneaking. If I see that I imagine they are crawling along trying to stay out of sight, and not walking normally. Without the grey, people would just be able to stealth all over the place and no one would think they're weirdos

Posted: **Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:21 pm**

Regarding for grey playerlist, Silvard gave perfect answer. There is fix incoming.

Also many thanks not only for answer, but for your hard work to make these work at all.

As for 'other measures to make the real identity harder to figure out using OOC methods', can we expect explained them when update comes up, or are those some undisclosed changes?

Posted: **Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:35 pm**

It will be in the update notes.

Posted: **Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:34 pm**

Hazard wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:31 pm I consider the greyed out name to mean that that character looks like they're sneaking. If I see that I imagine they are crawling along trying to stay out of sight, and not walking normally. Without the grey, people would just be able to stealth all over the place and no one would think they're weirdos

A case could be made against it with the presumption that my character is walking with quiet steps, not creepily crawling along corners. And WYSIWYG supports quiet pacing, anyway.

Arelith

Why is there so much OOC information handled

Why is there so much OOC information handled

Re: Why is there so much OOC information handled

Re: Why is there so much OOC information handled

Re: Why is there so much OOC information handled

Re: Why is there so much OOC information handled

Re: Why is there so much OOC information handled

Re: Why is there so much OOC information handled

Re: Why is there so much OOC information handled

Re: Why is there so much OOC information handled

Re: Why is there so much OOC information handled

Re: Why is there so much OOC information handled

Re: Why is there so much OOC information handled

Re: Why is there so much OOC information handled

Re: Why is there so much OOC information handled

Re: Why is there so much OOC information handled

Re: Why is there so much OOC information handled

Re: Why is there so much OOC information handled

Re: Why is there so much OOC information handled