Arelith

Having played on the server for a year and a half my own attitude regarding mental attributes has changed dramatically. I was used to other servers where negative mental attributes were strongly policed, but on arelith it seems to be completely disregarded. Mechanically optimized builds require 8 int/cha in many cases, while 14 int is practically a must for both skill points and improved expertise. I am interested on how the player base as a whole feels about, and approaches this. I only recently noticed how much my own views on this have chanced since playing, when I was reading server rules on another server.

For me, my view is that 8 cha/wis when they are present dont represent more then just a single negative modifier rank, and taken alone, not crippling, or character defining in anyway.

Yeah you're pretty much right. I'd be happy to roleplay low Cha or low Int or low Wis, but I'm not happy to do that when everyone else is optimizing and minmaxing and ignoring their low mental attributes. I don't know whether that's a shame or not, but all the minmaxing and optimizing seems a bit miserable to me.

Once enough people are powerbuilding there's no point in doing an RP build unless you're happy joining the minority of gimped builds who get merrily kicked around by optimized builds in PVP. Arelith seems to have a particular obsession with powerbuilding and optimizing, compared to other persistent worlds. I find this very strange indeed, when it's actually the other persistent worlds - EFU and PotM come to mind - that have the harshest penalties for PVP death.

But there are people who really enjoy tinkering with mechanics and builds. I've been surprised to learn how many characters started off with the player choosing an optimized build they want to play, and then choosing a character to fit that build. Maybe that's the right way round to do it!

I think there should be some acknowledgement of your stats in your character concept, but by no means should it be character defining. I'd honestly much rather interact a well rounded and fun character than one that insisted on building their concept entirely off the stat block.

It's a useful guide, if you're looking for starting points to build a character. But there's a lot more to a person than that.

In a vaguely related vein there's the old 'How do we, as average players, RP wizards with godlike levels of intellect, or monks with wisdom scores high enough that the Pope would nod and hand over his hat?' question. And we really can't, in a lot of cases. Not a dynamic environment like Arelith. I prefer to take stat blocks as nudges, rather than chains.

MoreThanThree wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:21 pm Transcend the Stormwind Fallacy, RP-Builders.

Right, but I'm not saying powerbuilders can't RP. I'm not even saying that powerbuilders are doing it wrong. Since coming to Arelith, all my builds are powerbuilt. Because they have to be. That post is about tabletop pen and paper, where you're playing cooperatively in a small group. In a large world of PCs with PVP enabled, if you build for RP you are going to be squished whenever there is PVP. And since PVP often determines RP, you are voluntarily disadvantaging yourself and your character.

You don't really have a choice about accurately reflecting character in mental attributes, when every other player is powerbuilding and ignoring the dump stat. If you put a few points in Cha or Wis to reflect your character, you have pointlessly gimped yourself.

I tend to view stats through a lens of how severely their modifiers manage to affect any related rolls. 8 INT is only a -1 to INT skill checks, and doesn’t impose a significant difference in the capabilities between an 8 or 10 int character (number of overall skillpoints aside).

So an 8 int character might be a little slow, but I don’t think it would be severe enough to prove noticeable until after an extended or several extended interactions.

The same for the other mental stats; 8 wis, they’re perhaps a little off in their own little world from time to time and prone to absent-mindedness, but not so significantly as to leave them unable to function.

Face wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:35 pm Right, but I'm not saying powerbuilders can't RP. I'm not even saying that powerbuilders are doing it wrong. Since coming to Arelith, all my builds are powerbuilt. Because they have to be. That post is about tabletop pen and paper, where you're playing cooperatively in a small group. In a large world of PCs with PVP enabled, if you build for RP you are going to be squished whenever there is PVP. And since PVP often determines RP, you are voluntarily disadvantaging yourself and your character.

You don't really have a choice about accurately reflecting character in mental attributes, when every other player is powerbuilding and ignoring the dump stat. If you put a few points in Cha or Wis to reflect your character, you have pointlessly gimped yourself.

This strikes me as a bit weird. If you want to make a charismatic character there's nothing stopping anyone from building a battlebard or brycer instead of a weaponmaster. There's never a point where one has to make a suboptimal character for RP choices unless they're actively admitting that yeah, maybe jimmy mc'charisma would've been a better paladin than barbarian but decided to become one anyway because X, in which case cool but that was a choice to be made much like choosing to be one-armed cuts you off from shields and dual-wielding. (Something that would also make you weaker in PvP, as makes sense.)

So, no. There's nothing stopping you from being optimal and having the mental stats you want, you just can't have that and also a build not made for it.

As for the roleplay of mental stats, I always find there's a lot of people who assume that other people are doing it wrong or not representing their mental attributes correctly, but when grilled on it can't ever point out a concrete example whom they've talked to enough to know the quirks and personalities of that character for sure. I think the best way to approach the subject is to just concern yourself with how you want to make your own character feel the most well represented and let other people concern themselves with their characters.

There's nothing stopping you from being optimal and having the mental stats you want, you just can't have that and also a build not made for it

I feel like you're agreeing with me more than you think here

I fully agree with you on the second point. I've heard people say that your character can't be physically attractive unless they're High Cha, or ugly unless they're Low Cha. That seems silly to me.

I will admit that my own views have changed slightly over the years. Regardless of how people roleplay their stats, I sincerely believe Charisma and Wisdom are in need of some love, when it comes to certain RP boons.

For example, a high Charisma modifier could help a candidate running for leadership in a settlement with giving them extra votes equal to their Charisma modifier (or similar).

If Mentoring RP ever became more realized in terms of mechanics (giving away a pool of your adventuring experience points to your apprentice, to name one example), a high Wisdom modifier would be help the mentor effectively mentor their student. Or perhaps it could play a role in how many active students they are able to have.

Those are just two examples of how to encourage people to take higher mental stats. I have made builds with high INT that deviated from cookie-cutter builds, just so I could squeeze in two extra languages that my character could learn (and the rate of how fast they learn them and how well she understands them). It didn't completely destroy my character's build, but she certainly went down from best tier to pretty good tier.

If people are willing to sacrifice some power for high intelligence due to the Roleplay mechanics that follow, then surely we would see more people doing the same for Charisma and Wisdom. Right now as it stands, however, the two stats are absolutely useless in Roleplay. The DMs might smile and reward mental stats being roleplayed right, but in the long run - and in the mind of a power builder - it's not worth it. Unless you're playing casters that require those stats, might I add.

If you as an active roleplayer deem that having 12 Charisma instead of 10 or 8 is worth it to trade for some power, then of course, it is. I agree! I've always been in the mind that mental stats shouldn't be disregarded.
However, I've come to understand that the majority of people here are not like me. And that's okay. So, instead of trying to tell people to pretend like it is worth it, I have come to the conclusion that I would much rather see RP boons become realized -- and then people will start sacrificing some power for those sweet boons.

Having played at a 5th Edition D&D table for many months now, I have come to realize that this edition 3.5 of D&D (and Neverwinter Nights in general) is not very generous towards those who want to spread out their character. Min-maxing is very much rewarded, while picking up feats and stats that are great for character development in terms of RP, but not so great in combat, is very much punished. That's the fault of the system, not the fault of the players.

EDIT: I'd like to add that the devs are and have worked to make certain skills a bit more attractive. Persuade makes for better bounty-hunting negotiation, which certainly helps making an otherwise useless skill (again, not in my mind, but to most) a bit more useful. The same with Appraise, Perform, Bluff, and so forth. So I suppose Charisma isn't entirely useless, but still, I'm of the mind that both Charisma and Wisdom could use some RP-flavored power that has less to do with what's on your sheet and more with what you can do in the game world.

dude wtf i got low mental attributes irl

I believe you should play your character sheet. Personally, I love to rp low mental stats. It can get you into all kinds of rp situations. I don't see low mental stats being disregarded but perhaps I have been extremely lucky.


-S

I do not tend to roleplay my stats as doing so would suggest that every wizard is a genius and every fighter type could go toe to toe with Hercules. I do tend to roleplay whatever my primary stat is to some degree, it probably wouldn't make much sense to be a drooling fool who can barely pronounce common words yet somehow they can speak draconic well enough to cast spells, I guess.

Not every genius is good at expressing themselves, and not every idiot is a bumbling, drooling mess.

Obviously there will never be a point where everyone is told to RP their character sheet or else, so probably the best way to approach the matter is by enlightening people on just how fun it can be to have a character who doesn't have all the answers .. or whos answers are objectively stupid. There is humour in that, at the very least .. and at its most it can make your character seem three dimensional, which always helps build a bigger story.

I can confirm that my 8-cha weaponmaster was a better leader than any of my charisma-based characters, because leadership quality comes from leadership experience (from roleplay) instead of stats.

Charisma and Wisdom are the two trickiest attributes to roleplay, in my opinion. The exact nature of Charisma especially has been a subject of debate for as long as I can remember, every time it's brought up. I don't think that simply by having a -1 modifier in these stats we should be forced to roleplay a socially crippled fool. They're barely below average. Yes, they should definitely flavor your interactions a bit, but we probably shouldn't dictate to what degree. That seems like it'd only lead to less diverse characters.

Basically, it doesn't matter. Prioritize creating a convincing and compelling character -- so long as they aren't a Mary Sue, they'll probably be fine.

As an aside, I truly despise the term "RP build". All builds are RP builds, outside of ridiculous, impractical nonsense like Pun-Pun. This is a Role Playing Game. Seems like a needless distinction.

First of all I think most people will tell you that while stat differences and builds can certainly make a difference between experienced players, any build can work so long as you know what you're doing - even if you're sub-optimal, you can always work around that in PvP with enough preparation. The tools are at your disposal. Playing an "RP build" doesn't automatically mean you're bad at PvP - you're just bad if you don't know what you're doing. And I get the feeling that this stuff has less to do with power building and more to do with the fact that people just wanna have fun when they play, and they want to play fun and interesting characters.

As for mental traits, and expecting people to RP low mental traits... Keep in mind the fact that mental traits don't directly correlate to only one aspect of one's personality. Having low intelligence doesn't necessarily mean you're a drooling brainless idiot, it might just mean you're bad at retaining information and can't remember things very well. Having a low charisma may just mean you're physically unattractive, it doesn't mean you're unpleasant to talk to (hence why you can see CHA when you examine a PC). Having low wisdom... Well I don't know about this one, I haven't really thought of it, and from what I notice, INT & CHA are the ones people have a problem with anyways.

In my opinion, playing a smooth talker with High INT + Low CHA is perfectly acceptable, as is a High INT + Low CHA therapist type, because social and emotional intelligence are absolutely forms of intelligence - things learned over time and with experience. But in general, I think it's silly and a bit of overreach to expect people to play according to what YOU think their mental stats should look like. If they're a fun personality to interact with, just let it go. Have fun.

I get a nervous tic every time the Stormwing Fallacy is brought up as if it was divine justification that powerbuilding doesn't have a negative impact in the game.

Let me be flat in what I think:
Negative stats SHOULD NOT be the standard of building. There are five million ways to roleplay those stats, but if you plan to dump that charisma to a glorious 6 and play a social mastermind, that's where I get a little ticked off.

If you want to play a rounded character that can make mistakes, have their moments of great intellect/idiocy, then just set it to 10. That's what a normal person is, because I think it's a disservice to the nature of the game to blatantly ignore the stats for the sake of building. This is a roleplay server after all, and while it's pretty light and unrestricted these days, we should strive to maintain certain level of looseness with our builds, rather than aim for mechanical perfection.

Iceborn wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:32 pm I get a nervous tic every time the Stormwing Fallacy is brought up as if it was divine justification that powerbuilding doesn't have a negative impact in the game.

Powerbuilding is a virtue.

MoreThanThree wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:55 pm I can confirm that my 8-cha weaponmaster was a better leader than any of my charisma-based characters, because leadership quality comes from leadership experience (from roleplay) instead of stats.

Powerbuilding is a virtue.

At this point I'm starting to think you're trolling. Can my 8 Str cleric be the strongest of my characters if she roleplays a regimen of strength-based training and pushups?

Iceborn wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:32 pm Negative stats SHOULD NOT be the standard of building.

Perhaps, there was a time when powerbuilding was for powergamers - may I humbly postulate that it is long gone on Arelith.
Out of like 7-8 character concepts that excited and inspired me to play in the last year, by really having it all coming together, only 2 came out sub-optimal enough to be playable and not suck terribly, although I know how building works. I am at the stage of desperation where I begin to really consider damned sword-and-board WMs and clerics sometimes. Once you try building for fun - everything and its mother is restricted away, or requires a carry-friend who built for power. You can't defy the meta.

Face wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:05 am At this point I'm starting to think you're trolling. Can my 8 Str cleric be the strongest of my characters if she roleplays a regimen of strength-based training and pushups?

That's the thing though, you're compairing a physical stat, which has explicity coded and codified limits for how it impacts your character to a mental one, which does not. Every 10 STR character is going to be able to carry the same amount of weight and nothing can change that beyond increasing or decreasing STR.

Take charisma instead though, and you can have a bard with 40CHA that isn't charismatic at all because the player doesn't know how to be, and the opposite of a 8CHA WM that ends up being a great leader because he happens to be an interesting person who generates fun for people around him.

Mental stats are a guideline rather than a hard limit. A character with 8 INT but 33 lore might not be naturally smart but makes up for it with hard work and study, while a 22INT 0 lore character might be traditionally 'smart' but lacks the patience to learn things.

The game we take NWN from, D&D 3.0/3.5 is a wonderful setting where a 4CHA character can invest 30 ranks in leadership and still be a great leader of men because they put in hard work towards it, and a 4STR halfling can be an olympic swimmer because they put 30 ranks in swim. We can't do that in NWN except for a few select skills, a lot of which have very close to 0 mechanical reason to pick them (Persuade, Intimidate). But that doesn't mean we have to limit our thinking and imagination to the constraints of the engine. If you do that, you start ending up with stale, two-dimensional characters because you've thrown out half the tools in your toolbox and refuse to use the remaining ones for anything but the exact purpose the manual says they should be used in.

Face wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:05 am At this point I'm starting to think you're trolling. Can my 8 Str cleric be the strongest of my characters if she roleplays a regimen of strength-based training and pushups?

Another part about mental stats is that what constitutes a charismatic person and character tends to boil down to opinion.
Thankfully, the physical stats are based in measurable facts, and you're succumbing to Stormwind fallacy.
But sure, I won't put limits on your character bru.
See also:

Nitro wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:26 am Mental stats are a guideline rather than a hard limit. A character with 8 INT but 33 lore might not be naturally smart but makes up for it with hard work and study, while a 22INT 0 lore character might be traditionally 'smart' but lacks the patience to learn things.

The game we take NWN from, D&D 3.0/3.5 is a wonderful setting where a 4CHA character can invest 30 ranks in leadership and still be a great leader of men because they put in hard work towards it, and a 4STR halfling can be an olympic swimmer because they put 30 ranks in swim. We can't do that in NWN except for a few select skills, a lot of which have very close to 0 mechanical reason to pick them (Persuade, Intimidate). But that doesn't mean we have to limit our thinking and imagination to the constraints of the engine. If you do that, you start ending up with stale, two-dimensional characters because you've thrown out half the tools in your toolbox and refuse to use the remaining ones for anything but the exact purpose the manual says they should be used in.

Iceborn wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:32 pm I get a nervous tic every time the Stormwing Fallacy is brought up as if it was divine justification that powerbuilding doesn't have a negative impact in the game.

Let me be flat in what I think:
Negative stats SHOULD NOT be the standard of building. There are five million ways to roleplay those stats, but if you plan to dump that charisma to a glorious 6 and play a social mastermind, that's where I get a little ticked off.

If you want to play a rounded character that can make mistakes, have their moments of great intellect/idiocy, then just set it to 10. That's what a normal person is, because I think it's a disservice to the nature of the game to blatantly ignore the stats for the sake of building. This is a roleplay server after all, and while it's pretty light and unrestricted these days, we should strive to maintain certain level of looseness with our builds, rather than aim for mechanical perfection.

point buy along with strict positive stat requirements for feats as well as the balance of the game at epic levels inherently means negative stats will exist.

Iceborn wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:32 pm Negative stats SHOULD NOT be the standard of building. There are five million ways to roleplay those stats, but if you plan to dump that charisma to a glorious 6 and play a social mastermind, that's where I get a little ticked off.

Actually no, let me challenge you on this. There once was an orc by the name of Mudagog, who was warm and friendly to everyone around. He was a barbarian, as powerbuilt as can be. He founded an orcish state simply through the sheer roleplay that his player exuded. Should he have been penalized in any way for the creation of the Half Orc Camp?

I play my character sheet. It's more fun for me to play with weaknesses AND strengths, and I'd like to think it's more fun for those around me. I know I love when I meet a character who is terribly flawed in some way.

I don't believe there should be any right or wrong way to play your weaknesses or strengths. For example a low int character (6-8) cannot speak properly is pretty standard, but other than that I don't see anything else set in stone. Your low stats can be represented in any way you imagine. As long as they are represented you're doing a great job at roleplaying that character.

I don't think Arelith is the kind of place that will punish you for not playing your character sheet, but it does seem like the kind of place to reward you if you are. I would expect the rewards to come in the form of more people wanting to play with you, or raised RPR (if such a thing exists).

But at the end of the day, it's a very noob-friendly environment so you can do what you want and no one should be getting mad at you for it. You're free to RP your character how you want to. Just try to remember you don't need to win all the time. There is a lot of fun for everyone (including yourself) in losing, and this extends beyond PvP to social interactions and character flaws.