Arelith

As a monstrous scum and villain who does his living with the slavery business time to time, I got some good discussion OOC in the Scourge's discord about its system in the Arelith after we got some fresh captives last night and introduced them into this roleplay with their blessings.

While being the slave offers plenty of good roleplay opportunities, it also has some drawbacks and I'm not talking about being unable to buy a quarter or a shop.

First I really wish the surface slaves would get rights to take Underdark writs so they would not need to bother visiting the surface.
I know some of you will shout: "Well then surfacers would get hands on all the writs!"
Well the easy solution would be that slave loses rights to do surface writs until freed but gets rights to do UD writs in return.
This way the fresh slave would not be left behind from his free friends when it comes into gathering exp and continue working by doing writs in the Underdark while spending more time deep down here.

This way they can continue to level up without getting awkward:
"Welp, I got enslaved by the big bad monster but when the Andunor dont notice, I visit the surface to do small milk delivery writs."
I've played with both slaves and slavers who have felt this being silly to their RP OOC.
Of course the challenge is how to notice the Sibayad and Sencliff slaves with this idea who might have no connection to the Andunor at all.

But this would spare the new slaves from the headache where they're turned away from most of the surface settlements with the threat of PvP as potential spies and assassins, blocking them out from doing writs. This can very feel annoying and frustrating to the collared players. As OOC note to you all, please at least allow collared to pick up and finish their writs before you ask them to leave.

Second, removing the collar should be free to the slave owner. There is no sense why it should cost lot of gold as far I'm aware.

I wish to add my personal tip to anyone who is interested to have their characters mixed with the Slavery RP.
Its important to remember that it always have at least two players. Both slave and owner, you two have responsibility to each other that both of you get the most positive experience out from this roleplay. Make some common houserules together, what is fine and where you put the limits. Stay in touch and also give the OOC freedom to tell each other if you're getting bored on the slavery and want to get freed, so you could work something out that makes sense IC without breaking the characters.

If your character just capture and sells slaves, you got responsibility to make sure that your captive is sold to someone who is active and trusted to handle such RP, as well make it clear what this deal include to the owner OOC.
Forget having a slave if the only reason is to see your own name on the collar and then leave the other die on boredom.
This also apply on you slave owners who plan to pass their servant to someone else.

Always remember to ask permission to collar and make sure to tell what it include, so they understand!
Tricking and forcing against their will is the very reason why the Slave RP has such negative reputation as some have used it to grief others!

So what you think? What feedback you have to offer and how would you improve the slavery to make it more positive than negative experience?

Having been on both sides, and just recently going hard as a slave, i've had some thoughts too. Slavery often isnt taken too seriously from an IC stance. They're more like little brothers or sisters you boss around cause you're the big bad sibling, and they better listen. Some folks do it well, dont get me wrong, but i think mechanics being put in place to foster higher quality to would be rad.

Let slaves do UD writs, no surface ones. Even if its just one or two a day.

Make it to where a slave can only be purchased by a citizen of the settlement they were clamped by. What about sibiyad you say? Yeah that should be a player run settlement. In the meantime since it isn't, id say just limit slave ownership to monster races, pirates, and outcasts only (and Harpers maybe). This will help cut down on surface spies posing as slaves (except by Harpers).

Slaves should incur a concentration penalty. -4 or thereabouts, to reflect their susceptibility to verbal abuse (taunt) and being beaten (concentration spell checks).

Im not sure about the removal of the collar by the owner. I could see that being sensible but I would create a level requirement. Something like, you can only release slaves who are lvl 22+. In this way it serves also as a sort of... "Okay you could probably kill me here soon, as a sign of respect, I offer freedom if you desire." It always struck me as weird when rebellious epic slaves played along and cowed to others, when realistically, they could fight their way to freedom if they really wanted to.

Towards that end, as another thread already suggested once before, adding something like a stun shock collar feature -command for slave owners to use, would lend some more severity to the collar.

Since you brought the topic up...
I have an issue with the number of slaves that don't really RP their slavery. I often see slaves acting like they are free people. It seems as though taking a slave collar is just an arrangement to allow access to the Hub portal, do some spying, learn undercommon and then go teach it to all your surface friends. When they buy their freedom they retain their access to the Hub portal. It appears that some surfacers get enslaved, not for the RP, but for the benefits.

I do agree with Petrifictus that slaves should be able to accept and complete UD writs. It seems unreasonable to except slaves, who are unwelcome in nearly every settlement to go back up to the Surface to do their writs. And let's face it, you don't usually take level 21 and up slaves. You grab them in the lower levels. The current set up just makes things unnecessarily difficult for the slave character.

I would like so see some guidelines on what is expected of slave RP and the player of the slave. We seem concerned with making sure players know that they can't be forced to take a slave collar, and that it's a serious commitment, but we don't seem to be discussing the expectations.

I don't think slaves should get access to UD writs, because not everyone slave is in the UD. I feel like Sibayad and Sencliff should have their own culture - and not only that, but it would further incentivise the behavior mentioned where surfacers who become slaves get all the benefits of the outcast status without much of the stigma or mechanical drawbacks once that slave collar gets removed. I am of the opinion that there should be slave-only writs, obtained by the slavemaster who collared them to begin with, that either don't grant gold or give the gold award to the master of the slave (and of course grant XP).

Blood on my Lips wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:28 pm When they buy their freedom they retain their access to the Hub portal. It appears that some surfacers get enslaved, not for the RP, but for the benefits.

I would like so see some guidelines on what is expected of slave RP and the player of the slave. We seem concerned with making sure players know that they can't be forced to take a slave collar, and that it's a serious commitment, but we don't seem to be discussing the expectations.

The former should definitely not be a thing. The latter, I also agree with. There are certainly well played slaves, but I've also seen a small number of not so well played slaves that seem to have missed the memo of what a slave is. These ones seem to be in the UD for the easy leveling before they buy their freedom and go to the surface.

Outcast was made unpurchasable, but it seems people adapt to seek convenience sometimes.

Ooh. That slave writ idea that grants gold into the master account seems like a rad idea, even if its a tiny amount. Sort of incentivizing the master to better equip and interact with the slave, so that they can continue being profitable. Even 1/4th normal gold amount, while full exp to the slave, would be cool. I feel like this would also go greatbwith requiring one to be a citizen of the locale they're purchasing slaves in. Lends more importance to the setlement system and keeps it relevant. Maybe settlement accounts get the same amount of gold, as part of their profit of the slaves' labor. Free labor boosting the economy.

A slave that can corpsebash his or her owner should be allowed to be free, as a master that is weaker than his or her slave does not deserve to pretend they should be able to control that slave. The weak should fear the strong.

For a place like the Underdark? I totally agree. That's why a shock collar is needed

MoreThanThree wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:19 am A slave that can corpsebash his or her owner should be allowed to be free, as a master that is weaker than his or her slave does not deserve to pretend they should be able to control that slave. The weak should fear the strong.

This would just result in 'kill the masters' style slave revolts constantly.

BegoneThoth wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:43 am This would just result in 'kill the masters' style slave revolts constantly.

Good.

MoreThanThree wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:19 am A slave that can corpsebash his or her owner should be allowed to be free, as a master that is weaker than his or her slave does not deserve to pretend they should be able to control that slave. The weak should fear the strong.

Hm.
No.

If all that matters to define the roles is who can corpsebash who, then I'm afraid you may have lost sight of what makes this a roleplaying game.

I'm seeing a resurgence in these common mistakes of perception since the EE came out. Simply because we can, it does not mean we should. It never means we should. Not in a game where all our interactions tether on an honor system to allow other players to have their own creative freedom. This is what restraint means; having the power, and choosing not to use it for the sake of furthering stories or respecting the integrity of the game.

A slave, regardless of power, should act warily in fear of the consequences, unless they are willing to sink down with the ship.
So unless you want to give the devs a reason to code words of command to literally paralyze slaves, I would advise you to review your stance.

Iceborn wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:08 am A slave, regardless of power, should act warily in fear of the consequences, unless they are willing to sink down with the ship.
So unless you want to give the devs a reason to code words of command to literally paralyze slaves, I would advise you to review your stance.

Y'all already got that for 500 GP

MoreThanThree wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:19 am A slave that can corpsebash his or her owner should be allowed to be free, as a master that is weaker than his or her slave does not deserve to pretend they should be able to control that slave. The weak should fear the strong.

This would only encourage more low quality RP that is entirely centered around powerbuilding and PvP. A slave is never only a slave because they are weak. Weak slaves are useless. If all it took for freedom was to kill your master, slavery wouldn't exist in lore or in the real world. Anyone can kill anyone, especially on a server where being a cookie-cutter level 30 build with BiS gear is the expected end-game for all characters.

A slave is controlled by many things. If you kill your master, I expect that slave is on the path to permadeath now, no? Why not? No one would ever buy a slave that is that bad and the rest of the entire slave-orientated society has no incentive to do anything except kill the bad slave.

Hazard wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:23 am If you kill your master, I expect that slave is on the path to permadeath now, no? Why not? No one would ever buy a slave that is that bad and the rest of the entire slave-orientated society has no incentive to do anything except kill the bad slave.

Or the society recenters itself on its new master, The Eternal Free One.

MoreThanThree wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:40 am

Hazard wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:23 am If you kill your master, I expect that slave is on the path to permadeath now, no? Why not? No one would ever buy a slave that is that bad and the rest of the entire slave-orientated society has no incentive to do anything except kill the bad slave.

Or the society recenters itself on its new master, The Eternal Free One.

I agree that having some shock effect on the collars would be neat to punish slaves that lack manners and discipline.
"Slaves only" - writs also sounds like a really good idea. Put those servants on good use to earn me some coin!

I think the collar should punish the slave if he/she attack the master, be it level drain, lose hit points into 1, etc.

Petrifictus wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:21 am I think the collar should punish the slave if he/she attack the master, be it level drain, lose hit points into 1, etc.

Once again, only if corpsebashing unruly masters frees competent slaves.

MoreThanThree wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:32 am

Petrifictus wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:21 am I think the collar should punish the slave if he/she attack the master, be it level drain, lose hit points into 1, etc.

Once again, only if corpsebashing unruly masters frees competent slaves.

I don't call the shots here, but I'm going to very confidentially predict that will never be the case.

MoreThanThree wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:21 am

Iceborn wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:08 am A slave, regardless of power, should act warily in fear of the consequences, unless they are willing to sink down with the ship.
So unless you want to give the devs a reason to code words of command to literally paralyze slaves, I would advise you to review your stance.

Y'all already got that for 500 GP

So.
You are saying that unless you can be mechanically wounded, you would refuse to display anything in the semblance of wariness?
I'm sorry if I'm Wonka'ing you here. But this is not... okay. The mechanics are not the experience, the mechanics are there to color the experience of the game.

Hey, since this is basically a suggestion thread I feel like adding my own version to fixx this system :

1st : Seperate the collars.
Sencliff, Andunor and Shibayad should each have their own kind of collars. I know, for some this might just add the issue of "but how does it matter if a plain steel collar that goes around your neck has been clamped on in place X or Y?" but the answer to that is simple.
Slaves are in the most basic of ways simple property to slavers. Sure, there can be more unique reasons for why you collar someone, like a personal grudge being repaid by collaring your nemesis (of course OOCly agreed upon by both parties ) but in the end slaves are just that. Property.
Why wouldn't the clamps-men of Shibayad and Sencliff mark their clamps? I see it be rather unreasonable of them to not do that. Why would a slaver of Shibayad have their slaves be downgraded to muck and dirt out of Andunor in the eyes of the people? After all quality assurance is one of the reasons why we came up with the "Made in XYZ" mark on products we produce IRL.

2nd : Absolutely let people accept writs where they have been enslaved.
I think this speaks for itself and has been explained thoroughly by previous posters.

I already opened a topic on slavery some times ago, which leaded to minor changes.

As from what I have come to think to :

1) Masters should have more power on their slaves. The idea of a collar that can weaken the slaves makes sense, as a way of control.

2) Masters should be allowed to remove a collar without paying gold. It opens to a lot of RP. For instance, as a slave, RPing taking your master hostage would actually make sense, to force him to remove the collar. From an RP view, if you just behead someone, well, it doesn't remove you collar in any ways.
And if your master is totally ignoring any possibility of freeing you despite RP, then I think that's to be reported and handled under the "Be Nice" rule.
It'll also open possibility for allies to actually ambush the master etc, without leading to idiotic situations where for instance you'd have the master captured and jailed but the guy is like "I don't have 500k".
I don't think a level requirement is needed, but even with such it would be a huge step forward.

3) Collars should absolutely be separated. If you are collared by Andunor, get Andunorians writs. By Sencliff, get Sencliff writs. By Sibayad, get Sibayad writs.
Each settlements should probably also have its own freeing quest added.

4) I've suggesting putting a long serie of group-quests to free slaves on the Surface. The master could be notified of the progress with some probabilities so that he can step in and try to counter the effort too. Quest should have to be triggered by the slave himself, that meaning, if he wants to be freed. (So that slaves that don't want to be and want to keep the cool RP don't get bothered).

I might have forgotten a lot of points or nuances, this's just some of the things I gathered from last thread.

Iceborn wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:43 am

MoreThanThree wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:21 am

Iceborn wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:08 am A slave, regardless of power, should act warily in fear of the consequences, unless they are willing to sink down with the ship.
So unless you want to give the devs a reason to code words of command to literally paralyze slaves, I would advise you to review your stance.

Y'all already got that for 500 GP

So.
You are saying that unless you can be mechanically wounded, you would refuse to display anything in the semblance of wariness?
I'm sorry if I'm Wonka'ing you here. But this is not... okay. The mechanics are not the experience, the mechanics are there to color the experience of the game.

He's referring to the slave caller. Which effectively is a 500gp effect to make one slave completely helpless as they're teleported into an inescapable pit in a no-magic area.

And speaking of improving slavery, make it so the owner can choose whether anyone can use the slave caller on their slave, or just themselves. It's rather annoying to be summoned by some rando out of the blue without warning when you're mid RP/dungeon just because they wanted service X right now.

Nitro wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:18 am He's referring to the slave caller. Which effectively is a 500gp effect to make one slave completely helpless as they're teleported into an inescapable pit in a no-magic area.

What did he think I meant?

Nitro wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:18 am And speaking of improving slavery, make it so the owner can choose whether anyone can use the slave caller on their slave, or just themselves. It's rather annoying to be summoned by some rando out of the blue without warning when you're mid RP/dungeon just because they wanted service X right now.

>slave
>expecting freedom

Does it make sense to you that some rando can yank you away from your owner in the middle of doing something with you without your owner having any say about it?

Yes, it's called theft. The owner responds by defending his property.