Arelith

I'd like to hear opinions on the current state of SD and what could be done to improve the class. It's always been one of my favourite to play in NWN (even though I haven't played one in years), but I do feel like it's fallen behind a lot compared to many other classes. In PvE they are mind blowingly fun and effective but in PvP I just don't feel like they can hold their own or pose much of a threat.

Of course there are exceptions, depending on build and you can always pull of something clever with UMD and traps, but I'm accrediting that to the rogue dip, as SD doesn't actually get a lot of skills and rogues do it far better.

There are some pretty PvP viable builds but they only have small SD investments, and for discussing the class itself I'd like to focus on the kinds of builds that will try to make the most out of what is mechanically offered to the SD. I'm talking stuff like 17 SD levels + Epic Shadow Lord feat.

One thing that's suggested a lot is to put Shadow Daze on a cooldown. You can get that DC very high (42ish?) with full SD investment, but you're going to be very weak in many other ways and it's only once a day, and can be defended against by a cheap potion.

I feel like their AB is very low after a full investment and they rely too much on a summon rather than their own abilities, but the summon is amazing and a lot of fun so I'm not complaining.

Another thing about the summon, its hide/ms is terrible. I think it should match the final hide/ms of the SD.

Just brainstorming. Anyone else have ideas or opinions on the SD? Keen to hear stuff because I don't hear a lot about the class outside of dips!

I think if the class is to be made more PVP viable it needs to be toned down in PVE. I do like the class but I'm almost embarrassed to play mine since you can burn through content so easily with the shadow out.

Sea Shanties wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:44 am I think if the class is to be made more PVP viable it needs to be toned down in PVE. I do like the class but I'm almost embarrassed to play mine since you can burn through content so easily with the shadow out.

I feel like that's true, until it isn't. When the shadow is out and functional you're totally right, you just burn through most PvE (if your AB is high enough to hit. Which is not always the case with a heavy investment.) But then there are times when NPCs use summons which will ignore your shadow and hit you directly, usually this is GG, and the times when an NPC uses an AoE effect in which case you're probably stuffed too. Then there's spell spam that your shadow can't avoid and it dies very quickly, leaving you to try and run and hope your opponent doesn't have permanent true seeing.

In some situations/dungeons the SD can be very OP but then in others it can be totally ineffective. It might be because a SD relies entirely on their summon and sometimes that mechanic just doesn't work.

Idea? Nerfing the shadow, but giving all what is taken from the shadow to the SD might help balance things out, maybe? This might make them less godly in PvE (when they are) and more survivable in situations where they seem useless (above mentioned, and PvP).

Or maybe they just don't need PvP viability and can be given more things to play to their strengths. Greater hide/ms bonus and movement speed when stealthed? This could be a fun concept where they're not very threatening but they're incredibly difficult to catch!

I'm going to roll one up right now and see how it all feels and plays out. I'll write ideas in my journal as I go along.

I've been waiting for the suggestion thread to open up, because I've got what I hope to be a lot of fun ideas regarding synergy between Shadow Dancer, and a few other classes (mostly Shadow Mage, Pale Masters, and Warlock).

I'll share the SD related ideas:

To start with, I would agree it ought to be toned down for PvE. I think the fix for this is pretty simple though, disable the ability for the shadow to -guard. Once that happens, you're just a stealthy blackguard who doesn't hit as hard. With the help of usual summons strategies and clever HiPS'ing, this can still totally work to manage aggro and keep the SD alive during PvE content, even if it does become more challenging.



As for the rest? The could really use some love.

Shadow Daze at level 1, and have it jump the SD to target.
At a certain level or feat (like level 10 or linking it to the Shadow Lord feat), letting the Shadow Dancer teleport to the target of their Shadow Daze. Also, granting Shadow Daze at level 1, because currently level 1 sucks for SD's. You literally get nothing. Same way you see the Malar panthers jump at a target, or how bolts of teleportation work. 'Shadow' Jump to target.

Bonus CL's, and warlock synergy
I feel like Shadow Dancer should also probably give +1 CL every 2 levels, just to synergize better for all casters, and Shadow Mages as well, so they don't have to necessarily have the Shadow present; it just helps the shadow mage more to have it present. Also counting that CL bonus towards Eldritch Blast, and half your SD levels counting as Bard levels for the purpose of Eldritch Blast damage. Shadow Dancer is a great aesthetic for warlocks, and helps fill the niche for Feylocks. It helps shake up the meta, as well, instead of the typical CON Epic DR warlock, as now stealth has become an attractive option. At this rate, even if you were a melee focused SD warlock split (14/16), your warlock blast damage would be capped at 9d6+9, which rather pales to what an archer with an assembly template can do.

Shadow Mage - Shadow Dancer, Synergy
So step it up for Shadow Mages, giving them Shadow Daze on cooldown when they take SD levels, thus when and if they qualify for the teleport aspect, they can do that on a cooldown by extension. As well, since SD is such a terrible choice for shadow mages despite it being granted to them for free, some additional buffs: A slow road of sacrificing spell-slots (less mage levels) for increased efficacy. The more SD levels they have, grant the mage Self-Concealment when standing near their Shadow. Something like 10% per 3 levels, meaning at 13 Shadow Dancer levels (a point at which you've completely sacrificed any hope for Epic Spell Foci, or Epic Spells), they'd have 50% concealment when near their shadow--which means scry immune. Likewise, grant increases to the mage's DC at certain SD level intervals. Something like, another +1 at level 9 (thus allowing the prospective mage a SINGLE epic spell / foci feat), then again at each odd SD level. This means they can become very potent, but anything beyond 9 SD levels means the mage has sacrificed any qualifications for Epic Spell Foci, Epic Spells, and additional spell-slots. Less versatility and epic boons, but more potency. This has been mentiond before, too, but at (let's say SD level 7, 9, then 11) let them cast Shadow Conj., Greater Shadow Conj., and Shades unlimited. Last but not least, maybe at 10 SD levels, give shadow mages a small CL buff against being dispelled along with no longer requiring food or water. This last bit is inspired by the Shadowcaster from 3.5’s Tome of Magic.

CosmicOrderV wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:48 amTo start with, I would agree it ought to be toned down for PvE. I think the fix for this is pretty simple though, disable the ability for the shadow to -guard.

I don't see how that would be possible without a huge re-balance/overhaul of the entire class. That's the one thing they have going for them. It would need to be replaced by something nearly as good. The way I've been playing SDs it would make them entirely useless and not even exaggerating. No AC, low AB, low HP. I don't think they'd be playable at all. It would just be a very bad rogue with no skills.

I'm talking 17+ levels of SD with Epic Shadow Lord here, not dips. I really like your ideas for dips and synergy though! They sound fun.

I have to agree on guard. It's interesting, no other class or spell summons will auto-guard you. It's very powerful. So much so that it enables strength-based shadowdancers who can pretty much disregard AC in PVE and still do ridiculously well. A shadowdancer would still be okay without it if the Arelith-enhanced shadow wasn't weakened otherwise but they'd have to be much more cagey in the way they build and played.

PVP wise, shadow daze on a reasonable cooldown seems a natural. I'd suggest sharing some rogue enhancements like the damage boost when attacking out of stealth and movement speed bonus when stealthing, maybe some of those things could stack with rogue levels (but not share all rogue abilities of course.) I think they should be able to sneak attack whether the shadow is near or not, just progressing slower than a rogue would (like, every 3 levels maybe.) Being able to castdarkness on cooldown like assassins seems appropriate too. Also, as an RP boost I think they should not leave tracks when stealthing.

Just thoughts based on playing one strength and one dex-based. Not saying this is stuff that HAS to be changed. But I do get a bit of a Hunter in World of Warcraft vibe (at least, from back when I played last decade) where PVE is super easy and maybe that needs to be looked at, as fun as it is to breeze through stuff my other characters struggle with.

How about giving SD’s the choice between buffing themselves and having a shadow?

Increase the duration of Shadow Evade to 1 hour/level and allow it to grant a certain fraction of the shadow’s (concealment and DR) progression - but make the feat unsummon the shadow when used, and dispel it as soon as the shadow is summoned.

Shadow Evade could also grant the SD half the sneak attack dice they’d get with the shadow out.

This change would preserve their PvE viability while making SDs more survivable in PvP and granting them an “ohno”-button in case a PvE encounter goes downhill.

Kalopsia wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:21 am How about giving SD’s the choice between buffing themselves and having a shadow?

Increase the duration of Shadow Evade to 1 hour/level and allow it to grant a certain fraction of the shadow’s (concealment and DR) progression - but make the feat unsummon the shadow when used, and dispel it as soon as the shadow is summoned.

Shadow Evade could also grant the SD half the sneak attack dice they’d get with the shadow out.

This change would preserve their PvE viability while making SDs more survivable in PvP and granting them an “ohno”-button in case a PvE encounter goes downhill.

That is a very cool idea. I would've loved something like that on my SD back in Ye Olden Times

Kalopsia wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:21 am How about giving SD’s the choice between buffing themselves and having a shadow?

Increase the duration of Shadow Evade to 1 hour/level and allow it to grant a certain fraction of the shadow’s (concealment and DR) progression - but make the feat unsummon the shadow when used, and dispel it as soon as the shadow is summoned.

Shadow Evade could also grant the SD half the sneak attack dice they’d get with the shadow out.

This change would preserve their PvE viability while making SDs more survivable in PvP and granting them an “ohno”-button in case a PvE encounter goes downhill.

Yeah, that sounds neat :3

CosmicOrderV wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:48 am I've been waiting for the suggestion thread to open up, because I've got what I hope to be a lot of fun ideas regarding synergy between Shadow Dancer, and a few other classes (mostly Shadow Mage, Pale Masters, and Warlock).

I'll share the SD related ideas:

To start with, I would agree it ought to be toned down for PvE. I think the fix for this is pretty simple though, disable the ability for the shadow to -guard. Once that happens, you're just a stealthy blackguard who doesn't hit as hard. With the help of usual summons strategies and clever HiPS'ing, this can still totally work to manage aggro and keep the SD alive during PvE content, even if it does become more challenging.



As for the rest? The could really use some love.

Shadow Daze at level 1, and have it jump the SD to target.
At a certain level or feat (like level 10 or linking it to the Shadow Lord feat), letting the Shadow Dancer teleport to the target of their Shadow Daze. Also, granting Shadow Daze at level 1, because currently level 1 sucks for SD's. You literally get nothing. Same way you see the Malar panthers jump at a target, or how bolts of teleportation work. 'Shadow' Jump to target.

Bonus CL's, and warlock synergy
I feel like Shadow Dancer should also probably give +1 CL every 2 levels, just to synergize better for all casters, and Shadow Mages as well, so they don't have to necessarily have the Shadow present; it just helps the shadow mage more to have it present. Also counting that CL bonus towards Eldritch Blast, and half your SD levels counting as Bard levels for the purpose of Eldritch Blast damage. Shadow Dancer is a great aesthetic for warlocks, and helps fill the niche for Feylocks. It helps shake up the meta, as well, instead of the typical CON Epic DR warlock, as now stealth has become an attractive option. At this rate, even if you were a melee focused SD warlock split (14/16), your warlock blast damage would be capped at 9d6+9, which rather pales to what an archer with an assembly template can do.

Shadow Mage - Shadow Dancer, Synergy
So step it up for Shadow Mages, giving them Shadow Daze on cooldown when they take SD levels, thus when and if they qualify for the teleport aspect, they can do that on a cooldown by extension. As well, since SD is such a terrible choice for shadow mages despite it being granted to them for free, some additional buffs: A slow road of sacrificing spell-slots (less mage levels) for increased efficacy. The more SD levels they have, grant the mage Self-Concealment when standing near their Shadow. Something like 10% per 3 levels, meaning at 13 Shadow Dancer levels (a point at which you've completely sacrificed any hope for Epic Spell Foci, or Epic Spells), they'd have 50% concealment when near their shadow--which means scry immune. Likewise, grant increases to the mage's DC at certain SD level intervals. Something like, another +1 at level 9 (thus allowing the prospective mage a SINGLE epic spell / foci feat), then again at each odd SD level. This means they can become very potent, but anything beyond 9 SD levels means the mage has sacrificed any qualifications for Epic Spell Foci, Epic Spells, and additional spell-slots. Less versatility and epic boons, but more potency. This has been mentiond before, too, but at (let's say SD level 7, 9, then 11) let them cast Shadow Conj., Greater Shadow Conj., and Shades unlimited. Last but not least, maybe at 10 SD levels, give shadow mages a small CL buff against being dispelled along with no longer requiring food or water. This last bit is inspired by the Shadowcaster from 3.5’s Tome of Magic.

I thought default SD had a shadow jump ability that was like a short range dimension door, or maybe that was just on the myth drannor server years ago.

perhaps like the teleport command with gsf transmutation, the Shadow Dancer could get a doorway to the shadowplane where they have bound themselves

Ebonstar wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:34 pm

CosmicOrderV wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:48 am I've been waiting for the suggestion thread to open up, because I've got what I hope to be a lot of fun ideas regarding synergy between Shadow Dancer, and a few other classes (mostly Shadow Mage, Pale Masters, and Warlock).

I'll share the SD related ideas:

To start with, I would agree it ought to be toned down for PvE. I think the fix for this is pretty simple though, disable the ability for the shadow to -guard. Once that happens, you're just a stealthy blackguard who doesn't hit as hard. With the help of usual summons strategies and clever HiPS'ing, this can still totally work to manage aggro and keep the SD alive during PvE content, even if it does become more challenging.



As for the rest? The could really use some love.

Shadow Daze at level 1, and have it jump the SD to target.
At a certain level or feat (like level 10 or linking it to the Shadow Lord feat), letting the Shadow Dancer teleport to the target of their Shadow Daze. Also, granting Shadow Daze at level 1, because currently level 1 sucks for SD's. You literally get nothing. Same way you see the Malar panthers jump at a target, or how bolts of teleportation work. 'Shadow' Jump to target.

Bonus CL's, and warlock synergy
I feel like Shadow Dancer should also probably give +1 CL every 2 levels, just to synergize better for all casters, and Shadow Mages as well, so they don't have to necessarily have the Shadow present; it just helps the shadow mage more to have it present. Also counting that CL bonus towards Eldritch Blast, and half your SD levels counting as Bard levels for the purpose of Eldritch Blast damage. Shadow Dancer is a great aesthetic for warlocks, and helps fill the niche for Feylocks. It helps shake up the meta, as well, instead of the typical CON Epic DR warlock, as now stealth has become an attractive option. At this rate, even if you were a melee focused SD warlock split (14/16), your warlock blast damage would be capped at 9d6+9, which rather pales to what an archer with an assembly template can do.

Shadow Mage - Shadow Dancer, Synergy
So step it up for Shadow Mages, giving them Shadow Daze on cooldown when they take SD levels, thus when and if they qualify for the teleport aspect, they can do that on a cooldown by extension. As well, since SD is such a terrible choice for shadow mages despite it being granted to them for free, some additional buffs: A slow road of sacrificing spell-slots (less mage levels) for increased efficacy. The more SD levels they have, grant the mage Self-Concealment when standing near their Shadow. Something like 10% per 3 levels, meaning at 13 Shadow Dancer levels (a point at which you've completely sacrificed any hope for Epic Spell Foci, or Epic Spells), they'd have 50% concealment when near their shadow--which means scry immune. Likewise, grant increases to the mage's DC at certain SD level intervals. Something like, another +1 at level 9 (thus allowing the prospective mage a SINGLE epic spell / foci feat), then again at each odd SD level. This means they can become very potent, but anything beyond 9 SD levels means the mage has sacrificed any qualifications for Epic Spell Foci, Epic Spells, and additional spell-slots. Less versatility and epic boons, but more potency. This has been mentiond before, too, but at (let's say SD level 7, 9, then 11) let them cast Shadow Conj., Greater Shadow Conj., and Shades unlimited. Last but not least, maybe at 10 SD levels, give shadow mages a small CL buff against being dispelled along with no longer requiring food or water. This last bit is inspired by the Shadowcaster from 3.5’s Tome of Magic.

I thought default SD had a shadow jump ability that was like a short range dimension door, or maybe that was just on the myth drannor server years ago.

perhaps like the teleport command with gsf transmutation, the Shadow Dancer could get a doorway to the shadowplane where they have bound themselves

That WAS Myth Drannor. I played there too It was awesoooome.

A simpler solution for making them viable in PvP would be to have the shadow also give +AB with scaling p/shadow hit die. This wouldn't do anything to nerf them in PvE, but would at least them land hits on players.. I don't see an abundance of shadow dancers TBH I barely see any, and there are many more OP classes I can think of.

Reminder that I'm talking about heavy investment into SD here, I know there's ways to get high AB while just dipping SD.

Oh jeez ... this now?

I think I'll just add my spice to this pile since I've been actively playing a SD in the recent months.


Let's clear up what the SD currently provides on Arelith :
1st : One of the prestige classes without any RPR-, reward- or applicationrequirements.
2nd : RP flavor.
3rd : A bonus of +1 to hide per SD level.
4th : SD's Shadow is a neat PvE tank and enables you to solo a lot of writs and dungeons later on.
5th : Usefull in combat buffs with enough levels invested into that class (Shadow Evade's scaling, Epic Shadowlord)
6th : Access to Hide in Plain Sight.

Now here's the feedback to each of the previously listed points :
1st : In my opinion it's ridiculous that every dex based rogue I see these days also somehow has an affinity to the Shadow Plane or learned somewhere to master the shadows and "dance" in them. I've been advocating for locking the SD behind SOMETHING to stop the constant flood of new SDs popping up ever since I've visited the Horde's camp and was greeted by four half orc barbarians, three of them having a shadow out. Arelith, as a RP focused server, seems to have a rather loose control over one of the more "rare" prestige classes in the setting of DnD and appareantly it's okay for everyone being a SD and having perfect control over such a rare gift while we lock RDDs and Shifters behind big hurdles.
No, I don't want to see it locked behind something because I want to be oh so special with my SD. I want them to be locked because the current feeling of every 4th character around a certain settlement being an SD is breaking my immersion.
(No offense to anyone in particular btw who feels like I'm adressing them with this point)

2nd : The RP flavor is great. Especially after picking up Epic Shadowlord you can do lots of mindgames with other players (unless they suddenly decide to metagame you and instantly recognize your perfect shadowcopy of yourself as an outsider somehow)

3rd : The bonus is neat. I still don't quite understand why rogue and SD levels don't additively count towards unlocking bonus sneaking speed as SDs are supposedly "master sneaks" ... but I'll adress that in a future suggestion thread. Once they're back to business again >_>

4th : I never understood why this is even a thing. I would love to hear what the reason, from whoever came up with Arelith's version of the SD, for why the SD's shadow is such an absolute unit when it comes to tanking in PvE (that also guards you). I can come up with a reason of my own which'd be "to let the SD have an easier time when leveling" but that's pure gameplay without much of an afterthought it feels like. Also the aspect of the shadow being such a good tank for the SD probably makes the team consider any decisions about the SD twenty times over.

5th : There's another problem.The two words "in combat". Sure, SDs get quite a few combat related feats and tricks in the pen and paper version of DnD (like covering their own blades in shadow, making them deal more damage) but I think there was an oportunity that got wasted during the conception of Arelith's SD. As a master sneak my character still loudly chants as he covers himself in shadows or summons his Shadowclone. Also there's the fact that even the combat related changes feel rather incomplete. Why does a shadow not copy the SD's Hide and Move Silently skills after picking up the Epic Shadowlord feat (therefore making it basically impossible to sneak with the shadow out), why does the shadow not pick up other combat related feats the SD picks up and what's the reasoning behind the shadow not copying the SD's cloak or the appearance of the weapon's essence?
So many questions, so few answers.

6th : HiPS is fine as it is even tho I'd argue to move it further up and not let people have access to such a neat tool after only 5 levels of SD.


EDIT : About the topic of raising the SD's AB ... no. Don't. There are other classes you can pick up if you want to have a high AB. SD's shouldn't be about hitting things reliably and hard, they should be about using shadows and a bit of trickery to their own advantage.