Arelith

I know the spell shades has a few functions, but could Shadow summons see some love? They are actually super weak and it would be neat for Shadow mages to have more versatility with the summons, have them be more powerful for the class maybe?

They're a situational disabling tarpit targeting AC instead of saves. They're not meant to be a summon replacement.

They have crippling strike if I remember right. If your opponent is not properly warded that will keep lowering their Str until they cannot move.

I'm in OP's camp. The fact that shades genuinely are terrible basically means Conjuration or Necromancy are a /requirement/ for shadow mages to do any damage in a fight whatsoever. The fact that necromancy gets juiced obviously makes it an attractive option, of course, but I do sort of resent how laughably ineffective one ends up being without one or the other in their build. I had been under the assumption that Shades got a damage bonus based off of intelligence or something like that with investment in Illusion focii, but after seeing so many zeroes and ones popping up in combat as all their damage gets absorbed, I checked the wiki and saw I was mistaken, and I was very sad.

For the sake of comparison, since it was actually a little hard to find - the shadows don't even get a place among the other summon stat blocks - here's what we're complaining about:
- Shadow Stats: 10 Strength, 14 Dexterity, 5 Constitution, 6 Intelligence, 12 Wisdom, 13 Charisma
- Shadows Feats: Blind Fight, Crippling Strike, Improved Knockdown, Sneak Attack (+1d6)
- Shadow Skills: Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Spot
Shadow Properties: DR 5/+1, 50% Concealment + 10% / Illusion Focus, Undead Immunities
- Shadows come equipped with a random No Damage weapon
- Shadows level up to the caster's level using the Outsider class
- Shadows gain bonus AB equivalent to the caster's prime attribute bonus (e.g. a wizard with 20 intelligence would summon a shadow with an additional +5 AB)

The knockdown and crippling strike are nice features, but the core complaint on my part is that they do /no damage/ - 1d6 sneak attack is sort of a joke, and with only 10 STR, no damage weapons, and their only bonus damage coming from spell focii investment (+3 at best), every hit they land is getting absorbed in PvE. On top of that, they're made of glass with none of the cannon - they get eaten up FAST, even with that concealment and DR. Half the time I use the spell, the shades get munched well before their short duration runs out. Those facts together mean they need the caster supporting them from the sidelines, which is hilarious, because right now the shades are also bugged to start attacking the caster if they use an AoE on an enemy and the shades happen to be there. Haven't tested to see if they attack friends, because I really don't think there's a point in knowing. They suck to use as-is. No need to figure out if they suck any more than expected.

The assumption I was under was due to the fact that I was mistakenly told that shades get bonus magic damage based on your INT modifier. Something like that could be a step in the right direction, I still think.

magistrasa wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:49 pm I'm in OP's camp. The fact that shades genuinely are terrible basically means Conjuration or Necromancy are a /requirement/ for shadow mages to do any damage in a fight whatsoever.

I mean shadow mages get +2 DC to their necromancy spells so I feel like shouldn't the path lend itself to that already? I don't think the shades were ever intended to be a damaging component of the illusionist/shadowmage toolkit nor do I think they should be. They have their uses (one of which Kuma has made mention of) and perhaps the only buff I would suggest is some degree of buff against the counter play that exists against them?

Kuma wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:54 pm They're a situational disabling tarpit targeting AC instead of saves. They're not meant to be a summon replacement.

This and they're pretty potent additionally in that they're party friendly and persistent. (NEB isn't)

magistrasa wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:49 pm I'm in OP's camp. The fact that shades genuinely are terrible basically means Conjuration or Necromancy are a /requirement/ for shadow mages to do any damage in a fight whatsoever.

They're not trying to fill a regular summons niche, they're not competing with an ancient elemental, an EDK or mummy dust - or even Summon VI, what would be the point?

Shadows are also distinctly better (Not genuinely terrible) in PvP then an ancient elemental, which isn't bad for a 6th circle spell.

Shadowmages give up the direct-damage nukes of other arcane casters specifically for bigger DC vs death (/might as well be death) spells and a nice defensive tool in HIPS.

I would disagree that they are party friendly. Use an AoE around them and they attack everyone in party. In those regards they seem to be especially terrible. The fact that they are so terrible, and players of shadow mages are welcome to correct me if I am wrong, and Shades is actually amazing, really kind of shoehorns a Shadow Mage into Necromancy. Necromancy is awesome, don't get me wrong, but it's because of things like Shades that I wouldn't go Pure shadowmage. It's just my opinion that if you went pure shadow mage, it would be great for the flavor of the class if you could really utilize those shades effectively, and reliably. Their duration is also terrible. I'm not sure if it gets better if you have ESF conj, but I have heard from others who do it is not great.

This has been addressed by the team a few times since these changes were made.
Comparing them to other summons is simply illogical because they're not meant to be used the way other summons are.

The Shadows from the Shadow Conjuration line of spells are meant to be a distraction, a way to weaken enemies in lieu of having your summon dismissed, or a nuisance to enemies also in lieu of having your summon dismissed. That's it!
And they perform those roles amazingly. I can understand a Shadow Mage wanting to use shadows as regular summons, and frankly I would like to see a shadow line introduced as an option eventually, but preferably as an undead stream rather than from the Shadow Conjuration spells line.

Also consider that if a summonable shadow, that was on par with current summons, was an exclusive option to Shadow Mages then there would be inevitable meta gaming (no point denying it, it happens, plain and simple) and a character that's meant to keep their religious affiliations as secretive as possible is much more easily outed if they're ever spotted with this, which is very much a bad thing. (remember the "Use this scroll of Planar Binding to prove you're not EVIL!!" debacle?)

tl dr:
Shades shadows are meant to be used a specific way, and they do that job brilliantly.
At the same time a Shadow Stream for, maybe, undead would still be nice eventually!

Orian_666 wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:12 pmAlso consider that if a summonable shadow, that was on par with current summons, was an exclusive option to Shadow Mages then there would be inevitable meta gaming (no point denying it, it happens, plain and simple) and a character that's meant to keep their religious affiliations as secretive as possible is much more easily outed if they're ever spotted with this, which is very much a bad thing. (remember the "Use this scroll of Planar Binding to prove you're not EVIL!!" debacle?)

I actually wouldn't mind Shadow Mages getting longer durations on Shades and all the other Shadow summon spells, perhaps double or triple the duration only for Shadow Mages.

And yes, the metagaming would suck, but the balancing shouldn't be based off whether certain players will metagame or not.

I haven’t been able to test this recently, but as far as i know, shadow summons are still broken for Feylocks.
The summoned shadows are lacking all of the aforementioned bonuses by spell foci and CHA modifier.

I was told that’s due to scripting limitations, but perhaps, if the spell is adjusted at some point, some sort of CHA-independent scaling could be implemented for Feylocks (+1 Shadow AB per 2 Warlock levels?)

Illusion school mages could do with having some pets going for them in line with summons and necro, given that this game is geared towards long duration pets for mages to pve with. Doesn't have to be tied to shadow mages.

Given the shadows' roles as a harasser / distraction type mob, I imagine giving them more hit-points and something like, a chance to slow on hit vs Will Save (illusion and all), might at least help them fill that role better.