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Keen senses - Rogue? Ranger?
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:34 am
by CptJonas
Its just me, or anyone else find it little weird that Rogue gets Keen senses at lvl 10, and Rangers (who are literaly Scout class) dont?
No complains about giving it to rogues.....just thinking they should have it both or neither (Let it be just elven racial)...
Whats your look on this guys?
Re: Keen senses - Rogue? Ranger?
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:10 am
by Ebonstar
rangers are typically defined for wilderness or natural areas while a rogue works everywhere, thus they would be highly attuned to their locale
Re: Keen senses - Rogue? Ranger?
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:21 am
by CptJonas
Ebonstar wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:10 am
rangers are typically defined for wilderness or natural areas while a rogue works everywhere, thus they would be highly attuned to their locale
Actualy...as is my wiew on classes....Ranger is for defined for wilderness or natural areas while a rogue is for defined for indoors, cities, and civilized areas...
Re: Keen senses - Rogue? Ranger?
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:50 am
by Nitro
The reason rogue got keen senses, as far as I know, is because they are the trapfinding class and got it as a cookie so they don't need to go into search mode constantly to find traps to disarm. Something not quite as relevant for rangers.
Re: Keen senses - Rogue? Ranger?
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:02 am
by Rigela
It certainly could be nice for stealthy rangers to get some of the same buffs when in a nature area like their HiPS works, like faster stealth movement etc. But as it is does give rogues a very good place to work with.
Re: Keen senses - Rogue? Ranger?
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:58 pm
by Nobs
Give rogues hips then
Re: Keen senses - Rogue? Ranger?
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:41 pm
by CptJonas
Nobs wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:58 pm
Give rogues hips then
In cities and etc... I would 100% give it to them...
Re: Keen senses - Rogue? Ranger?
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:18 am
by The Kriv
Nobs wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:58 pm
Give rogues hips then
Trade off: Rogues get HiPS for "Interior" locations only.
Rangers get +1 Disable Trap for every (Ranger Level)/2 for an area that HiPS works for them (i.e. outside/natural areas) -this reflects the fact that RANGERS out in the wild can disable all those traps left outside by Mobs that they SHOULD be able to pretty easily disable (via setting off without setting them off on themselves) but don't get the bonus on Dungeoun-Crawl areas.
-would also enable Rangers to disable traps left by players IN THE WILDS more easily without it transferring to dungeon crawling scenarios.
Re: Keen senses - Rogue? Ranger?
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:10 pm
by Sockss
Keen senses is not particularly strong. It helps pretty much only if you're poorly positioned.
(When you stand still you're considered in detect mode.)
What are really strong are the spot/listen boosts rogue get, which should be cut down a little at least to put them at, or below, a rangers FE detect bonuses, imo.
Re: Keen senses - Rogue? Ranger?
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:49 pm
by CptJonas
Sockss wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:10 pm
Keen senses is not particularly strong. It helps pretty much only if you're poorly positioned.
(When you stand still you're considered in detect mode.)
What are really strong are the spot/listen boosts rogue get, which should be cut down a little at least to put them at, or below, a rangers FE detect bonuses, imo.
Quite true...I was bulding rogue last day, and I saw that bonuses and my jaw dropped down....They get better detection bonuses vs All then ranger gets vs FE...Thats just another problem on our list....
Re: Keen senses - Rogue? Ranger?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:29 am
by naturaly
Nobody can detect without keen senses. You need movement. Let me tell you it’s the finest elf bonus. That arelith gives it to rogues of all races is solid gold. Maybe it is way too much indeed if ranger get nothing.
Re: Keen senses - Rogue? Ranger?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:15 am
by Might-N-Magic
If anything, giving Keen Senses to Rogues has been terrible. There's no reason to even make any Elf rogue now since Human (and most other choices you can make) will all grant you a superior Rogue statistically.
Even worse was the evaluation of the "value" having Keen Senses already was worth. Being an Elf means you only get a lousy +2? Giving up my one racial ability that made my race worth picking was only a lousy +2 for recompense? And Rogues get it at such a low bar (level 10?!). Yeesh.
Some things should not be given away. No reason to make an Elf Rogue when Humans are so much better.
Re: Keen senses - Rogue? Ranger?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:26 am
by Sockss
naturaly wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:29 am
Nobody can detect without keen senses. You need movement.
The only time you need movement is if you are positioned poorly for a corner sneak. Or are significantly slower than a sneaker doing so; so you're fighting a high level monk (which you can motivate with positioning).
You categorically do not need keen senses to detect. It's a nice buffer if you're not very aware of positioning or you're fighting multiple sneakers that you've let surround you.
Re: Keen senses - Rogue? Ranger?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:28 am
by Sockss
Might-N-Magic wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:15 am
If anything, giving Keen Senses to Rogues has been terrible. There's no reason to even make any Elf rogue now since Human (and most other choices you can make) will all grant you a superior Rogue statistically.
Even worse was the evaluation of the "value" having Keen Senses already was worth. Being an Elf means you only get a lousy +2? Giving up my one racial ability that made my race worth picking was
only a lousy +2 for recompense? And Rogues get it at such a low bar (level 10?!). Yeesh.
Some things should
not be given away. No reason to make an Elf Rogue when Humans are so much better.
Statistically the best rogues are halflings and wild elves though.
Also the extra +2 detect is better than keen senses. (Which also stacks with the racial elf bonus to detect, which again, are better than keen senses)
Re: Keen senses - Rogue? Ranger?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:30 am
by Sockss
Accidental repost deleted!
Re: Keen senses - Rogue? Ranger?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:31 am
by Sockss
Ahhh. Delete my awful button press. I hate my phone.
Re: Keen senses - Rogue? Ranger?
Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:14 pm
by naturaly
Those very good points! For me though, I want detect for RP more than fight. So I want it always on, no only in a combat mode. I no want to miss people. But about placement be so important, you are so right. I am no master at it so need mobility still!!