Arelith

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:38 pm**

So - the benefits / flavors of the nobility background IMO need some work. While they do have real interactions with the two castles on Arelith its not really that big of a deal. I'd like to see them sort of represent the "bonuses" nobility would receive as adventuring members of a lineage.

I think if the reward was structured like:

For an increased ECL you can choose one of a few bonuses, feel free to come up with more that represent broad ideas of "nobility":

Stipend - you get a monthly amount of gold from your house.

Equestrian - you have had leisure to learn to ride and so receive a bonus to the skill and the feat combat riding.

Influence - your votes count for two people and you receive Epic Reputation as a feat to benefit from its bonuses.

Maybe have it set that if someone gets ennobled in game they receive Epic Reputation, but none of the pre-gift bonuses or ECL.

Really doesn't need much but at its current offering it doesn't bring much to the table.

Posted: **Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:29 am**

There is a gift for extra money. Will it work as a reward too? I wonder what is the domain of rewards and what is the domain of gifts.

There are probably a lot of minor and normal (and even greater) rewards lying about out there, waiting for something useful to spend them on. -ECL is not so useful as the ratio is small at the high levels which is where you actually need the xp boost, and not everyone wants to play the races unlocked by the minor to greater rewards.

Posted: **Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:14 pm**

It's easily the worst award choice you can take. I do like the concept of making their votes more weighted. However, my concern is the already prevalent abuse of the voting system (multiple characters to vote) will become even worse. The minor award is not hard at all to grind to. It's doable within 4~5 days with casual grinding and writs.

So, while I like that idea it's something to avoid till we implement a way for players to only vote once across their entire account per settlement election. Unless this is a thing already, as it was being discussed.

Posted: **Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:22 pm**

Only one character can vote per account in a settlement election, any other vote will be meaningless and any attempts to do so carry harsh consequences. That has been a thing for quite a long time.

Posted: **Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:48 pm**

As much as I appreciate and like the flavor of the influence gift that would most likely lead to an established ruling caste of noble PCs /which makes ~perfect~ sense/, I'd probably also have an inclination to look at it from the OOC fun perspective as well - here I'd suggest that there's enough PCs already, who have entrenched themselves in the office for far too long using the means available to them with the current leadership system.
And while yes, an organized group of new fresh "nobles" with this perk would most likely be able to easily replace the current leadership in the office, I'd be worried that then they'd be able to hold it pretty much for as long as they wanted to.

Posted: **Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:19 pm**

Ahh..why those mechanical bonuses...If any rewards need some more mechanical bonuses, then there are like all normal, greater and even some other minors....

And to noble reward...just give players option to get some title into your player name....Like "Lord" or "Baron"..etc...that would be neat

Posted: **Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:33 pm**

CptJonas wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:19 pm Ahh..why those mechanical bonuses...If any rewards need some more mechanical bonuses, then there are like all normal, greater and even some other minors....

And to noble reward...just give players option to get some title into your player name....Like "Lord" or "Baron"..etc...that would be neat :D

Or a “(Noble)” name tag, like the “(Disguised)” ones.

Posted: **Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:29 pm**

Kalopsia wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:33 pm
CptJonas wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:19 pm Ahh..why those mechanical bonuses...If any rewards need some more mechanical bonuses, then there are like all normal, greater and even some other minors....

And to noble reward...just give players option to get some title into your player name....Like "Lord" or "Baron"..etc...that would be neat
Or a “(Noble)” name tag, like the “(Disguised)” ones.

I'd rather want a description (in a golden color, for example) that states this character is wearing an insignia that marks them a noble. Similar to Radiant Heart knights, pirates, and so on. Disguise would obviously hide that.

Posted: **Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:57 pm**

It's literally just a certificate that your character is recognised as nobility, mechanically.

It isn't supposed to have major mechanical benefits, that would defeat the point of it. You're meant to RP as a noble. If you don't think you'll be able to RP as a noble, or at least learn as you go, then avoid the award.

It's not for mechanical benefit or vanity. It's for legitimacy. It's a lot of fun to learn about, and act out. You could technically RP as one without it, but you'd technically have no legitimacy, which nobody would be able to know without meta gaming it. If the award bothers you, ignore it.

Giving this mechanical or visible benefits would defeat the point of noble RP. An award isn't enough to make people acknowledge you. You have to walk the walk, and talk the talk. I would absolutely hate it if my character had some fixed, visible title on his description or in his name. It makes it shallow and only as deep as the mechanics will allow.

*EDIT* Though, I will say, free horse riding and horse feats would be amazing. Not opposed to THAT mechanical benefit.

Posted: **Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:22 pm**

What I am meaning and I think lots of folk are misunderstanding;

The background just has nothing really going for it. Giving it something that makes it worth taking isn't bad - not just from mechanics but from what nobility means in the realms. Being a noble means being connected. (You also do not have to take the background to be a noble or have any credo or claim to being one. You are in the same boat as the guy who one day started claiming he is one.)

But having some sort of flavor, a choice, that lets you represent how your background has affected you in influence, wealth, or maybe the privilege to learn horseback fighting are things that fit in the realmsian lore (roughly european in inspiration beyond some VERY OBVIOUS ORIGINAL CONCEPTS). It's nice fluff, it's not something that makes you a god.

and as it stands using a minor (which keeps you from reducing your ECL) for something that has almost 0 mechanical support is kind of not worth it at all. Might as well just start as a guy with -3 ECL and go; "I am Dave of the House of Nobility." Which is as legitimate as someone who took it.

Posted: **Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:24 am**

MissEvelyn wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:29 pm
Kalopsia wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:33 pm
CptJonas wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:19 pm Ahh..why those mechanical bonuses...If any rewards need some more mechanical bonuses, then there are like all normal, greater and even some other minors....

And to noble reward...just give players option to get some title into your player name....Like "Lord" or "Baron"..etc...that would be neat
Or a “(Noble)” name tag, like the “(Disguised)” ones.
I'd rather want a description (in a golden color, for example) that states this character is wearing an insignia that marks them a noble. Similar to Radiant Heart knights, pirates, and so on. Disguise would obviously hide that.

god, please no, no more of this stupid tag junk.

Posted: **Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:32 pm**

Nobility in Arelith feels as 'weak' as it does due to its unique nature here. Everywhere else in the Realms, the law puts nobles higher than regular citizens, in major cities like Waterdeep, for example. (See the code legal for an example on how nobles are protected more than the common citizen).

On Arelith, nobles and commoners are treated equally. Everywhere, save for those holds that a noble can acquire. But for everything else, a noble will be treated like a commoner. There's no benefit to taking citizenship as a noble over as a non-noble.

While we can agree respect is earned not given, there really isn't any sense of honor or respect towards your generic noble, but that's only because there's no incentive to. And that, again, does not line up with how the rest of the Realms take on nobility.

I think it's a bit of a shame, as we could make nobility a more attractive reward by giving them some IG boons in society, like a higher status in regards to the law. Not only making nobility more attractive, but also a status to be protected, awed, treasured, loathed, coveted, and so forth in regards to a noble citizen in a settlement.

Posted: **Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:56 pm**

MissEvelyn wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:32 pm Nobility in Arelith feels as 'weak' as it does due to its unique nature here. Everywhere else in the Realms, the law puts nobles higher than regular citizens, in major cities like Waterdeep, for example. (See the code legal for an example on how nobles are protected more than the common citizen).

On Arelith, nobles and commoners are treated equally. Everywhere, save for those holds that a noble can acquire. But for everything else, a noble will be treated like a commoner. There's no benefit to taking citizenship as a noble over as a non-noble.

While we can agree respect is earned not given, there really isn't any sense of honor or respect towards your generic noble, but that's only because there's no incentive to. And that, again, does not line up with how the rest of the Realms take on nobility.

I think it's a bit of a shame, as we could make nobility a more attractive reward by giving them some IG boons in society, like a higher status in regards to the law. Not only making nobility more attractive, but also a status to be protected, awed, treasured, loathed, coveted, and so forth in regards to a noble citizen in a settlement.

I agree. The thing is that in order to achieve this different treatment there’d have to be IC means of discerning nobles from commoners. So either there’s got to be some sort of insignia item or a name/description tag.

The insignia could be an item with an on use property that’d let nobles enter their noble house/faction in the character creation area - and otherwise just emotes how the character brandishes a symbol of [noble faction] when the unique property is activated.

Posted: **Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:38 pm**

Honestly I like all 3 of ropes' ideas. But dont choose, give it all 3. +6 to ride, votes count two, and 1k per month ig.

Posted: **Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:21 pm**

Be nice if it was adaptable to different races so the nobility tag isn't just about playing medieval human European knights. What would noble mean for elves, drow, duergar, orogs, hin etc etc?

Could be fun and kind of funny for a noble to summon a lackey or squire henchman who couldn't fight but who had an inventory you could access to make them carry your stuff.

Posted: **Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:22 am**

Sea Shanties wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:21 pm Be nice if it was adaptable to different races so the nobility tag isn't just about playing medieval human European knights. What would noble mean for elves, drow, duergar, orogs, hin etc etc?

Could be fun and kind of funny for a noble to summon a lackey or squire henchman who couldn't fight but who had an inventory you could access to make them carry your stuff.

Elves would be more or less the same thing, with that elven flavor to it.

Drow a house leader/major character in one of the prominent drow guilds.

Duergar would be more or less same as dwarves I'd assume.

Orogs I'd consider it as being a warlord of a captain/adviser to said warlord.

Really I'd just consider the culture and compare it to whatever modern day standard that you want. Because even in human nobility you could take from Kara-tur or whatever it's called. The east asian nobility for the most part.

Posted: **Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:16 am**

I kind of always figured that the "Nobility" reward would get whatever little flavor perks it gets with NPC recognition, and that it might make sense if it also got the gift of wealth rolled into it, to represent the noble family's ongoing investments and returns (in whatever that might be).

It's not a HUGE deal, but it's something, and it fits. While 1000 gold every month is chump change to an adventurer, it's more than enough to ensure a noble keeps an appropriately ostentatious roof over their heads come rent time, even if they decide to retire from adventuring for a decade.

Posted: **Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:14 am**

Red Ropes wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:22 pm and as it stands using a minor (which keeps you from reducing your ECL) for something that has almost 0 mechanical support is kind of not worth it at all. Might as well just start as a guy with -3 ECL and go; "I am Dave of the House of Nobility." Which is as legitimate as someone who took it.

They are more legitimate, as new PCs that are "noble" are met with scrutiny and criticism, while a character that lasts a month or more has a leg to stand on.

Posted: **Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:59 am**

Another minor boon that comes to mind would be to have NPC merchants treat nobles as a member of their favorite race, so nobles get better prices.
Alternatively perhaps a simple appraise bonus.

Posted: **Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:01 pm**

Kalopsia wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:56 pm I agree. The thing is that in order to achieve this different treatment there’d have to be IC means of discerning nobles from commoners. So either there’s got to be some sort of insignia item or a name/description tag.

The biggest problem is this: If you give people a way to mechanically prove they are a noble, they are no longer required to RP it believably. They have mechanics on their side. You could have a character concept that is not related to being a noble at all, then take the nobility award, and boom. You're a noble. Nobody can question it, you have proof. The people that will still RP disbelief at it are the minority. And being a noble is nearly always a good thing in people's eyes, in itself that's enough of a benefit. People will feel inclined to take it even if it has nothing to do with what they plan to RP, because noble = more valuable.

So when you have a whole bunch of people wearing the "noble" nametag but not actually RPing it in a believable fashion, it is detrimental to noble RP as a whole. It becomes the norm to not pay attention to it. It adds to your character's specialness factor and requires very little effort besides spending a reward.

My point is, the moment you dispel the mystery over whether or not somebody is a noble - is the moment that any RP done effectively becomes window dressing to a mechanical token. As it stands, if you want people to believe that your character is a noble, you have to earn it through cultivating a reputation. If you "Arch of Benwick" this situation, it will be detrimental for everybody. Your new character will still arrive on Arelith as a complete nobody, just the same as any commoner. There's no reason people should be able to automatically recognise somebody as a noble EXCEPT through IC reputation.

Nobility is a social construct. You have to validate it through social interaction. Not a nametag, description tag or physical item.

Posted: **Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:02 pm**

I'd love to see some quarters... particularly large ones, or guildhouse-style jobs, that are only ownable by Nobles. Then you've got your Actual Noble Houses that people can roleplay around. Enough room for a few people in each one, and some smaller rooms for retainers (that don't need a noble).

Maybe a couple in each distict of Cordor, plus the big house Holvin lives in on the farms which ain't doing much these days (at least, it wasn't last I checked).

Make playing a Derlson possible with a higher reward

Posted: **Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:08 pm**

On that note, maybe a fancy surface and UD meeting hall/ lounge that only nobles and their guests/employees may enter. It'd be a place where they could hang around and network with other nobles without being bothered by commoners.

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:33 am**

Noble would, and should, mean absolutely nothing mechanically to drow.

A noble drow bleeds just like a common drow, and frankly, there is so much mobility in rank, as fortunes rise and fall, that any kind of mechanical system would not only be out of date frequently, but it would also be ignored as of no consequence by literally everyone.

You can't see a background until after the corpse is on the ground anyways, and anyone going "I'm a noble, I can do what I want" is going to find themselves killed very quickly.

Now... something that might be cool, would be if people with the background had a special henchman summon(with no combat utility whatsoever) that they could emote through like a butler or maidservant.

Additionally, maybe nobles pay half the rental cost of a property, rather than full price.

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:36 am**

Power Groups within a CityEdit

There were two power groups within a drow city; the noble houses and the merchant clans.[59]
Noble HousesEdit
Drow 3E - Drow of the Underdark p11

A matron of the drow

See also: List of drow houses

Drow were ruled by their aristocracy, made up by the families that had the strength to violently occupy the best lands. Such Houses were founded by powerful drow individuals with special powers, who then passed their traits to their offspring (see under Noble Powers). Nobles also further augmented their abilities with magic items.[28]

Noble Houses constantly fought each other[7] but were also characterized by internal strife,[117] as it was actually expected in a society that followed the Way of Lolth.[22] Even though the power of the many Houses changed often, the few at the top usually remained stable.[98] Within a family, noble drow parents viewed their children as vehicles for their own advancement, including sacrificing them for some potential gain. Noble drow stayed with their family as children as a protection from outside violence, and as adults because Houses proved to be good tools for societal advancement.[28]

Noble drow families banded together for mutual protection and not out of affection.[28] The head of a noble House was a matron mother, a powerful priestess of Lolth. Below her, in descending order of influence, were the female members—also priestesses, ranked according to age—[117]the male officers (weapon master, House wizard, and patron—the matron's consort), and the other male members of the House (war-leaders, who answered to the weapon master, and House mages, subservient to the House wizard), who were also ranked according to age.[128] Below the non-officer males were servants and slaves. None of the ranks held by male drow or non-blood-related members had any job security. All it took was the matron's whim for their position to be changed. Females had absolute power within their household, and owned all the governmental and militaristic power within the city.[59] However, they held no authority until after puberty. Males never held any authority unless they managed to become an officer. In most cases a matron only lost her position if murdered by her eldest daughter. This usually marked a new direction for the House, sometimes even its destruction, because the murder of a matron was seen as a sign of disfavor from Lolth.[128]

While the nobles took the best lands and resources for themselves, the rest of the population was forced to care for themselves. Priestesses were bad rulers who tossed their cities into a haphazard organization.[98] Not only did their infighting paralyze the growth of their own cities,[115] but they actively undermined opportunities and chances for any form of development, in order to ensure that those below them didn't gain power (and with it, the option to turn away from Lolth).[129]

weird, it's almost like Drow actually do care about nobility.

Posted: **Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:10 am**

TimeAdept wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:36 am
snip
weird, it's almost like Drow actually do care about nobility.

There is a lot of drow lore we don't use, and like the above, it has virtually ZERO bearing on how the drow operate on Arelith.

Permadeath is not a thing, which means that PCs don't just die. There is upward mobility and downward mobility, and the roleplay on arelith has long since adapted to compensate. Nobility by birth is not something Arelith's drow recognise. Among drow here nobility is wholly ephemeral, and codifying it mechanically would never work. Houses are noble one day, and fallen the next; their members go from being nobles to commoners as soon as that happens. Then they join new or existant houses, and they might become nobles again, or they might never reach the rank ever again in their lifetime. Its always changing, because the PCs don't just rank up and then die permanently when their house collapses.

Nobility on the surface is a lot more stable, but also more varied. You have Sembian and Amnian merchant noble families, then you have cormyran feudal nobles, and other such. Being born in the proverbial purple means a lot more on the surface of Arelith than it ever will in the underdark.

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