Arelith

[TL;DR at the bottom]

Let's review:

Pale Master is a class with the sole requirement of non-good and 3 Arcane Caster levels prior to taking. This means, in terms of Arelith, either 3 Bard for a Melee PM or 3 Wizard for a Caster PM.

In return for faithful devotion to 16 levels (which there is absolutely no reason not to do outside of some desire for 4 APR), a Palemaster gets:
-10 typeless AC
-Immunity to Critical Hits (and subsequently Sneak Attacks, Stunning Fist, Quivering Palm, and Death Attacks)
-Immunity to all forms of Stun, Hold, and Paralysis
-Free ESF: Necromancy, so long as they have GSF
-Free Epic Mummy Dust
-Free Epic Dragon Knight
-Access to Epic Mage Armor at level 15
-Full CL to Necro spells
-Half CL to all other spells
-Special Necromancy spell bonuses, such as a Spell Level 2 damage shield that does an average of 30 unmitigated damage on biteback
-Increased Undead CL, which are themselves fairly overpowered at low to moderate levels
-A near-instant action, DC 38-42 touch-attack Fortitude vs. Death and Fortitude vs. Paralysis on a 10 minute cooldown.

What this amounts to, in terms of mechanics, is a class that's able to easily crank out 63+ undispellable AC (sometimes as high as the 80s for viable builds), is immune to major damage sources (Sneak/Death Attacks and Critical Hits), is immune to many forms of CC (Stuns/Holds/Paralysis), has a fairly decently sized HP pool (119 + CON/Toughness at level 16, compared to Wizard's d4 of 64 + CON/T, Cleric's d8 of 128 + CON/T and Barbarian's d12 of 192 + CON/T on the opposite ends of the spectrum), gets a number of summons (which are all immune to sneaks/crits as well), and gets near-full CL (full CL vs. Dispels and on Necromancy spells) if a caster.

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Now let's examine how this fits into the Arelith meta:
The minimum amount of damage one opponent has to be able to do to another to break even with them being able to outheal the damage via chugging heal potions like a Rookie at a Frat is 310.

The average AB of a one-handed Melee build is 49 (+/- 4 depending on weapon selection, class split, base race, & other related decisions). The average damage-per-hit (on a non-crit) is roughly 37 (+/- 15 depending on the same). This means top-end one-handed builds can barely land consistent hits and won't do enough damage to make it worthwhile. In all likelihood a PM could just heal kit the occasional blow that a melee build may land.
Two-handed builds add, effectively, 2-4 AB and up to about 10 damage on average. They also can't hit PMs fully and still can't do reliable damage.

If you build solely to be able to hit them (while not being a complete meme) as a Fighter 6/Paladin 4/CoT 20 or Paladin 16/CoT 10/Rogue 4, you end up with ~63 AB doing ~80 damage a swing. Which sounds good, until you realize that only two hits will be at 1d20 + 63 (if hasted) while the others are all at 58 and lower, until your likelihood of hitting is low to the point of obsolescence. You still can't critical hit them, meaning if you're dishing out 80 damage a hit with (generously) 4 hits a round, you can just barely break the 320 limit. This assumes, of course, that they have no elemental resistance essences which would mitigate ~5-20 a blow, depending on weapon selection, and subsequently drop the damage output to 240-300, which falls below the threshold.

"But Jack! PMs are notorious for their low saves!" Given the end-game ability of most builds to buff their lowest save and PM's only real weakness in the saves department being Reflex, a properly geared PM will never fail a save short of a 1.

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So let's look at what does hard-counter Pale Masters:
-Two Rogues using Exploding Holy Flasks to stack damage on it, if the PM opts to stand there and take it
-Two Druids casting Inferno or Spike Growth spam on it (but not one because that doesn't do enough damage)
-Lag to make the PM flatfooted and subsequently easier to hit
-Two Arcane Archers with high enough AC and Saves (somehow) to not get melted by the PM's summons/spells
-A pure-classed, level 30 Fiend-pacted Warlock.

That's right. The only single-person counter to the Palemaster (a non-good character) is a Fiendlock (another non-good character, but RP isn't what I'm looking at here; just mechanics).
How do they do it? They chug a Haste potion, summon their Balor/Pit Fiend, send it off to a corner to do nothing, use their Negative thingy to do CHA on damage, Banish the PM to get rid of its summons/ability to summon, then slam it with Ice Storms. This, mind you, still only does about 308 on average assuming both castings hit in a round, but it's the closest any build comes.
But then we factor in resistance to cold from an essence (or the feat!) and get -5 damage from the Cold, a Negative Energy Protection potion negates the blast damage, life-steal damage, and CHA mod damage so there goes about 100 damage off that from a single ward and proper gear. Anything other than Negative blast damage won't do enough to outdo the damage, but you can cast infinitely so at least you have that going for you. Which is nice. Eventually you can wear down a PM if they don't turn tail and escape, burning them out of all their potions out over the course of an hour.

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So if you've gotten this far and dealt with my ranting you might be wondering, "That's nice Jack, but surely you've come to the table with suggestions as to how to nerf PM, right?" And yes. I did.
Here are a few options:

Option 1 (at the LEAST this should be done): A slight nerf
-Remove their bonus AC. If it's hardcoded then this can be accomplished by applying a scaling Dodge AC debuff as they level.
-Give them ALL the Undead weaknesses. This means Heal now hurts them. Or just remove their ability to use Heal potions.
This option means they still have their big immunities and tankiness from EMA, but now there are some harder counters and they have to be more careful.

Option 2 (this is probably the most balanced): A sizeable nerf
-Remove their ability to take/use EMA (a la Trueflame).
-Give them ALL the Undead weaknesses. This means Heal now hurts them. Or just remove their ability to use Heal potions.
-Remove their immunities to Stun/Hold/Paralysis. If these are hardcoded, then change all formats of Stun/Hold/Paralysis to instead Daze, Confuse, or Fear on a failed save.
-Cut their bonus AC in half.
This option reduces their ability to tank drastically. It means PM melee tanks are still viable due to the free 5 AC and the immunity to Sneaks/Crits, but aren't the end-all be-all of melee tanks. It also means that they're more vulnerable to damage builds and have to play smarter around casters.

Option 3 (and my personal favorite): A complete nerf.
-Remove their ability to take/use EMA (a la Trueflame)
-Remove their bonus AC. If it's hardcoded then this can be accomplished by applying a scaling Dodge AC debuff as they level.
-Give them ALL the Undead weaknesses. This means Heal now hurts them. Or just remove their ability to use Heal potions.
-Remove all free bonus feats from 10/13/16 levels of any PM build that goes Bard as the pre-requisite class.
-Put a 10 level cap on any PM build that goes Bard as the pre-requisite class.
-Require not 3 levels of Arcane spellcasting, but the ability to cast level 5 spells for Wizard (and Sorc I guess, but no one does Sorc/PM outside of TF meme builds).
-Apply +1 ECL to Pale Masters.
This option drives them into the ground from where they are. Are they still viable? Yes. Are they as powerful? No. They lose all their AC, meaning they cap somewhere in the 40s probably. 50s, maybe, if they're a melee build.
Melee PM is still viable with this, but can't go into the later levels to get EMD/EDK from PM 15/16. They're locked as they get Crit Immunity.
Caster PMs still get their free EMD/EDK/ESF: Necro, but don't get the free 63+ AC on EMA and their base AC, and moreover can't take the class until at least level 9, which pushes their Undead progression back and makes them actually on-par with other casters their level.
There are hard counters to PM now, but they're still a potent threat and tank due to their ability to soak WM damage like it's nothing.
The extra +1 ECL means that there's a slower progression, to counter how absolutely pointless PMs make PvE (and also to punish players for their poor life decisions).

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Conclusion: I understand that the PM changes went in to make Caster PMs viable. That's fine, I guess. But now they're a little too viable and are basically Arelith EZ-Mode for both PvE and PvP. Cutting them down to fit the rest of the server doesn't mean completely ruining the class, though. There's a nice balance to be found between them being tanky and them being ridiculously broken, and we should strive to find it. Maybe it isn't in my options, and that's fine. Those aren't the only options available.

I understand some people may read the bit about them getting full Undead weaknesses and think, "But Jack! PM isn't a true Undead creature and thus shouldn't get those weaknesses!" And that's nice and all, thematically, but we're on a game where it's nice to have things balance out and actually have weaknesses. PM has no weaknesses. It's the server on Easy mode, and honestly can be crippling for a multitude of RP reasons that I'm not going to delve into, as this is supposed to be a mechanics thread. Long and short though, RP isn't as fun when one side can't be beaten.

Some people may think of PM as "the class that can't be killed, but also can't kill others" and in some cases this is sort of accurate, but given the number of free stuff they get to buff them up I would say they do a fairly good job at killing things.

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TL;DR: A properly equipped, semi-decently played Pale Master can't be killed due to its ridiculous tank powers and needs hard nerfs as it gets entirely too many bonuses. Read the nerf options if you're interested, there's no TL;DR for those.


thanks for coming to my TED talk

coming from a palemaster: i agree, i see one on every corner too.

I don't think that your specific changes, in their entirety, are what we need - I do think, however, that pale masters are exceptionally strong to the point of being comparable to a Jojo Antagonist (This is my stand, 「Five Finger Death Punch」, that has no weakness!) and are aggressively saturated in any place that isn't aggressively saturated with paladins and other noblebrights (The Underdark, Skal, anywhere not within 500 feet of Myon, Cordor town proper, or the RH guildhall). It's Arelith on rollerskates.

I do think, however, that pale masters are exceptionally strong to the point of being comparable to a Jojo Antagonist (This is my stand, 「Five Finger Death Punch」, that has no weakness!)

I love you.

I think cutting off the dracolich for free, and giving emd a little later would work well enough. Make them choose between ema or dracolich.

Honestly The helm that offers 26 spell resist makes anyone who has not invested 2-3 feats in spell pen as a PM have at least a 25% failure with anything but necromancy spells against you. Which you yourself say endgame toons can have high saves against. Can also be countered with a number of potions/scrolls cheaply.

Having 32+ spell resist means their non necromancy is useless. And While their AC is High their AB tends to be mediocre. WOF destroys all our summons no problem, and banishment means You cannot get them back quickly.

Being limited to 50AC when you yourself say AB tends to be up to 49 on other builds(A 90% hit chance) would make it rather pointless, esp if that AC include imp expertise making their AB even more trash.

They fact they are common can be annoying but more likely related to the token/rpr rating removal. I have met plenty of individuals perfectly capable of killing PM's just fine, and quite easily. Both Mage and Melee.

Having read your suggestions it sounds like you just want to have a class gutted for whatever justifications youve made up in your mind. All of those nerfs would make the class beyond weak and just ruin it for the majority of people invested in it so you can have an easier encounter with them. Their not fully undead as was clearly stated so they shouldnt be treated as fully undead for any reason... Their supposed to gain more AC and be tougher its their classes thing how does removing that outright make any sense.

If your gonna suggest a nerf as drastic as you've done it'd make sense to suggest some additions to even things out... not just scream that their too stronk n need to be brought down to size *beats chest*. Also i dont play a palemaster but to make this long drawn out thread basically suggesting they become cleric and paladin fodder is not easily ignored...

How to fix the pale master "problem":

Make them a major reward. *Smiles*

Szaren wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:35 pm How to fix the pale master "problem":

Make them a major reward. *Smiles*

That won't fix them. It just makes the few who exist stand out even more. Possibly even being powerbuilt to the maximum to abuse it. I've never been a fan of the concept of 'power classes' being locked behind RNG and dm application. If it's a weak class / equal strength, then I wouldn't care. But locking something that is by far painfully overpowered just will lead to angry grumbles.

asurion wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:53 pm Having read your suggestions it sounds like you just want to have a class gutted for whatever justifications youve made up in your mind.

dude i'm literally playing a pale master. my justification is that it's overpowered.

Don't make this a personal attack, man. It isn't classy, it isn't cool, and especially coming from someone who admits to never having played a Pale Master, a lot of credibility in your argument is quickly lost. I addressed all of your points in my initial post.


What some people seem to be forgetting is that unhasted Clerics also cap out at 50 AC without Expertise/Imp Exp.

As for the SR portion, non-Monk SR (i.e. racial and what you get from the SR helm) can be reduced by Breach (either Lesser Spell Breach, or ideally Greater Spell Breach/Mordenkainen's Disjunction) for ten rounds. Even a 32 SR race like Drow or Svirfneblin can be brought down to 22, which is only a 10% chance to fail. Is it more work? Yes. Does it mean that Pale Master is suddenly underpowered? Not really, considering that as is they have the AC to stand there and use a scroll on you.

Holy damn. Thank you, Jack.

I basically had the near same exact thoughts on PMs but never could bother with posting a feedback thread this detailed and well written.

Now about "locking PMs and then being done with them" :
No. That won't cut it. Would I like PMs to be locked? Yes. As Shadowdancers should be and as they should be refocused on being master sneaks instead of being good at tank and spanking PvE while also being decent at standing still while hidden.
But Shadowdancers are a topic for another time and another thread.

So back to PMs. Only locking them doesn't fix the damage that's been done. As it is with grandfathering and locking classes/races in general it only serves the purpose of exclusivity and RP flavor. It doesn't fix balance issues.
And currently there are a ton of balance issues. All of them well desribed by Jack up there.
So yeah, the class needs some heavy nerfs.

For anyone who might want to know when the last actual "nerf" to PMs occured?
07 Jul, 2018
Caster Level
------------
- The caster level bonus granted by Pale Master and Harper Scout no longer applies to the caster level of spells cast from items such as wands and scrolls.

Yeah. It was that long ago. And it's just been a bugfix if you want to be very strict about it. Since then it's been only buffs, even after the class got unlocked.


A last thing I'd like to say is that I remember the player of Bisik Willows (former leader of the Minmir Zhentarim, I still hate you for rolling your character you magnificent nugget of a man) saying something roughly like this :
"These buffs are too much."
He said that while being one of the servers most renowned PMs at the time. While the class was locked. About the buffs that came right before PMs got unlocked.
Should get your headgears grinding I think.

As a former PM, I agree strongly. My character was so unfair that it felt like I was cheating.

I could solo PVE almost anything on the server with literally zero risk. If you want to understand how, ask me sometime.

The next best thing I've tried building a super tank is nowhere close - and is gimped in the offensive department.

Jack Oat wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:00 pm

asurion wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:53 pm Having read your suggestions it sounds like you just want to have a class gutted for whatever justifications youve made up in your mind.

dude i'm literally playing a pale master. my justification is that it's overpowered.

Don't make this a personal attack, man. It isn't classy, it isn't cool, and especially coming from someone who admits to never having played a Pale Master, a lot of credibility in your argument is quickly lost. I addressed all of your points in my initial post.


What some people seem to be forgetting is that unhasted Clerics also cap out at 50 AC without Expertise/Imp Exp.

As for the SR portion, non-Monk SR (i.e. racial and what you get from the SR helm) can be reduced by Breach (either Lesser Spell Breach, or ideally Greater Spell Breach/Mordenkainen's Disjunction) for ten rounds. Even a 32 SR race like Drow or Svirfneblin can be brought down to 22, which is only a 10% chance to fail. Is it more work? Yes. Does it mean that Pale Master is suddenly underpowered? Not really, considering that as is they have the AC to stand there and use a scroll on you.

Its truly not a personal attack but when you say lets nerf one of the core features of a class and just that... it doesn't add up. The fact that you play the class and i don't doesn't make my opinion any less vaild. I said if your gonna suggest these huge nerfs it makes sense to have additions to balance it out, there is nothing mechanical about that. The things you suggested arnt gradual or minor nerfs to test the water and balance the class these are nerfs that invalidate entire builds and introduce a significant weakness.

Im not here to argue or attack but i certainly can see that dropping a nerf bomb on one of a classes core features and adding a glaring weakness with nothing to sustain its function is pretty extreme.

asurion wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:54 pmIts truly not a personal attack but when you say lets nerf one of the core features of a class and just that... it doesn't add up. The fact that you play the class and i don't doesn't make my opinion any less vaild. I said if your gonna suggest these huge nerfs it makes sense to have additions to balance it out, there is nothing mechanical about that. The things you suggested arnt gradual or minor nerfs to test the water and balance the class these are nerfs that invalidate entire builds and introduce a significant weakness.

Im not here to argue or attack but i certainly can see that dropping a nerf bomb on one of a classes core features and adding a glaring weakness with nothing to sustain its function is pretty extreme.

You know what, you're right. It should get something for its loss.
Something like maybe... I don't know, some kind of buffs to its summons, CL, maybe some free Epic Spell feats? Oh! We could give it some bonuses to powerful Necromancy spells, too. Also make sure both of its touch attacks are higher DC, can't forget that.

It absolutely adds up. Pale Master was buffed, but never nerfed. You preach about there not being tit-for-tat in my feedback, but in reality that should have been aimed at giving them some sort of weakness when it was first buffed.


And no, let's not play games with what you said. You said, and I'm quoting you here, "it sounds like you just want to have a class gutted for whatever justifications youve made up in your mind." That's a pretty pathetic way to try and invalidate my opinion. If you legitimately wanted to voice your opinion that it doesn't add up and that you feel there should have been some sort of bonus for all the loss, you would have come at me with mathematically supported arguments like all of mine are instead of personal attacks against "whatever justifications ive made up in my mind."

I've also thought about the problem with PMs, especially where they can't lose PvP unless they pointedly make a decision to do so, and one of the balance ideas I had was to change Bone Skin from AC to flat physical DR.

ex: Instead of +2 AC/4 lvls, they would get +1/- DR at the same increments, for a final +5/- vs physical at 16. (stackable with EDR)

However, I don't know how this would play into the meta, so I leave it to you to evaluate its viability.

The Rambling Midget wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:28 pm I've also thought about the problem with PMs, especially where they can't lose PvP unless they pointedly make a decision to do so, and one of the balance ideas I had was to change Bone Skin from AC to flat physical DR.

ex: Instead of +2 AC/4 lvls, they would get +1/- DR at the same increments, for a final +5/- vs physical at 16. (stackable with EDR)

However, I don't know how this would play into the meta, so I leave it to you to evaluate its viability.

DR is actually a pretty good idea, and a fitting one for the class (bones being tougher/harder to do real damage to the demi-corpse of a PM). If you stacked EDR 3 on a PM you would end up with 14/- DR. Average physical damage from a 1h melee build is ~31, +/- about 4. This would take off about half of that. Classes that do extra or unmitigated damage (i.e. Divine Might) would be fairly powerful against it.

Honestly, given how difficult it would be to line the feats up to get EDR 3, I wouldn't even be opposed to a direct translation of AC to DR. So instead of 10 AC at level 16, give them 10/- DR. If you invest the feats to get EDR 3 you could have a fairly potent tank, but it'd be somewhat debatable how well it did at anything else.

I dig it.

An adjustment to Pale Master has been in the works - there are some proposed changes that are awaiting developer review before being pushed / publicized.

While the planned changes are more modest than what is being proposed here, we are open to doing more if those changes prove insufficient. In the meantime, the detailed feedback is helpful and the suggestions are still useful as options to be considered in the future.

Please keep things civil and constructive.

Jack Oat wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:32 pm

The Rambling Midget wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:28 pm I've also thought about the problem with PMs, especially where they can't lose PvP unless they pointedly make a decision to do so, and one of the balance ideas I had was to change Bone Skin from AC to flat physical DR.

ex: Instead of +2 AC/4 lvls, they would get +1/- DR at the same increments, for a final +5/- vs physical at 16. (stackable with EDR)

However, I don't know how this would play into the meta, so I leave it to you to evaluate its viability.

DR is actually a pretty good idea, and a fitting one for the class (bones being tougher/harder to do real damage to the demi-corpse of a PM). If you stacked EDR 3 on a PM you would end up with 14/- DR. Average physical damage from a 1h melee build is ~31, +/- about 4. This would take off about half of that. Classes that do extra or unmitigated damage (i.e. Divine Might) would be fairly powerful against it.

Honestly, given how difficult it would be to line the feats up to get EDR 3, I wouldn't even be opposed to a direct translation of AC to DR. So instead of 10 AC at level 16, give them 10/- DR. If you invest the feats to get EDR 3 you could have a fairly potent tank, but it'd be somewhat debatable how well it did at anything else.

I dig it.

Barbarians and Dwarven Defenders with at least 10 Pale Master levels and built for damage reduction would be pretty scary in a melee fight with that suggestion.

Jack Oat wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:05 pm

asurion wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:54 pmIts truly not a personal attack but when you say lets nerf one of the core features of a class and just that... it doesn't add up. The fact that you play the class and i don't doesn't make my opinion any less vaild. I said if your gonna suggest these huge nerfs it makes sense to have additions to balance it out, there is nothing mechanical about that. The things you suggested arnt gradual or minor nerfs to test the water and balance the class these are nerfs that invalidate entire builds and introduce a significant weakness.

Im not here to argue or attack but i certainly can see that dropping a nerf bomb on one of a classes core features and adding a glaring weakness with nothing to sustain its function is pretty extreme.

You know what, you're right. It should get something for its loss.
Something like maybe... I don't know, some kind of buffs to its summons, CL, maybe some free Epic Spell feats? Oh! We could give it some bonuses to powerful Necromancy spells, too. Also make sure both of its touch attacks are higher DC, can't forget that.

It absolutely adds up. Pale Master was buffed, but never nerfed. You preach about there not being tit-for-tat in my feedback, but in reality that should have been aimed at giving them some sort of weakness when it was first buffed.


And no, let's not play games with what you said. You said, and I'm quoting you here, "it sounds like you just want to have a class gutted for whatever justifications youve made up in your mind." That's a pretty pathetic way to try and invalidate my opinion. If you legitimately wanted to voice your opinion that it doesn't add up and that you feel there should have been some sort of bonus for all the loss, you would have come at me with mathematically supported arguments like all of mine are instead of personal attacks against "whatever justifications ive made up in my mind."

Well im not playing games lol... thats how i feel about it not an attack and what you linked hasnt changed my mind on that at all. Sure it got buffs but removing like 6 to 10 ac from peoples build when thats a core feature with nothing to balance that what-so-ever is pretty drastic. Then also adding a pretty big weakness on top of it is just icing on the cake. If your feelings are hurt by my words i apologize about that but the point still stands. Like the fellow above said the summons can be destroyed and banished... people can gain immunity to kill spells and level drains so i dont see how thats valid justification for completely loosing the above especially when their additions to the class. I said nothing about the free feats or any of that so i dont know why its being brought up tbh. If those are the issues why not ask for them to be changed/reviewed or revoked....

I suggest you both clam down. Even then

not just scream that their too stronk n need to be brought down to size *beats chest*. Also i dont play a palemaster but to make this long drawn out thread basically suggesting they become cleric and paladin fodder is not easily ignored...

Consider that other's might take a good chunk of what you wrote as something directly trying to antagonize them. Even if it wasn't meant to be.

Kreydis wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:13 pm I suggest you both clam down. Even then

not just scream that their too stronk n need to be brought down to size *beats chest*. Also i dont play a palemaster but to make this long drawn out thread basically suggesting they become cleric and paladin fodder is not easily ignored...

Consider that other's might take a good chunk of what you wrote as something directly trying to antagonize them. Even if it wasn't meant to be.

Aye, i see that... no harm meant jack.

While I agree that PMs are out of control and need to get a stern talking to and get smacked back into place, I am double glad to hear that the suggested modus operandi will be to do it bit by bit to see what works and how much of a nerf is needed.

In the near past I feel those changes were often made too radically, which led to PMs basically getting someone's wet dream list of "things I'd like to have for my class" and other classes like Spellsword getting hit so hard, they're still reeling.

Rook wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:18 pm While I agree that PMs are out of control and need to get a stern talking to and get smacked back into place, I am double glad to hear that the suggested modus operandi will be to do it bit by bit to see what works and how much of a nerf is needed.

In the near past I feel those changes were often made too radically, which led to PMs basically getting someone's wet dream list of "things I'd like to have for my class" and other classes like Spellsword getting hit so hard, they're still reeling.

I agree entirely - spellsword got hit WAY too hard for what they deserved. They were a very strong class, and could be built well to great effect. However I think that what they got in exchange once they were nerfed was way too much. Still decent, yes - but nowhere near as good as even the classic standby builds. Certainly nowhere near as strong as Paladin or PM are today.

I also agree that they could do with a nerf, but definitely not as radical as suggested.

I would probably start by cutting some (or all) of their free epic feats, effectively forcing Palemasters to have to make choices, instead of getting everything for free. Maybe their AC could be lowered by 3 or 4 but not much more, else they begin to be fodder. Or if it is lowered further, their offensive potential should be increased.

Palemasters offensive potential is very bad. Summons are a joke, Word of Faith directly counters all of them, except the EDK which needs two Mords beforehand. That leaves a Palemaster with spells. Helm of Protection provides 26 SR, which provde a efty chance of flat-out avoiding any spell. Necromancy is a terrible school. Death Ward and Protection from negative energy makes you immune to pretty much everything.

If you argue that you can only kill a PM that lets itself be killed, them I argue that you are only killed by a PM if you let yourself be killed. The most offense they have are the non-SR aoes, which are mostly utility and IGMS mixed with a Timestop somewhere, which has a huge chance of failing. On top of that, they don't have the spell slots to pack that much offense power.

If you have a cleric or druid Spell Resistance no PM is ever going to touch you.

PM levels already only count as half a caster level. Don't ask they be nerfed, instead fight their summons like you would undead and enjoy the game. Really they can absolutely be beaten. Don't touch them.