Arelith

I've been doing some digging and wanted to ask a question - is the shadowmage, as a matter of lore, obliged to follow Shar directly? I understand that the shadow weave is directly and harshly controlled by Shar as directed on the wiki page for shadow mage, but is that an invention of the server or is that directly resultant from forgotten realms lore?

In essence - what's to stop a shadow mage from venerating Mask and using their power/drawing from it in a similar way, save for the (seemingly) arbitrary restriction that it's a fun clubhouse with the sign "Sharrans-only, Maskites go home" hung from the door?

This is more a conversation to explore the specific nature of the Shadow Mage and if we can use it to further explore opportunities for interesting RP and backstories. If I'm wrong somewhere, I'll accept that - if there's precedent for it being a Shar-only exclusive VIP ticket, then I apologize. I'll admit I'm not the most well-versed on forgotten realms lore. However, I see this as being an opportunity that would be really interesting to dig into.

While I don't have a very wordy and sourcebook-referenced answer to this, I know enough about the lore to say this much: Shar is the progenitor of the Shadow Weave, and to control it is oftentimes as much a power granted by Shar as it is one studied by its practicioners. Shadow mages are typically intensely faithful and jealously guard the secrets of the shadow weave, even from their fellows in faith, which creates a very insular magi society that hardly separates faith and study.

Howeverrrrr, lore has also referenced Vhaeraun as being the patron of the shadow weave among drow, though that may have come from later editions. Whether or not that patronage indicates stolen secrets from the goddess of darkness, or an MLM-style patronage between Shar and Vhaeraun going on, or something else entirely, I actually don't know. But it does indicate that one can worship other gods of shadow and earn control over the shadow weave. So while I believe there should be a deity restriction to the shadow mage path, I don't know whether it should just be restricted to Shar.

A while back I remember there was talk of a polytheism mechanic in the works, so characters could worship a primary and secondary deity. I don't know if that's still being worked on (or if the talk was ever true), but at the time I felt like it'd be perfect to add variety to Arelithian shadow mages.

There's Shadow Magic, and there's the Shadow Weave. Arelith's Shadow Mage is specifically a user of the Shadow Weave, which is only available to those who worship, or have made a pact with Shar. Currently, Shadow Mages are not treated in the same way as Warlocks, who can make a pact and worship another deity. That could change in the future, if the Devs decide to allow it, but for now the only way is to worship Shar.

I hope it gets opened up whenever the class is updated. Making them mechanically worship Shar seemed like a quick fix and temporary thing when the class was added not something that should be set in stone. At least expand the list to Mask, Shargaas and a few others with shadow affinity or just make Shadow Mages be neutral or evil like warlocks and let them worship who they want. It's not a divine class after all.

As I understand deities in Arelith and FR literature, you are not necessarily restrict to praying to just one, for RP purposes. Polytheistic cultures rarely survive when deities are seen as exclusive. If dwarves and elves worship a pantheon, then follower of Shar, or any other deity can pray beyond their own choice of deity from the arelith book.

Further, given Shar's nature and actions, it would make RP sense for a follower of Shar to hide behind worship to other deities. A quick google on Shar during the time of troubles in FR lore reveals that she disguised herself as Selune to sabatoge her enemies temple. Pretend to be a good elf, dwarf, gnome, or halfling but seek power behind the scenes for your own purposes (though the class as it stands is somewhat underpowered). Even drow who follow shar may want to keep that concealed, given Shar's nature. Just my humble opinion.

I actually like the idea of gating some sub-classes behind deities. If anything I think they should add more.
It would be like a Stormlord not worshipping Talos.

PS: Please add Stormlord subclass.

Archnon wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:20 pmAs I understand deities in Arelith and FR literature, you are not necessarily restrict to praying to just one, for RP purposes. Polytheistic cultures rarely survive when deities are seen as exclusive. If dwarves and elves worship a pantheon, then follower of Shar, or any other deity can pray beyond their own choice of deity from the arelith book.

This is true, and a Shadow Mage can RP worshiping more than one deity, but they can only pick the one mechanical deity if they want to cast spells, and that restricts certain favorable godsaves, which I'm sure plays a significant part in why people want the range expanded.

As I understand deities in Arelith and FR literature, you are not necessarily restrict to praying to just one, for RP purposes. Polytheistic cultures rarely survive when deities are seen as exclusive. If dwarves and elves worship a pantheon, then follower of Shar, or any other deity can pray beyond their own choice of deity from the arelith book.

Yes and I think Mihreas(?) even said as much when the class was added, that you could mechanically worship shar and serve another deity. However I think the character's selected deity should be their deity. Saying in this case you can technically pick Shar but worship something else goes against the spirit of things and may be one of those slippery slopes.

In sourcebooks I think you have to petition and pact with Shar (or one of her shadow allies, depending what you read) but it's not a matter of worshipping. Being a shadow mage shouldn't have to mean you're a Sharran (though of course many are) and as it's an arcane pursuit instead of a divine one it would be nice to make that distinction.

It seems to me like there is a distinction between RP restrictions and mechanical restrictions to improve gameplay.

RP purposes, Shadowmages are unrestricted. They have made a pact with Shar to use the shadoweave and likely are required to do some evil things in the process but can worship other deities that fit the character, or even claim to worship other deities.

Mechanically, they are restricted and it seems like it is part of the game play balancing act. You get access to hiding as a mage (HIPS as a mage is great, even given that the class is a bit flawed in requiring levels in shadowdancer to get hide and move silently). However, you lose access to crafting saves in the exchange, among other things. It is part of the calculus.

These are separate realms and you should make arguments for changes independent. Making an RP claim about how a mechanical restriction operates better come with a whopping helping of FR lore to gain traction and may require some balancing. If you want access to craft saves, then make an argument about balancing the shadowmage more properly, or actually don't because they are releasing a new version any day now

Make no mistake: You have to RP according to those mechanical choices. Shadow mages respect Shar and her dogma. That is the least of what is required in roleplaying a shadow mage. You can't just "mechanically" worship a deity without aligning yourself at all to their ideals or have any respect for them whatsoever. You can't have Shar as your primary deity and when someone asks you say, "Lol who's that." Not only is that bad RP, but I'm pretty sure it's also against the rules.

RP and mechanics are one and the same. There's no distinction. Mechanics aren't the beginning and end of what is possible to RP, of course - like has been mentioned, polytheism is encourage and expected in any FR setting - but I highly discourage any mindset that sees any sort of divide between RP and mechanics, where one can be ignored in favor of the other.

The Rambling Midget wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:31 pm This is true, and a Shadow Mage can RP worshiping more than one deity, but they can only pick the one mechanical deity if they want to cast spells, and that restricts certain favorable godsaves, which I'm sure plays a significant part in why people want the range expanded.

I think there's more reasons than that. I want it expanded because being a Sharran is a specific cultural thing and I think access to the shadow weave is supposed to be open to those outside her church (while still pacting or petitioning Shar, which is not the same as worship.) There's a lot more RP avenues opened up if you can worship a few different deities and that's a thing supported in what little sourcebook lore there is.

I think it would also de-stigmatize the subclass somewhat too. Very few people like Sharrans and when a shadowmage is "exposed" Shar worship is enough to make them an outcast. I've seen it below as well as above, many prominent underdarkers have little tolerance for Shar worship and shadowmages tend to be pretty lonely characters at least after they're inevitably exposed. Whereas if Shar worship wasn't required you could have shadow mages who could fit in to more (generally evil and or/academic) factions.

I think that one of the biggest problems with the Shadow Mage subclass is that OOC everyone knows both that they are Shar-worshipers and that they cannot cast Evocation spells besides Darkness. I've seen (and also heard other stories of) this knowledge getting abused to prompt PvP, and it's really easy to play this IC as the only justification you need is "my character is smart and is well-versed in this type of lore".

With the above reality, the Shar worshipers, who according to lore are supposed to be adept in trickery and deceit, are unable to fool their way out of a paper bag as any PC can walk up to them and say "cast a non-darkness evo spell or I kill you".

Opening the Shadow Mage subclass to the non-Shar crowd will enable the Shar crowd to actually be able to trick people.

Sea Shanties wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:04 pmI think it would also de-stigmatize the subclass somewhat too.

Why would we ever want that?

Sea Shanties wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:04 pmVery few people like Sharrans and when a shadowmage is "exposed" Shar worship is enough to make them an outcast.

Good. That's what they signed up for. Please, let's not have the outcast argument again. If you're going to play a shadowmage or a warlock or a blackguard or a pale master or whatever other non-good class, you have to accept that some people aren't going to like it, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It creates RP. If you don't want that RP, don't choose it.

*sighs*

De-stigmatize somewhat, not making them mainstream. Open up some RP possibilities while they're still obviously never going to operating openly in Cordor. A Shargaas worshipping Orog shadowmage perhaps, a Vhaeraunite drow, a Mask worshipping pirate-- all of these open vastly different RP than forcing one to be part of the cult of Shar.

I'm not arguing this further, I wasn't pushing for them to be beloved by paladins so don't you go there either or put words in my mouth. This is all about not making it into a divine class when it isn't one.

magistrasa wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:47 pm Make no mistake: You have to RP according to those mechanical choices. Shadow mages respect Shar and her dogma. That is the least of what is required in roleplaying a shadow mage. You can't just "mechanically" worship a deity without aligning yourself at all to their ideals or have any respect for them whatsoever. You can't have Shar as your primary deity and when someone asks you say, "Lol who's that." Not only is that bad RP, but I'm pretty sure it's also against the rules.

I would love some further clarification on this. I was under the impression that the followers of certain deities, shar being one of them, would rarely, if ever, openly reveal themselves to be members of that religion. They chose instead to operate in secret, working to undermine existing orders and create converts privately rather than shouting their religion to the rooftops... Bane comes to mind as another that this type of behavior is encouraged. Why would anyone, RP wise, be required to reveal who they worship. If they got caught at an alter sure, or summoning a demon, or outed by another member of the religion. In that sense, the evocation test seems pretty legit (assuming the character demanding it has some claim to knowledge in Lore), though I think a proper follower of Shar would act offended and likely attack the accuser rather than out themselves. Maybe the DM community can correct me, but it seems like revealing your religion, much like in real life, is a personal choice, so long as your actions follow from your religious convictions.

Archnon wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:48 pmI would love some further clarification on this.

Shar is a tricky one, in this aspect. You're not required to reveal your deity to others IC. You are, however, expected to know and reasonably abide by their dogma in your RP. What he's saying is that you can't just throw out that part of your character's RP and take the class purely for its mechanical benefits.

Ironically, while "lol who's that" would probably out you, because nobody's that ignorant, you'd still want to deny your deity in public, in the case of Shar.

The restriction is an RP-themed one (afaik)- like TRM said, Shar requires would-be users to worship her or pact with her, and Shar has the ability to stop anyone from using the Shadow Weave, just like Mystra does over the weave. I'm unfamiliar with the bit about Vhaeraun, but if I took a stab in the dark please don't kill me I'd say that it probably had to do with expanding her influence in the underdark to try to take more of Mystra's followers/influence.

I seem to recall the pact for non-worshippers involving a persistent bit of wisdom damage that would only go away if one converted.

TRM basically got the gist of what I was trying to say, sorry if I presented it confusingly. There's a wide difference between secretly worshipping an evil deity, and picking a deity purely for mechanical reasons and then ignoring everything associated with that deity so that you can RP worshipping something else entirely. It's like a sun elf worshipping Lolth just for the Trickery/W&D saves, and literally nothing in their roleplay/backstory/characterization has anything to show for that deity choice. That's Bad Roleplay.

I love the stormlord idea, but honestly, I think the tedium and inconsistency that deity-specific, or even area-specific (2E had lots of classes allowed for only inhabitants of certain kingdoms) creates, isn't healthy.

Let's say in the future, the dev's write in a new shadowy deity that subsumes Shar. Or maybe Dev's let some other deity steal part of her portfolio, and gain access to the Shadow Weave. Is this going to invalidate the class? Does the class have to be blocked if Shar dies? Or just consider how many deities are eventually revealed to be aspects of larger deities. I forget which but one of the big elf deities is actually an aspect of Selune.

The name and specific personality isn't what's important, so much as the portfolio and panpsychic ideals associated with the class.

Typically a shadow adept (Shadowmage on Arelith) is supposed to bargain with Shar and lose a piece of their mind (-2 Wisdom in D&D I think) To gain access to the shadow weave. There are supposedly exceptional cases where you can avoid that portion of it, but Worshiping Shar as your patron is a must typically.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Shadow_Weave

I would say that in regular D&D people are supposed to worship more than one god, and aren't necessarily as dogmatic and singular as they are on Arelith. Shar may be your patron but you may still say a prayer to Umberlee for a safe voyage across the seas.

An outed shadow mage may be shunned by their peers, however asking them to cast evocations to me is a bit cheesy. During the Arelith time period I don't think Shar has made the Shadow Weave public, and those without access to it would not really know how it works. Playing dumb like you don't know the source material IC can lead to interesting RP, maybe having you follow the home? To each their own of course.

If meta gaming or being 'outed' is a concern enabling shadow mages to cast evocation(still disallowing 'light') and transmutation at the -4DC and -4 caster level for those schools would be nice. Supposedly powerful shadow mages can still use spells of those other schools at high levels, just to poor effect. Maybe make it -6 caster level?

CosmicOrderV wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:45 pm I love the stormlord idea, but honestly, I think the tedium and inconsistency that deity-specific, or even area-specific (2E had lots of classes allowed for only inhabitants of certain kingdoms) creates, isn't healthy.

Let's say in the future, the dev's write in a new shadowy deity that subsumes Shar. Or maybe Dev's let some other deity steal part of her portfolio, and gain access to the Shadow Weave. Is this going to invalidate the class? Does the class have to be blocked if Shar dies? Or just consider how many deities are eventually revealed to be aspects of larger deities. I forget which but one of the big elf deities is actually an aspect of Selune.

The name and specific personality isn't what's important, so much as the portfolio and panpsychic ideals associated with the class.

I would say that magic use, or use of the Regular weave is already specific to one deity already. Mystra. She just does not require a bargain directly with her to access it. However in the past such as Karsus's folly when he tried to take the body of Mystryl for a time, his inability as a mortal to maintain weave cause ALL magic to collapse.

Similarly the spell plague was caused in part by Shar's miscalculation that the Shadow weave(existing in the gaps of Mystra's) could continue without its reflection. When Mystra died the Weave failed again, and so did the shadow weave. Best as I remember anyway, but I think the precedent for magic being tied to the deities that control it is always there.

BHR55 wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:05 pm An outed shadow mage may be shunned by their peers, however asking them to cast evocations to me is a bit cheesy. During the Arelith time period I don't think Shar has made the Shadow Weave public, and those without access to it would not really know how it works. Playing dumb like you don't know the source material IC can lead to interesting RP, maybe having you follow the home? To each their own of course.

If meta gaming or being 'outed' is a concern enabling shadow mages to cast evocation(still disallowing 'light') and transmutation at the -4DC and -4 caster level for those schools would be nice. Supposedly powerful shadow mages can still use spells of those other schools at high levels, just to poor effect. Maybe make it -6 caster level?

This is a fantastic idea and would help out Shadow Mages a great deal. Due to the PW nature of Arelith, it only takes one bad faith "RP" moment to permanently out an evil character and knock off any good storylines that player was planning for themselves and others. Removing the evocation test cheese would enable Shadow Mages to actually be deceitful.

BHR55 wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:10 pm ...

I definitely wont argue that there isnt some precedent, im just saying it's less interesting because of its potential for inconsistency. Notice this doesn't exactly answer any of my rhetorical questions :p

That said, I would actually point out the language regarding mystra and her ilk. Words like Control, Provide, Incarnation. She has lesser aspects, Savras and Azuth. The over god Ao creates and personalities manifest from the creation. Selune and Shar. The sisters create, and personalities manifest: Mystryl and Chauntea. The language is always representative. Gods as beings are anthropomorphic personifications. They are humanoid represenations of abstract ideals. This means the focus, or importance, lies with the idea, more than the personification. When we tie mechanics to mutable, changing symbols and names, it creates some inconsistency because the personification was never what really mattered, it was the ideal. Of course if the world never changes then this probably isnt an issue that will come to light. But this is arelith! Change and conflict are the name of the game

TroubledWaters wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:35 pm

BHR55 wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:05 pm An outed shadow mage may be shunned by their peers, however asking them to cast evocations to me is a bit cheesy. During the Arelith time period I don't think Shar has made the Shadow Weave public, and those without access to it would not really know how it works. Playing dumb like you don't know the source material IC can lead to interesting RP, maybe having you follow the home? To each their own of course.

If meta gaming or being 'outed' is a concern enabling shadow mages to cast evocation(still disallowing 'light') and transmutation at the -4DC and -4 caster level for those schools would be nice. Supposedly powerful shadow mages can still use spells of those other schools at high levels, just to poor effect. Maybe make it -6 caster level?

This is a fantastic idea and would help out Shadow Mages a great deal. Due to the PW nature of Arelith, it only takes one bad faith "RP" moment to permanently out an evil character and knock off any good storylines that player was planning for themselves and others. Removing the evocation test cheese would enable Shadow Mages to actually be deceitful.

It would be nice, and representative of a Shadow mages reduced ability to manipulate matter and the elements. At lower levels especially your fireball at level 5 Wiz would be weaker at 1d6 than magic missile(assuming I remember this correctly). This idea is not wholesale my own, I forget which book/source I pulled it from, otherwise I would link it.

I wonder if it would be difficult to adjust, or add to the existing code that buffs Necro, enchant, illusion with debuffs to the other schools. Or if it requires a dev to tag each spell in a table.

CosmicOrderV wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:00 pm

BHR55 wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:10 pm ...

I definitely wont argue that there isnt some precedent, im just saying it's less interesting because of its potential for inconsistency. Notice this doesn't exactly answer any of my rhetorical questions :p

That said, I would actually point out the language regarding mystra and her ilk. Words like Control, Provide, Incarnation. She has lesser aspects, Savras and Azuth. The over god Ao creates and personalities manifest from the creation. Selune and Shar. The sisters create, and personalities manifest: Mystryl and Chauntea. The language is always representative. Gods as beings are anthropomorphic personifications. They are humanoid represenations of abstract ideals. This means the focus, or importance, lies with the idea, more than the personification. When we tie mechanics to mutable, changing symbols and names, it creates some inconsistency because the personification was never what really mattered, it was the ideal. Of course if the world never changes then this probably isnt an issue that will come to light. But this is arelith! Change and conflict are the name of the game

So far as I know, and I am going to paraphrase here because I am at work, The Dead Three pissed off AO and he basically slapped all the gods down to live as mortals and now expects them to listen to their followers and actually represent their domains. They have to actually embody and represent their ideals, or fight and take another gods aspects for their own. I imagine if someone actually killed Shar, since she lives on the shadow plane that she created. They could potentially take over the shadow weave and make it open, or lock it down as they wish. I think the gods are more than just personalities since many were mortals, the pantheon actually walks among their followers, not just some pie in the sky concept in forgotten realms. However I do see what you mean about the language, and FR lore is inconsistent often times anyway.