Arelith

Since a monk using a quarterstaff follows the monks unarmed attack progression, is to 20/10 build the recommended build for a QS using monk?

Not unless you hate feats and are going Human.

Keep in mind that you don't get unarmed damage on any portion of the dual weilded quarterstaff anymore, it's 1d6 on both ends.

If I were to make a QS "monk" at this point, it would probably only have 4-5 levels of monk (depending on how much I want that +1 monk AC). For the rest I would do something along the lines of 21 ranger/4-5 rogue or 6 fighter/19 rogue. Nothing amazing here, but either way would be a reasonably playable Dex melee character.

Baron Saturday wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:54 am If I were to make a QS "monk" at this point, it would probably only have 4-5 levels of monk (depending on how much I want that +1 monk AC). For the rest I would do something along the lines of 21 ranger/4-5 rogue or 6 fighter/19 rogue. Nothing amazing here, but either way would be a reasonably playable Dex melee character.

If you're doing 19 rogue levels then 6 monk/5 fighter seems best to me. 6 monk is a speed boost and free KD/imp KD feats and you can still get epic weapon specialization. Or is there a reason you'd do 5 monk and 6 fighter instead?

19 rogue 6 monk 5 ranger is fun too

The build is 21 ranger, 6 monk, 3 rogue. I'd say it's the most optimal class/lvl progression

18 rogue, 6 monk, 6 fighter used to be a thing but due to rogue buffs, removing the monk for more rogue lvls and going rapier+dagger is objectively stronger.

Ebonstar wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:31 am 19 rogue 6 monk 5 ranger is fun too

This really isn't a good split. You don't get Improved Dual-Wielding or Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, which are both objectively necessary on any dual-wielding build.
While tracking and trackless step are nice, the loss of 6 damage (4 vs. the 3 FEs you can get), an entire APR at second-to-top AB, and the loss of 1-3 feats that you can use makes it not worthwhile.

As others have said, the best option for Monk in its current state is to do no more than 6 levels for the IKD and 20% movement speed increase. If you're so inclined you may be able to bump that up to 9 depending on the build, though to diminishing returns.

If you're hard-set on doing 20 Monk levels and using a Quarterstaff, I guess you could do the old 21 Monk/6 Fighter/3 Rogue thing and pick up dual-wielding on it. I don't recommend it, I don't think it'd be particularly good, but yeah.

IMO the best quarterstaff build is the Ranger 21/Monk 3/Assassin 6 (or Ranger 21/Monk 6/[Bard or Rogue] 3 if you don't want to do evil). It gets solid per-hit damage even on a non-sneak due to Favored Enemy and Bane of Enemies, high AB due to being a predominately 1/1 BAB class and +4 from Blade Thirst, has a high HP pool and increased survivability due to the vampiric regeneration from Blade Thirst, higher AC than most builds due to both DEX and WIS being primary stats as well as the dual-wielding AC from Ranger, and (if you go the Assassin route) can inflict an extra 9 damage per hit on -assassinate.

Sea Shanties wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:03 am If you're doing 19 rogue levels then 6 monk/5 fighter seems best to me. 6 monk is a speed boost and free KD/imp KD feats and you can still get epic weapon specialization. Or is there a reason you'd do 5 monk and 6 fighter instead?

I just don't like the idea of waiting until epic levels to get KD.

Baron Saturday wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:09 pm

Sea Shanties wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:03 am If you're doing 19 rogue levels then 6 monk/5 fighter seems best to me. 6 monk is a speed boost and free KD/imp KD feats and you can still get epic weapon specialization. Or is there a reason you'd do 5 monk and 6 fighter instead?

I just don't like the idea of waiting until epic levels to get KD.

tbh one of the better splits, because of this, is Rogue (or Assassin) 19/Fighter 8/Monk 3. You get IKD pre-epic still, albeit at the cost of 10% movement speed.

So sounds like unarmed is the only real way to go now for anyone wanting to play a monk with more than a few monk lvls, but with stunning fist crap now, is it worth unarmed anymore? If you want to use weapons it sounds like a small dip is the only real way to go.

JubJub wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:31 pm So sounds like unarmed is the only real way to go now for anyone wanting to play a monk with more than a few monk lvls? but with stunning fist crap now, is it worth unarmed anymore? If you want to use weapons it sounds like a small dip is the only real way to go.

And now you understand why high-level Monk isn't that wonderful in any real offensive capability.

Jack Oat wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:45 pm

JubJub wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:31 pm So sounds like unarmed is the only real way to go now for anyone wanting to play a monk with more than a few monk lvls? but with stunning fist crap now, is it worth unarmed anymore? If you want to use weapons it sounds like a small dip is the only real way to go.

And now you understand why high-level Monk isn't that wonderful in any real offensive capability.

Well... Not going to argue with Jack about builds. But...
Playing a fist monk 20/5/5 as my current main and my damage is 1d20 + 3 str + 2 belt with weapon spec + 4 physical + 4 essence + 1d4 rune. Its MUCH better than it used to be a couple of years back and its not entirely terrible from my personal experience.

Edit: Stunning fist is shit.

Baron Saturday wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:09 pm

Sea Shanties wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:03 am If you're doing 19 rogue levels then 6 monk/5 fighter seems best to me. 6 monk is a speed boost and free KD/imp KD feats and you can still get epic weapon specialization. Or is there a reason you'd do 5 monk and 6 fighter instead?

I just don't like the idea of waiting until epic levels to get KD.

Makes sense, though between choking powder, darkness wands and inherently lower AB I don't feel like a rogue/monk needs KD as early as a more direct fighter. Still, you'd have to put off that 6th monk or 5th fighter to level 30 which means an awful long wait for either KD or epic weapon specialization.

Astral wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:31 pm

Jack Oat wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:45 pm

JubJub wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:31 pm So sounds like unarmed is the only real way to go now for anyone wanting to play a monk with more than a few monk lvls? but with stunning fist crap now, is it worth unarmed anymore? If you want to use weapons it sounds like a small dip is the only real way to go.

And now you understand why high-level Monk isn't that wonderful in any real offensive capability.

Well... Not going to argue with Jack about builds. But...
Playing a fist monk 20/5/5 as my current main and my damage is 1d20 + 3 str + 2 belt with weapon spec + 4 physical + 4 essence + 1d4 rune. Its MUCH better than it used to be a couple of years back and its not entirely terrible from my personal experience.

Edit: Stunning fist is shit.

You do 26 damage/hit across 7 APR, hasted with Flurry of Blows turned on, and your top AB is 38 with Flurry of Blows on. I've played several fist-based Monks of differing builds, I know the pain of those builds. I speak from personal experience when I say that they're severely lacking in the "Offensive Capability" department.

If its not too much to ask it would be fantastic if someone could elaborate a little bit about this 21 ranger/6monk/3bard build. What feats to take and the progression of it? Also the stat spread? Would this build want high dex, wis and str then? Im not great with builds and mechanics myself but this sounds very interesting!
Thanks in advance.

Elf
STR: 10
DEX: 20 (gift) (28)
CON: 14 (gift)
WIS: 14
INT: 14
CHA: 8

01: Ranger(1): Strong Soul, {Dual Wield}
02: Ranger(2)
03: Ranger(3): weapon finesse
04: Monk(1): DEX+1, {Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist}, (DEX=21)
05: Monk(2): {Deflect Arrows}
06: Monk(3): weapon focus: QS
07: Ranger(4)
08: Ranger(5): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
09: Ranger(6): expertise
10: Ranger(7)
11: Ranger(8)
12: Ranger(9): DEX+1, impprove crit, {Improved Two-Weapon Fighting}, (DEX=23)
13: Ranger(10)
14: Ranger(11)
15: Ranger(12): blind fight
16: Ranger(13): DEX+1, (DEX=24)
17: Ranger(14)
18: Ranger(15): impproved expertise.
19: Ranger(16)
20: Ranger(17): DEX+1, (DEX=25)
21: Ranger(18): epic weapon focus
22: Ranger(19)
23: Ranger(20)
24: Ranger(21): DEX+1, bane of enemies, (DEX=26)
25: Monk(4)
26: Monk(5)
27: Monk(6): great dexterity I, {Knockdown, Improved Knockdown}, (DEX=27)
28: Bard(1): DEX+1, (DEX=28)
29: Bard(2)
30: Bard(3): blinding speed or epic: discipline

I'd honestly delay monk til epic for an extra BAB.

Astral wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:22 am Elf
STR: 10
DEX: 20 (gift) (28)
CON: 14 (gift)
WIS: 14
INT: 14
CHA: 8

01: Ranger(1): Strong Soul, {Dual Wield}
02: Ranger(2)
03: Ranger(3): weapon focus: QS
04: Monk(1): DEX+1, {Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist}, (DEX=21)
05: Monk(2): {Deflect Arrows}
06: Monk(3): expertise
07: Ranger(4)
08: Ranger(5): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
09: Ranger(6): improved expertise
10: Ranger(7)
11: Ranger(8)
12: Ranger(9): DEX+1, impprove crit, {Improved Two-Weapon Fighting}, (DEX=23)
13: Ranger(10)
14: Ranger(11)
15: Ranger(12): blind fight
16: Ranger(13): DEX+1, (DEX=24)
17: Ranger(14)
18: Ranger(15): toughness or iron will
19: Ranger(16)
20: Ranger(17): DEX+1, (DEX=25)
21: Ranger(18): epic weapon focus
22: Ranger(19)
23: Ranger(20)
24: Ranger(21): DEX+1, bane of enemies, (DEX=26)
25: Monk(4)
26: Monk(5)
27: Monk(6): great dexterity I, {Knockdown, Improved Knockdown}, (DEX=27)
28: Bard(1): DEX+1, (DEX=28)
29: Bard(2)
30: Bard(3): blinding speed or epic: discipline

You forgot weapon finesse.

Oh! you're right!

I corrected the build accordingly.

Delaying monk till epics is objectively better but in a trade-off it also blooms much later. There's no doubt that it IS better for your bab and quicker BoE if you delay monk till epics.