Arelith

Irongron wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:33 pm I can totally see where you and the original poster are coming from with thes points. I'm happy with the update, and it's most welcome, but I do think we should take this point on board when considering future updates.

Richørd wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:16 amWeapon finesse for everyone sounds like a bad idea. That would be a buff to some builds that don't need it.

CosmicOrderV wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:49 am

Irongron wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:33 pm I can totally see where you and the original poster are coming from with thes points. I'm happy with the update, and it's most welcome, but I do think we should take this point on board when considering future updates.

This was something Irongron said in regards to making sure things 'make sense' in game, specifically PaleMaster AC and how it doesn't make a lot of sense that it's dodge. The emphasis here being that changes ought to preserve the server's integrity. Keep it immersive. Keep it logical.

Rogue shouldn't be the only one who can use grenades. Saying that it ought to be rogue-only in order to give that class a sense of uniqueness, is about as hamfisted as saying that because wizards get scribe scroll, they should be the only one who are allowed to use scrolls. It doesn't make sense.

CosmicOrderV wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:49 am

Irongron wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:33 pm I can totally see where you and the original poster are coming from with thes points. I'm happy with the update, and it's most welcome, but I do think we should take this point on board when considering future updates.

This was something Irongron said in regards to making sure things 'make sense' in game, specifically PaleMaster AC and how it doesn't make a lot of sense that it's dodge. The emphasis here being that changes ought to preserve the server's integrity. Keep it immersive. Keep it logical.

Rogue shouldn't be the only one who can use grenades. Saying that it ought to be rogue-only in order to give that class a sense of uniqueness, is about as hamfisted as saying that because wizards get scribe scroll, they should be the only one who are allowed to use scrolls. It doesn't make sense.

CosmicOrderV wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:36 pm We're more creative than that! "NWN isn't about making sense," is the same lazy copout as saying, "It's magic" as if it resolves of any need for consistency or explanation. Even magic requires consistency. A universe requires parameters. Once people figure these out, it will "make sense."

Recall the talk about blackguards? Paladins are paragons of their alignment, as you put it. Their holy power is adjacent to a deity, not directly from it. Meanwhile a cleric's power is from their ability to sympathetically discern the will of their god. They're not the same, and their powers manifest differently. This is where we can suspend belief, that because the classes have different themes, they also have different abilities. What's more, if one were to feel like their cleric character should be able to smite, dip paladin! It's not a bad choice for some clerics builds, as it also gets you a discipline source. And that's the sort of concept building I think ought to be encouraged! Mix and match what you want for a story and character, among the presented themes, until it also manifests in a build with mechanics you enjoy.

Paladins summoning a horse, while something they used to be able to do in 3.0, honestly makes no sense, and I'm glad they can't. Blackguards summoning, on the other hand, does make sense, 'cause they're just martial warlocks.

Jack Oat wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:32 pm I've read through some of this and I'm concerned that the topic is becoming "Should we give Rogue Grenades to other classes?" So I'll divert this quickly by amending my earlier suggestion/thoughts. I'm with Ork, certain classes can and should have certain, unique abilities. Rogues having grenades is good for them and mitigates a lot of problems with the class otherwise.

Some of their other abilities/bonuses, however, could be dispersed to other classes without sacrificing much. Lightly Armored, extra AB on "Rogue" (or Simple) weapons as it is now, stealth movement speed, and Weapon Finesse for free are main things that I'd like to see shared with other classes. Particularly, going through the list of stuff they get:

1) Lightly Armored given to Rangers and Assassins. This would do well to make DEX Rangers who don't want to dip Monk more viable, but I also understand that they already have their dual-wielding AC. Perhaps give them 1 extra AC for every 6-8 levels, instead of 3, to offset this? As for Assassins, they're a recurring theme in my "List of Things to Buff Please Irongron for the love of God."

2) Extra AB on "Rogue" weapons given to Shadowdancers and, especially, Assassins. Assassins in particular suffer from super low AB and no real way to mitigate this except through standard UMD tactics (not unlike how Rogues once were). Giving them an AB bonus like this would help make them a more viable class. Shadowdancers also suffer from the same low-AB conundrum, but in all honesty the class needs something of a rework to be made more viable in PvE.

3) Stealth Movement Speed given to every class with Hide, Move Silent, and Evasion as class skills/feat, but removed for anyone who does 6+ Monk and reduced by 10% for anyone with 1-5 Monk levels. It's kinda silly that a Ranger can't stalk the woods faster than a casual strolling pace, or a Shadowdancer (who in PnP get the ability to teleport from shadow to shadow) loses out to anyone moving at anything more than a slow walk.

4) Weapon Finesse to Literally Everyone. No, seriously. It makes no sense not to be super dexterous but have to spend an entire feat to learn how to have slightly more AC and much, MUCH less damage than other builds. So little sense, in fact, that they outright make everyone have DEX to AB in 5e. Not only that but DEX builds in 5e get DEX to AC, AB, and damage-- though that isn't what I'm suggesting for Arelith because I don't want a DEX-run meta as much as the next person.

5) Blinding Speed Cooldown decrease to every class with Hide, Move Silent, and Evasion as class skills/feat. Have it work the same way, removing 1 turn from the CD for every 6 levels of said class.

So what do Rogues get to keep for themselves out of this? Grenades (EVERYTHING having to do with Grenades are still a Rogue-only thing), AB out of Stealth, Detection Bonuses (though I wouldn't mind seeing this outright removed to be honest), d8 HD as a class over some of the other "stealth" classes, and Sword & Dagger.

Jack Oat wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:32 pm I've read through some of this and I'm concerned that the topic is becoming "Should we give Rogue Grenades to other classes?" So I'll divert this quickly by amending my earlier suggestion/thoughts. I'm with Ork, certain classes can and should have certain, unique abilities. Rogues having grenades is good for them and mitigates a lot of problems with the class otherwise.

Some of their other abilities/bonuses, however, could be dispersed to other classes without sacrificing much. Lightly Armored, extra AB on "Rogue" (or Simple) weapons as it is now, stealth movement speed, and Weapon Finesse for free are main things that I'd like to see shared with other classes. Particularly, going through the list of stuff they get:

1) Lightly Armored given to Rangers and Assassins. This would do well to make DEX Rangers who don't want to dip Monk more viable, but I also understand that they already have their dual-wielding AC. Perhaps give them 1 extra AC for every 6-8 levels, instead of 3, to offset this? As for Assassins, they're a recurring theme in my "List of Things to Buff Please Irongron for the love of God."

2) Extra AB on "Rogue" weapons given to Shadowdancers and, especially, Assassins. Assassins in particular suffer from super low AB and no real way to mitigate this except through standard UMD tactics (not unlike how Rogues once were). Giving them an AB bonus like this would help make them a more viable class. Shadowdancers also suffer from the same low-AB conundrum, but in all honesty the class needs something of a rework to be made more viable in PvE.

3) Stealth Movement Speed given to every class with Hide, Move Silent, and Evasion as class skills/feat, but removed for anyone who does 6+ Monk and reduced by 10% for anyone with 1-5 Monk levels. It's kinda silly that a Ranger can't stalk the woods faster than a casual strolling pace, or a Shadowdancer (who in PnP get the ability to teleport from shadow to shadow) loses out to anyone moving at anything more than a slow walk.

4) Weapon Finesse to Literally Everyone. No, seriously. It makes no sense not to be super dexterous but have to spend an entire feat to learn how to have slightly more AC and much, MUCH less damage than other builds. So little sense, in fact, that they outright make everyone have DEX to AB in 5e. Not only that but DEX builds in 5e get DEX to AC, AB, and damage-- though that isn't what I'm suggesting for Arelith because I don't want a DEX-run meta as much as the next person.

5) Blinding Speed Cooldown decrease to every class with Hide, Move Silent, and Evasion as class skills/feat. Have it work the same way, removing 1 turn from the CD for every 6 levels of said class.

So what do Rogues get to keep for themselves out of this? Grenades (EVERYTHING having to do with Grenades are still a Rogue-only thing), AB out of Stealth, Detection Bonuses (though I wouldn't mind seeing this outright removed to be honest), d8 HD as a class over some of the other "stealth" classes, and Sword & Dagger.

Astral wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:57 pmFirst of all I love nearly everything here. I think such boons will mostly just open new multiclassing options without making anything overpowered from what I can see so far. Except #5. Because it would mean builds like 20/10 monks (which already have a semi-speedhack) and ranger+rogue or assassin or SD will suddenly have perma-haste.. which is a bit broken. But other than that I really love the ideas here.